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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:31:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 11:46:55 AM EST by 1911smith]
Same pistol as M45. Sold with custom case. Two, tested with gun magazines and Otis cleaning kit.

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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 11:48:04 AM EST
Ive been waiting for this to be anounced. looks like I will soon have my 3rd rail gun and a possible divorce soon.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 11:57:44 AM EST
Well, Wilson rep is on record as saying Colt appropriately named the pistol, like Wilson owned those three letters of the alphabet. Seriously Wilson Rep, you're in my e-mail inbox everyday but even Colt gets their day.

I'm hearing divorces might be inevitable. Look for a price tag of $2k plus and for those of us who know the level of detail in a pistol like this, $2k would be a good deal. This pistol is spec'd exactly the same as Marine M45 pistol.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 1:19:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 1:20:57 PM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Well, Wilson rep is on record as saying Colt appropriately named the pistol, like Wilson owned those three letters of the alphabet. Seriously Wilson Rep, you're in my e-mail inbox everyday but even Colt gets their day.

I'm hearing divorces might be inevitable. Look for a price tag of $2k plus and for those of us who know the level of detail in a pistol like this, $2k would be a good deal. This pistol is spec'd exactly the same as Marine M45 pistol.


The sticking point here is that it's not.

The price... well, it was to be expected.

But the Marine Corps solicitation specifically requested that it *not* be hand fitted - meaning either one of two things - the actual components used to build the Marine Corps pistols are different, most likely more expensive to produce parts built with tighter tolerances, and possibly different materials or methods, while the civilian versions will be built with the same "run of the mill" parts that need to be hand fitted.

Or, the civilian pistols are being built with rejected parts that are outside of the tolerances, and consequently need to be hand fitted.

Odd as it may seem to say that being hand fitted is a *negative* aspect of a 1911, the point is, they won't be exact copies of the military issued pistols, and in fact, the details of their manufacture will run counter to one of the main features of the pistol - namely that they do not require gunsmith support to maintain, but can be simply repaired at an armorer level.

If your goal is to get an exact copy of the Marine Corps pistol, you're still missing one of the critical points of the solicitation, and one of the main selling points to the Marines in this pistol.

The "spec" was for interchangeable parts - not hand fitting, whether hand fitting on the level of a full custom shop, or hand fitting on the level of a standard production Rail Gun.

Does this diminish my interest?

Sadly, no.

But it is a point that I feel is important to make, if only because I would have been very pleased to see a "jumping off point" for 1911s with drop in components, if only in the Colt Rail Gun line. Imagine an updated line of Colt Rail Guns with specs measured, tightened up, and standardized - no more oversized, hand fitted parts. They could start with the CQBP, migrate to their standard Rail Gun production, then extend it to their non-accessory rail 1911s, until Colt 1911s were just as interchangeable as Colt AR15s.

In the long run, manufacturing costs could have gone down, and maintenance costs for the user would have gone down. The custom market could and would still exist, but you would have a new breed of "MIL-SPEC," interchangeable component, combat ready production 1911s for the price of a Series 70 Repro.

It could have been a revolution. Made possible by the establishment of the first true "MIL-SPEC" for a 1911 series pistol since 1924, and the advances in modern manufacturing technology.

Then again, with a name like 1911smith it might have been counter to your best interests.



Either way, hopefully it won't be priced *too* far out of my reach.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 1:45:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 1:57:29 PM EST by 1911smith]
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.

With a name like 1911smith this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.

eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 1:49:36 PM EST
I will be curious to see which pistol will have a higher demand, the Colt or the SA Pro
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 1:59:14 PM EST
I see they are making a 1 inch group at a unspecified distance guarantee so I dont see them going with inferior parts with a promise like that. I dont care what anyone else thinks one of those pistols will be in my posession soon after they are released. Im not too worried about parts interchanging because Im sure it will hold up to my limited abuse and if it doesnt I have the warranty to back it up. Im ready for this to happen and it cant happen soon enough for me.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 2:00:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.

With a name like 1911smith this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.

eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.


The Colt rep in the video you posted to start this thread specifically said that this pistol is hand fitted by the Colt custom shop, and that is what makes it different from the USMC pistol.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 2:35:19 PM EST
I dont think the term custom shop means each gun is 100% hand fitted part by part. I read in an article that all rail guns came thru the custom shop but it didnt specify what job was performed by the custom shop or to what extent of custom work was done. as soon as we hear custom shop we think special combat pistols and I dont think they plan on turning out 50 to 100 rail guns per year the number has to be a lot more than that.
all we can do is speculate so perhaps brent will chime in and shed some light on this.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 2:47:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By bills2961:
I dont think the term custom shop means each gun is 100% hand fitted part by part. I read in an article that all rail guns came thru the custom shop but it didnt specify what job was performed by the custom shop or to what extent of custom work was done. as soon as we hear custom shop we think special combat pistols and I dont think they plan on turning out 50 to 100 rail guns per year the number has to be a lot more than that.
all we can do is speculate so perhaps brent will chime in and shed some light on this.


