Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.
With a name like 1911smith
this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.
eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.
Many have. Most have not survived.
Have you read the Phase 1 test findings for the CQBP solicitation?
Just for clarity: I WANT ONE, TOO.
Yeah, I watched the video and listened about as close as just about anyone else might. I have had a good bit of interest in this solicitation since it appeared on my radar in late-2010 on NECO and FBO.
Some excerpts from the Initial Technical Evaluation Report:
5. A summary of the evaluation of the Offerors follows:
a. [redacted]: Unacceptable.
a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference (d), paragraphs 3.5.3 and 4.6.3, one bid sample failed to fully interchange. The failing sample demonstrated an inability to function with the interchanged grip safety or any other grip safeties installed from the spare parts block.
b. Colt Manufacturing LLC: Unacceptable.
e. Parts Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples met the requirement for parts interchangeability...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.
c. [redacted]: Unacceptable.
a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference... three bid samples failed to fully interchange. Per enclosure (6), one sample would not lock closed, and two others displayed excessive lock up.
The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples
One of the offerors failed to meet the interchangeability criteria by one part of one pistol.
...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.
Not only did all parts have to interchange - they had to continue to meet dispersion (accuracy) testing requirements to meet the solicitation criteria.
You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.
Have ya got something better than a YouTube video to put up against official Marine Corps documents about the CQBP selection process?
To me - no combination of words involving "hand fitted," will also meet the solicitation and testing criteria. Every part of every pistol had to completely interchange with every part of every other pistol - no mixing and matching, no selecting mated pairs - complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples.
As you pointed out - and as I was aware - mixing and matching of parts until you find an acceptable match is still "hand fitting." This is why I included the full range of "hand fitting" covering the whole continuum from "standard production" to "full house custom." Pull ten standard 1070RGs at random from a shelf, and let's perform the "MIL-SPEC" test and see if they interchange completely. I'm voting "no."
Far from saying that Colt will release a lesser pistol, there's a good chance that the result of hand fitting will be a better pistol on a one to one basis than a production "M45A1."
if any amount of hand fitting, whether mixing and matching parts - or stoning and polishing them is involved - you are not getting what the solicitation requested - complete interchangeability. Not mostly interchangeable. Fully interchangeable. What does this amount to for the average civilian shooter who is not buying 4,000 pistols that they expect to maintain in forward deployed combat locations far from any qualified gunsmiths to conduct repairs? Probably not a lick.
Conceivably I can take a Colt factory M4A1, RO921HB - I can polish the feedramps, bed the receivers, pick the tightest pins I can find out of a pile, polish the bolt carrier rails, stone the trigger surfaces and come up with an overall better rifle than the weapon the military receives delivery of.
This does not change the fact - that even though I used "all the same parts," that I do not hold in my hands the same weapon, made to the same specs that the military uses.
It doesn't make it lesser - it may even make it "more," but it's not "the same." Speaking of which - which of my possibilities implies "lesser?" Either - they're the same parts, but ones that were a little oversized (we do buy oversized parts, don't we?) and hand fitted, or, they're the same as the standard Colt Rail Gun parts - do you mean to imply that these are "lesser?" I said they might be different.
Or, they may just be exactly the same parts - but hand-fitted. Which is not what the solicitation asked for.
The Colt rep made specific mention
of the hand fitting at the Custom Shop because he perceived that it would be a selling point - these pistols get more special attention and more special care - as a special edition commercial item should. He said, "the only difference
." Funny, but "difference" implies... well, difference, to me. Your interpretation may vary. When they advertise their AR15s, they don't make a specific point of "hand fitting," even with their Custom Shop guns like the LE6920SOCOM.
He assumed (probably correctly) that most would see this as a positive point. Which, on the one hand, it is. On the other hand - it's not what the Marine Corps asked for. You'd have to be pretty familiar with the original solicitation, the testing process from Phase 1 to selection and contract award, as well as the underlying reasons for the solicitation in the first place to even notice, happens to be, I am. But most people are not, and therefore wouldn't notice, or wouldn't care. But what the Marine Corps wanted was the 1911 version of the AR15. So any old unit armorer could fix one. "M45s" had to be issued two per user, because they had to be sent back to Quantico any time they needed maintenance. Kinda sucks when you're stuck in Afghanistan.
Moving maintenance out of PWS and away from the 2112s was the issue, not the number of pistols. Otherwise, they could have simply bought more from SACS like they'd been doing, and just requested a railed frame.
Most customers would not pay ~$2,000 for a turn-key production grade pistol, for the price, they expect some craftsmanship. So - either the Colt rep in the video is flat out lying, or it's not the same thing. My personal opinion is that the truth is somewhere in the middle - I would bet the commercial versions get a little bit of extra attention during assembly.
Again - I have no worries about the quality of the pistol.
If I can afford one, I will buy one.