In the video the Colt guy specifically said that the civilian version will be hand fitted and hand built by the custom shop and that was made it different from the USMC version.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 2:51:52 PM EST
unlike some other here I hope that is true. either way I will own one but I would like to hear from Brent, he would know the facts.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 2:53:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 2:54:23 PM EST by 1911smith]
Originally Posted By bills2961:
I don't think the term custom shop means each gun is 100% hand fitted part by part. I read in an article that all rail guns came thru the custom shop but it didnt specify what job was performed by the custom shop or to what extent of custom work was done. as soon as we hear custom shop we think special combat pistols and I dont think they plan on turning out 50 to 100 rail guns per year the number has to be a lot more than that.
all we can do is speculate so perhaps brent will chime in and shed some light on this.


I can guarantee that not every part will be 100% hand fit or would require hand fitting. Today's CNC machining brought us drop in parts. Case in point, Rock Island Armory. These Colt guns, like you say are coming through the custom shop. Anymore, hand fit gets confused with hand assembled. Guns built of oversized parts where each piece is hand fit are worth $4 to $5k when done. Hardly anyone "hand fits" a 1911 anymore except for very high end custom shops. A $2k Brown or Wilson has very few hand fit parts. These pistols are assembled of parts that fit "well together."

btw, A truly hand fit pistol will be absent any and all machine marks.



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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 2:57:51 PM EST
thats exactly what I was trying to say and thats where everyone gets confused when they hear custom shop.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2012 8:43:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/14/2012 10:38:13 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.

With a name like 1911smith this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.

eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.


1911smith. mMany have. Most have not survived.

Have you read the Phase 1 test findings for the CQBP solicitation?

Just for clarity: I WANT ONE, TOO.

Yeah, I watched the video and listened about as close as just about anyone else might. I have had a good bit of interest in this solicitation since it appeared on my radar in late-2010 on NECO and FBO.

Some excerpts from the Initial Technical Evaluation Report:

5. A summary of the evaluation of the Offerors follows:

a. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference (d), paragraphs 3.5.3 and 4.6.3, one bid sample failed to fully interchange. The failing sample demonstrated an inability to function with the interchanged grip safety or any other grip safeties installed from the spare parts block.


b. Colt Manufacturing LLC: Unacceptable.

...

Stengths:

...

e. Parts Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples met the requirement for parts interchangeability...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.


c. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference... three bid samples failed to fully interchange. Per enclosure (6), one sample would not lock closed, and two others displayed excessive lock up.


Important points:

The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples

(emphasis added)

One of the offerors failed to meet the interchangeability criteria by one part of one pistol.

And:

...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.


Not only did all parts have to interchange - they had to continue to meet dispersion (accuracy) testing requirements to meet the solicitation criteria.

You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.

Have ya got something better than a YouTube video to put up against official Marine Corps documents about the CQBP selection process?

To me - no combination of words involving "hand fitted," will also meet the solicitation and testing criteria. Every part of every pistol had to completely interchange with every part of every other pistol - no mixing and matching, no selecting mated pairs - complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples.

As you pointed out - and as I was aware - mixing and matching of parts until you find an acceptable match is still "hand fitting." This is why I included the full range of "hand fitting" covering the whole continuum from "standard production" to "full house custom." Pull ten standard 1070RGs at random from a shelf, and let's perform the "MIL-SPEC" test and see if they interchange completely. I'm voting "no."

Far from saying that Colt will release a lesser pistol, there's a good chance that the result of hand fitting will be a better pistol on a one to one basis than a production "M45A1."

But if any amount of hand fitting, whether mixing and matching parts - or stoning and polishing them is involved - you are not getting what the solicitation requested - complete interchangeability. Not mostly interchangeable. Fully interchangeable. What does this amount to for the average civilian shooter who is not buying 4,000 pistols that they expect to maintain in forward deployed combat locations far from any qualified gunsmiths to conduct repairs? Probably not a lick.

Conceivably I can take a Colt factory M4A1, RO921HB - I can polish the feedramps, bed the receivers, pick the tightest pins I can find out of a pile, polish the bolt carrier rails, stone the trigger surfaces and come up with an overall better rifle than the weapon the military receives delivery of.

This does not change the fact - that even though I used "all the same parts," that I do not hold in my hands the same weapon, made to the same specs that the military uses.

It doesn't make it lesser - it may even make it "more," but it's not "the same." Speaking of which - which of my possibilities implies "lesser?" Either - they're the same parts, but ones that were a little oversized (we do buy oversized parts, don't we?) and hand fitted, or, they're the same as the standard Colt Rail Gun parts - do you mean to imply that these are "lesser?" I said they might be different.

Or, they may just be exactly the same parts - but hand-fitted. Which is not what the solicitation asked for.

The Colt rep made specific mention of the hand fitting at the Custom Shop because he perceived that it would be a selling point - these pistols get more special attention and more special care - as a special edition commercial item should. He said, "the only difference." Funny, but "difference" implies... well, difference, to me. Your interpretation may vary. When they advertise their AR15s, they don't make a specific point of "hand fitting," even with their Custom Shop guns like the LE6920SOCOM.

He assumed (probably correctly) that most would see this as a positive point. Which, on the one hand, it is. On the other hand - it's not what the Marine Corps asked for. You'd have to be pretty familiar with the original solicitation, the testing process from Phase 1 to selection and contract award, as well as the underlying reasons for the solicitation in the first place to even notice, happens to be, I am. But most people are not, and therefore wouldn't notice, or wouldn't care. But what the Marine Corps wanted was the 1911 version of the AR15. So any old unit armorer could fix one. "M45s" had to be issued two per user, because they had to be sent back to Quantico any time they needed maintenance. Kinda sucks when you're stuck in Afghanistan.

Moving maintenance out of PWS and away from the 2112s was the issue, not the number of pistols. Otherwise, they could have simply bought more from SACS like they'd been doing, and just requested a railed frame.

Most customers would not pay ~$2,000 for a turn-key production grade pistol, for the price, they expect some craftsmanship. So - either the Colt rep in the video is flat out lying, or it's not the same thing. My personal opinion is that the truth is somewhere in the middle - I would bet the commercial versions get a little bit of extra attention during assembly.

Again - I have no worries about the quality of the pistol.

If I can afford one, I will buy one.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 9:17:02 AM EST
Why no front strap checkering at that price point?
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 9:40:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By AWDeity:
Why no front strap checkering at that price point?


Because its overrated IMO. none of my 1911s have it, and I never have a problem with grip, even very sweaty or wet. Im sure we will see these pistols with pachmayr wrap-arounds once the marines get ahold of them anyway because thats what they are used to. Plus if its not on the marine pistol, why would they put it on this one since it is supposed to be 99% the same weapon?
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 10:19:59 AM EST
It's disappointing they're not offering the exact M45 to the public. I wonder why they're not, honestly; the gun will move regardless of quality thanks to the fact that it's the "MARSOC gun," so it's not like they need to make it a product of the custom shop.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 10:35:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By AWDeity:
Why no front strap checkering at that price point?


With the exception of a few Springfield Professionals, the MEU(SOC) .45, ICQB, and "M45" have not had front strap checkering.

It is not something that MARSOC as an organization wants, and was one of the complaints about the Pro.

As I mentioned in the MEU(SOC) thread, there's a strong suggestion that the replacement of the grips with Pachmayrs is already being "planned," as the tests referenced the fact that "the supplied rubber grips" failed the chemical emersion test in Phase III, but that this was considered unrealistic, as the grips were immersed in solvents for twenty-four hours. It noted that the G10 grips passed solvent testing without problems.

Notice that neither the Springfield MC Operator, nor the Kimber Warrior series, both also derived from MEU(SOC) .45 requirements possess front strap checkering.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 12:07:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Augee:

You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.

~Augee


No, correcting outright misinformation isn't fun and being blunt (erudition) is about the only way my unpolished personality knows how to set the record straight when someone has legend and lore spewing like you've got it going. Yea, I'm privy to a lot of insider information. Most I cannot share about certain companies or how certain procedures are done inside Perkins Custom Shop. But, and here it is. Given the time I spend in shop doesn't lend well towards your uncreditable claims.

Two letters in the alphabet are beating down your claims. C N C.

Ever heard of a little kit called C&S ignition set ?









Now, I know this will be a bit of a challenge for you. You'll want to spin round and round, never answering the question. It's a YES or NO question.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 12:20:15 PM EST
Just so happened to remember something. I have two XSE model Colts in house. Both are one serial number apart.

Guess what ?

The parts interchange and I'm sure there's parts of one gun in the other gun.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 12:25:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.

With a name like 1911smith this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.

eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.


No shit, man. It's ridiculous! Who in the hell would NOT want the pistol to be made by the Custom Shop especially since that is the only way you're ever going to own an M45.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 12:43:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.

With a name like 1911smith this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.

eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.


1911smith. mMany have. Most have not survived.

Have you read the Phase 1 test findings for the CQBP solicitation?

Just for clarity: I WANT ONE, TOO.

Yeah, I watched the video and listened about as close as just about anyone else might. I have had a good bit of interest in this solicitation since it appeared on my radar in late-2010 on NECO and FBO.

Some excerpts from the Initial Technical Evaluation Report:

5. A summary of the evaluation of the Offerors follows:

a. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference (d), paragraphs 3.5.3 and 4.6.3, one bid sample failed to fully interchange. The failing sample demonstrated an inability to function with the interchanged grip safety or any other grip safeties installed from the spare parts block.


b. Colt Manufacturing LLC: Unacceptable.

...

Stengths:

...

e. Parts Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples met the requirement for parts interchangeability...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.


c. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference... three bid samples failed to fully interchange. Per enclosure (6), one sample would not lock closed, and two others displayed excessive lock up.


Important points:

The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples

(emphasis added)

One of the offerors failed to meet the interchangeability criteria by one part of one pistol.

And:

...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.


Not only did all parts have to interchange - they had to continue to meet dispersion (accuracy) testing requirements to meet the solicitation criteria.

You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.

Have ya got something better than a YouTube video to put up against official Marine Corps documents about the CQBP selection process?

To me - no combination of words involving "hand fitted," will also meet the solicitation and testing criteria. Every part of every pistol had to completely interchange with every part of every other pistol - no mixing and matching, no selecting mated pairs - complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples.

As you pointed out - and as I was aware - mixing and matching of parts until you find an acceptable match is still "hand fitting." This is why I included the full range of "hand fitting" covering the whole continuum from "standard production" to "full house custom." Pull ten standard 1070RGs at random from a shelf, and let's perform the "MIL-SPEC" test and see if they interchange completely. I'm voting "no."

Far from saying that Colt will release a lesser pistol, there's a good chance that the result of hand fitting will be a better pistol on a one to one basis than a production "M45A1."

But if any amount of hand fitting, whether mixing and matching parts - or stoning and polishing them is involved - you are not getting what the solicitation requested - complete interchangeability. Not mostly interchangeable. Fully interchangeable. What does this amount to for the average civilian shooter who is not buying 4,000 pistols that they expect to maintain in forward deployed combat locations far from any qualified gunsmiths to conduct repairs? Probably not a lick.

Conceivably I can take a Colt factory M4A1, RO921HB - I can polish the feedramps, bed the receivers, pick the tightest pins I can find out of a pile, polish the bolt carrier rails, stone the trigger surfaces and come up with an overall better rifle than the weapon the military receives delivery of.

This does not change the fact - that even though I used "all the same parts," that I do not hold in my hands the same weapon, made to the same specs that the military uses.

It doesn't make it lesser - it may even make it "more," but it's not "the same." Speaking of which - which of my possibilities implies "lesser?" Either - they're the same parts, but ones that were a little oversized (we do buy oversized parts, don't we?) and hand fitted, or, they're the same as the standard Colt Rail Gun parts - do you mean to imply that these are "lesser?" I said they might be different.

Or, they may just be exactly the same parts - but hand-fitted. Which is not what the solicitation asked for.

The Colt rep made specific mention of the hand fitting at the Custom Shop because he perceived that it would be a selling point - these pistols get more special attention and more special care - as a special edition commercial item should. He said, "the only difference." Funny, but "difference" implies... well, difference, to me. Your interpretation may vary. When they advertise their AR15s, they don't make a specific point of "hand fitting," even with their Custom Shop guns like the LE6920SOCOM.

He assumed (probably correctly) that most would see this as a positive point. Which, on the one hand, it is. On the other hand - it's not what the Marine Corps asked for. You'd have to be pretty familiar with the original solicitation, the testing process from Phase 1 to selection and contract award, as well as the underlying reasons for the solicitation in the first place to even notice, happens to be, I am. But most people are not, and therefore wouldn't notice, or wouldn't care. But what the Marine Corps wanted was the 1911 version of the AR15. So any old unit armorer could fix one. "M45s" had to be issued two per user, because they had to be sent back to Quantico any time they needed maintenance. Kinda sucks when you're stuck in Afghanistan.

Moving maintenance out of PWS and away from the 2112s was the issue, not the number of pistols. Otherwise, they could have simply bought more from SACS like they'd been doing, and just requested a railed frame.

Most customers would not pay ~$2,000 for a turn-key production grade pistol, for the price, they expect some craftsmanship. So - either the Colt rep in the video is flat out lying, or it's not the same thing. My personal opinion is that the truth is somewhere in the middle - I would bet the commercial versions get a little bit of extra attention during assembly.

Again - I have no worries about the quality of the pistol.

If I can afford one, I will buy one.

~Augee


Beyond all that the M45A1s will come with a spring system to mitigate shock to preclude the need for the current M45 shock buffer requirements.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 2:27:54 PM EST
I like it and I want one. I'd prefer front strap checkering but it ain't the m4pointman model it's the Marine model and their spec. Saving for a Professional Operator and now this. I gotta start a fund and come up with a really good lie for the wife.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 5:35:39 PM EST
So will it include a castastrophic failure like the M45 or are they saving that for the actual Marine version too?

I cant tell from this thread.


Seriously, the new line of Colts are probably the nicest and best theyve ever built, but I have to doubt they are capable of putting out one worth 2k yet.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 5:40:19 PM EST
the special combat line is as well built as the springfield pro and 1800 compaired to 2400 for the pro is a bargain in my book. I will wait to pass judgement after I get one.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 6:27:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/14/2012 6:35:49 PM EST by jtb0311]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By Augee:

You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.

~Augee


No, correcting outright misinformation isn't fun and being blunt (erudition) is about the only way my unpolished personality knows how to set the record straight when someone has legend and lore spewing like you've got it going. Yea, I'm privy to a lot of insider information. Most I cannot share about certain companies or how certain procedures are done inside Perkins Custom Shop. But, and here it is. Given the time I spend in shop doesn't lend well towards your uncreditable claims.


This is like talking to the kid in the FAR Side cartoon who is constantly pushing on the door that said "Pull".

You said
This pistol is spec'd exactly the same as Marine M45 pistol.


The Colt representative in the video you posted very clearly said that this new handgun was hand fitted and hand built, and that was what made it different from the USMC pistol.

Which statement is wrong?

The answer only needs to be "His" or "Mine".
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 7:07:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Just so happened to remember something. I have two XSE model Colts in house. Both are one serial number apart.

Guess what ?

The parts interchange and I'm sure there's parts of one gun in the other gun.


I've swapped parts between a Colt, Kimber, and Springfield built over a span of at least a decade, and they all fit too. I didn't shoot them, but function check and cycling with dummy rounds worked well enough. I was just curious one day.

I'd be more concerned if two pistols from a single manufacturer that were only one number apart didn't match.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 9:10:01 PM EST
Tell you what everyone needs to do who wants a CQB or M45a1 (whatever). Call Colt and get the answer from the source. I heard the rep crystal clear. He said the pistols would be the same. Every Colt pistol is hand assembled, no exceptions. If Colt makes further refinements by honing a sear or polishing trigger bow and trigger track it just makes the pistol all that much better. This is silly debating which pea is an authentic pea. Both are peas and both green. Same deal with the CQB vs M45a1. One gets civilian designation and one gets military designation. Both will be spec for spec the same gun, that's what the man said. What he did GI is leave hand fit open for interpretation for two of you at least. Again, call Colt and ask for yourselves.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 9:39:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Tell you what everyone needs to do who wants a CQB or M45a1 (whatever). Call Colt and get the answer from the source. I heard the rep crystal clear. He said the pistols would be the same. Every Colt pistol is hand assembled, no exceptions. If Colt makes further refinements by honing a sear or polishing trigger bow and trigger track it just makes the pistol all that much better. This is silly debating which pea is an authentic pea. Both are peas and both green. Same deal with the CQB vs M45a1. One gets civilian designation and one gets military designation. Both will be spec for spec the same gun, that's what the man said. What he did GI is leave hand fit open for interpretation for two of you at least. Again, call Colt and ask for yourselves.

It's a bit strange that, if they're going to be the same, the rep in the vid discussed the difference between them at around fifty seconds in.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 10:02:22 PM EST
You know, human perception is a funny thing. I'd suggest you might call Colt.
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Link Posted: 11/14/2012 10:07:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Just so happened to remember something. I have two XSE model Colts in house. Both are one serial number apart.

Guess what ?

The parts interchange and I'm sure there's parts of one gun in the other gun.


I've swapped parts between a Colt, Kimber, and Springfield built over a span of at least a decade, and they all fit too. I didn't shoot them, but function check and cycling with dummy rounds worked well enough. I was just curious one day.

I'd be more concerned if two pistols from a single manufacturer that were only one number apart didn't match.


Thank you, you made my point of part interchangabilty. Yea, I'd be pretty damn upset if I had a hundred Colts one serial number off the other if all parts didn't interchange. M45a1 part interchangability isn't a breakthrough in modern weapon production.
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 2:38:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/15/2012 5:09:49 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By Augee:

You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.

~Augee


No, correcting outright misinformation isn't fun and being blunt (erudition) is about the only way my unpolished personality knows how to set the record straight when someone has legend and lore spewing like you've got it going. Yea, I'm privy to a lot of insider information. Most I cannot share about certain companies or how certain procedures are done inside Perkins Custom Shop. But, and here it is. Given the time I spend in shop doesn't lend well towards your uncreditable claims.

Two letters in the alphabet are beating down your claims. C N C.

Ever heard of a little kit called C&S ignition set ?

Now, I know this will be a bit of a challenge for you. You'll want to spin round and round, never answering the question. It's a YES or NO question.


What spinning?

YES.

I've heard of both CNC and the C&S ignition kit, and used the latter in the past.

Legend and lore spewing?

I posted excerpts from the Marine Corps ITER.

You posted a YouTube video and:

I'm privy to a lot of insider information. Most I cannot share about certain companies or how certain procedures are done inside Perkins Custom Shop.


I'm content to leave it to the membership to decide which is "legend and lore."

Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Just so happened to remember something. I have two XSE model Colts in house. Both are one serial number apart.

Guess what ?

The parts interchange and I'm sure there's parts of one gun in the other gun.


And lo, problem solved. Thanks for clarifying that.

Nine out of ten of one offeror's pistols completely interchanged, and seven of ten of the other's. That's a less than 70% failure rate when you consider the number of parts that have to be interchanged as well. Statistically, it would be surprising if your two pistols *didn't* interchange. One part of one pistol failing to interchange constituted a failure to meet requirements.

Both are well regarded manufacturers of both 1911s and other "modern" firearms.

I assure you that they too know about CNC.

You do good work, I will certainly credit you with that. And you have a lot of knowledge to share, which I can respect. I would be more than happy to have you working on one of my pistols, because I am certain that you are more than competent at it. Reloading too, something I know little nothing about.

However, you're not always right - and you may want to use one of those polishing stones on that blunt personality you mentioned. I get the distinct impression, not just with this, but in other discussions I've seen you take part in, that you'd much rather argue yourself into a corner and throw out increasingly more obscure references that may or may not be relevant, than to simply be able to say "oh, I didn't know that." Whether or not this is the case right now I will abstain from commenting on, this is just my general "impression" from being a participating member of this board.

I will, however, reaffirm my stance on the two big topics that seemingly keep getting crossed:

1. Is this the exact same pistol as the Marine Corps contract pistol?

In my opinion, no. And to me, it's not important - it is "close enough" and is most likely going to be an excellent pistol. I brought up the differences, because regardless of your opinion or mine, there are some people who value authenticity over performance, and will actively seek and expend large sums of money to intentionally degrade performance by seeking out authentic parts, components, and configurations. They are entitled to that. And if they're preparing to spend the money on a commercial CQBP, they should at least be aware of what it is and it is not.

2. Does this in any way make it "worse," "lesser," or "bad?"

Again, in my opinion, no. In fact, it may very well make it a better pistol - which most people will want. Which I want. I do not fit into the above "authentic collector" category - and those things that I like to "clone," I'm largely content with small differences for varying reasons of performance, price, and expediency. I am not complaining that Colt wants to add a little TLC to commercial sales items - they may as well for what they're going to sell them for. This little fact does not influence my personal desire to own one - however, it may for some, if they're the types of people who want authenticity at the expense of all other things.

::shrug:: Anyways, I think I've made any points I'd consider worth making already, so I guess I'll leave your "big announcement" alone. Any additional information I find as time goes along will be posted in my MEU(SOC) .45, ICQB, M45 CQBP thread.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 4:16:24 AM EST
I'm all over one of these! Glad to see Colt make these available...
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 4:47:14 AM EST
Augee, time is all this offering from Colt needs. Time will eventually put both pistols into the same hands. I'm pretty high on Colt and every year they keep getting better. I mention C&S for reason. Doesn't matter what pistol the parts drop right in. Same deal with Colt parts exception being compared C&S parts are finely tuned.

The differences, if there is a difference at all will be in tuning. This is opinion, no facts. There's no corner to box myself in and not one for you either unless you get to assuming what Colt will or will not do and that's why you should call Colt.
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 6:27:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee, time is all this offering from Colt needs. Time will eventually put both pistols into the same hands. I'm pretty high on Colt and every year they keep getting better. I mention C&S for reason. Doesn't matter what pistol the parts drop right in. Same deal with Colt parts exception being compared C&S parts are finely tuned.

The differences, if there is a difference at all will be in tuning. This is opinion, no facts. There's no corner to box myself in and not one for you either unless you get to assuming what Colt will or will not do and that's why you should call Colt.


I'm a pretty big fan of Colt myself, so no need to worry on that account.

I'm quite excited about this pistol, as there were many who didn't think that any version would ever be released.

Who knows - this may be the first gun I get that stays in factory configuration... but somehow I doubt that.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 7:53:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Every Colt pistol is hand assembled, no exceptions.


Oh come on. Every firearm that has ever existed is hand assembled.

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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 7:59:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Every Colt pistol is hand assembled, no exceptions.


Oh come on. Every firearm that has ever existed is hand assembled.



Except for Glocks, which are made on one of these:

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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 8:25:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/15/2012 8:25:52 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By JLH3:
Except for Glocks, which are made on one of these:

http://www.kelvin.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/841970.jpg






~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 9:47:53 AM EST
I wish they would offer it in a black ceracote option.
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 11:20:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By bills2961:
the special combat line is as well built as the springfield pro and 1800 compaired to 2400 for the pro is a bargain in my book. I will wait to pass judgement after I get one.


That may well be true, just not with any of the ones I've seen.
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 4:34:03 PM EST
Hand fitted, snapped together...it doesn't matter. I can't have one on our budget, unless Santa is coming to visit
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 4:37:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By nturavrgcop:
Hand fitted, snapped together...it doesn't matter. I can't have one on our budget, unless Santa is coming to visit

Coal isn't even in the budget, this year....
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Link Posted: 11/15/2012 4:57:34 PM EST
Ahh, one of THOSE threads.

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Link Posted: 11/16/2012 4:22:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Augee. anyone ever told you you're full of it. Your post is perhaps the most ridiculous that's come along within the last few minutes. The difference if, YOU LISTEN is simple. Same parts, just being built by the custom shop is all. *BIG SIGH* I don't believe there will be any convincing you of the facts of this but it's black and white, no grey. I think if we did some exploring on our own at the Colt plant we might find a core group of people assembling the "M45" for quality assurance purposes and more so for reasons of accountability. (Think Colt Defense) Anything outside of normal or government contract production has always fell on Colt's Custom Shop. If you're going to pretend the Custom Shop will build a lesser pistol from lesser parts than the "M45" I'd suggest you come up for air.

With a name like 1911smith this event doesn't mean but one thing. I WANT ONE.

eta, One other thing, you might update yourself on Colt production. There's almost no hand fitting of Colt production guns other than sanding out the flats on slides and some sear work, maybe... There's a Youtube video that covers Colt's manufacturing process. It's literally a mix-match of finding a slide to fit reciever, then installing parts in assembly line fashion. Just like the Marine pistol.


1911smith. mMany have. Most have not survived.

Have you read the Phase 1 test findings for the CQBP solicitation?

Just for clarity: I WANT ONE, TOO.

Yeah, I watched the video and listened about as close as just about anyone else might. I have had a good bit of interest in this solicitation since it appeared on my radar in late-2010 on NECO and FBO.

Some excerpts from the Initial Technical Evaluation Report:

5. A summary of the evaluation of the Offerors follows:

a. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference (d), paragraphs 3.5.3 and 4.6.3, one bid sample failed to fully interchange. The failing sample demonstrated an inability to function with the interchanged grip safety or any other grip safeties installed from the spare parts block.


b. Colt Manufacturing LLC: Unacceptable.

...

Stengths:

...

e. Parts Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples met the requirement for parts interchangeability...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.


c. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference... three bid samples failed to fully interchange. Per enclosure (6), one sample would not lock closed, and two others displayed excessive lock up.


Important points:

The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples

(emphasis added)

One of the offerors failed to meet the interchangeability criteria by one part of one pistol.

And:

...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.


Not only did all parts have to interchange - they had to continue to meet dispersion (accuracy) testing requirements to meet the solicitation criteria.

You seem to enjoy impressing people with your erudition and your access to and knowledge of references.

Have ya got something better than a YouTube video to put up against official Marine Corps documents about the CQBP selection process?

To me - no combination of words involving "hand fitted," will also meet the solicitation and testing criteria. Every part of every pistol had to completely interchange with every part of every other pistol - no mixing and matching, no selecting mated pairs - complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples.

As you pointed out - and as I was aware - mixing and matching of parts until you find an acceptable match is still "hand fitting." This is why I included the full range of "hand fitting" covering the whole continuum from "standard production" to "full house custom." Pull ten standard 1070RGs at random from a shelf, and let's perform the "MIL-SPEC" test and see if they interchange completely. I'm voting "no."

Far from saying that Colt will release a lesser pistol, there's a good chance that the result of hand fitting will be a better pistol on a one to one basis than a production "M45A1."

But if any amount of hand fitting, whether mixing and matching parts - or stoning and polishing them is involved - you are not getting what the solicitation requested - complete interchangeability. Not mostly interchangeable. Fully interchangeable. What does this amount to for the average civilian shooter who is not buying 4,000 pistols that they expect to maintain in forward deployed combat locations far from any qualified gunsmiths to conduct repairs? Probably not a lick.

Conceivably I can take a Colt factory M4A1, RO921HB - I can polish the feedramps, bed the receivers, pick the tightest pins I can find out of a pile, polish the bolt carrier rails, stone the trigger surfaces and come up with an overall better rifle than the weapon the military receives delivery of.

This does not change the fact - that even though I used "all the same parts," that I do not hold in my hands the same weapon, made to the same specs that the military uses.

It doesn't make it lesser - it may even make it "more," but it's not "the same." Speaking of which - which of my possibilities implies "lesser?" Either - they're the same parts, but ones that were a little oversized (we do buy oversized parts, don't we?) and hand fitted, or, they're the same as the standard Colt Rail Gun parts - do you mean to imply that these are "lesser?" I said they might be different.

Or, they may just be exactly the same parts - but hand-fitted. Which is not what the solicitation asked for.

The Colt rep made specific mention of the hand fitting at the Custom Shop because he perceived that it would be a selling point - these pistols get more special attention and more special care - as a special edition commercial item should. He said, "the only difference." Funny, but "difference" implies... well, difference, to me. Your interpretation may vary. When they advertise their AR15s, they don't make a specific point of "hand fitting," even with their Custom Shop guns like the LE6920SOCOM.

He assumed (probably correctly) that most would see this as a positive point. Which, on the one hand, it is. On the other hand - it's not what the Marine Corps asked for. You'd have to be pretty familiar with the original solicitation, the testing process from Phase 1 to selection and contract award, as well as the underlying reasons for the solicitation in the first place to even notice, happens to be, I am. But most people are not, and therefore wouldn't notice, or wouldn't care. But what the Marine Corps wanted was the 1911 version of the AR15. So any old unit armorer could fix one. "M45s" had to be issued two per user, because they had to be sent back to Quantico any time they needed maintenance. Kinda sucks when you're stuck in Afghanistan.

Moving maintenance out of PWS and away from the 2112s was the issue, not the number of pistols. Otherwise, they could have simply bought more from SACS like they'd been doing, and just requested a railed frame.

Most customers would not pay ~$2,000 for a turn-key production grade pistol, for the price, they expect some craftsmanship. So - either the Colt rep in the video is flat out lying, or it's not the same thing. My personal opinion is that the truth is somewhere in the middle - I would bet the commercial versions get a little bit of extra attention during assembly.

Again - I have no worries about the quality of the pistol.

If I can afford one, I will buy one.

~Augee
soo..Augee is familiar with the acquisition process. What you say makes sense. And even though I am a Colt and a 1911 fan, I still do not see why a military unit would still want the 1911. I prefer my HK USP Tactical in 45 ACP for a real combat situation.


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Link Posted: 11/16/2012 4:35:39 AM EST
soo..Augee is familiar with the acquisition process. What you say makes sense. And even though I am a Colt and a 1911 fan, I still do not see why a military unit would still want the 1911. I prefer my HK USP Tactical in 45 ACP for a real combat situation.




USP = useless service pistol.

1911's do not snap in half because you lay down on it. 1911's are not prone to having the firing pin fall apart.

Maybe HK's customer service is not really better for the military than us, including the purchase of small parts?

And finally, who the f––- puts an O-ring on a "tactical" pistol? I will take a well fit steel bushing over a frackin o-ring on my barrel any day.

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Link Posted: 11/16/2012 6:22:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2012 6:25:49 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By tfod:
soo..Augee is familiar with the acquisition process. What you say makes sense. And even though I am a Colt and a 1911 fan, I still do not see why a military unit would still want the 1911. I prefer my HK USP Tactical in 45 ACP for a real combat situation.




USP = useless service pistol.

1911's do not snap in half because you lay down on it. 1911's are not prone to having the firing pin fall apart.

Maybe HK's customer service is not really better for the military than us, including the purchase of small parts?

And finally, who the f––- puts an O-ring on a "tactical" pistol? I will take a well fit steel bushing over a frackin o-ring on my barrel any day.



Whoa, no worries guys, 2012 is the Golden Age of fanboys - you almost can't go wrong!

Depending on what you're a fanboy of, there's a U.S. Special Operations unit issuing it an using it!

1911s - Marine Special Operations
Glocks - Selected USASOC units
Sigs - NSW
H&Ks - NSW

That's the big four, isn't it? All three major service calibers, too!

Pick you favorite and rule the interwebz with your pithy "well _____ SOF unit wouldn't be using _______ if it wasn't the bestest!"

I guess the M&P and XD fanboys will have to wait a while for their day in the sun.

[None of this post should be construed as a targeted dig against any one poster, but merely a commentary on internet gun forums in general]

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/16/2012 1:15:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Every Colt pistol is hand assembled, no exceptions.


Oh come on. Every firearm that has ever existed is hand assembled.



Yea and not every pistol that's hand assembled requires hand fitting although hand assembling is often billed as hand fitted.

What you perceive and what really happens are two different things here. Real hand fitting, my definition is void of any and all machine marks. How many 2k pistols have you come across new are free of machine marks ?

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Link Posted: 11/17/2012 9:18:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/17/2012 9:18:12 AM EST by SGB]
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