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Dieselman
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Posted: 12/6/2011 7:58:45 PM

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Hi. I would like to know more about Para Ordnance 1911s, more specifically their double stack 1911s . Would Para-Ordnance be considered in the same quality tier as Springfield Armory? Are they considered reliable out of the box without tweaking? Do they have any history of breaking parts? What about compatibility with other traditional single stack 1911 parts?

I have never been around Para pistols, nor do I know anyone that owns one. I am intrigued by the P14 45 model for its large capacity with a grip that Para claims is no wider than a single stack gun. Would you recommend one for concealed carry?

Thanks
FLATFOOT762
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Posted: 12/6/2011 9:32:17 PM

Originally Posted By Dieselman:
Hi. I would like to know more about Para Ordnance 1911s, more specifically their double stack 1911s . Would Para-Ordnance be considered in the same quality tier as Springfield Armory? Depends upon who you ask. I have had a few, and have been very happy with them. Are they considered reliable out of the box without tweaking? The ones that I had were (mostly LDA's). Do they have any history of breaking parts? Not that I'm aware of. What about compatibility with other traditional single stack 1911 parts? The trigger, and the mag release are not compatable.

I have never been around Para pistols, nor do I know anyone that owns one. I am intrigued by the P14 45 model for its large capacity with a grip that Para claims is no wider than a single stack gun. Would you recommend one for concealed carry? They are a bit on the heavy/large side for concealed carry, IMO. YMMV.
Thanks


"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms
is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in
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Dieselman
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Posted: 12/7/2011 12:24:22 PM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2011 12:24:48 PM by Dieselman]
Thanks for the reply. I noticed on the Para website that they have a full size 1911 in 9mm called the 18-9. Wow, that would be sweet!! A 18+1 capacity in the frame dimensions of a 1911. This intrigues me even more than the 14-45. I have been sort of thinking about a Glock 17 to fill my niche for a full size 9mm, but this gun would best it by two and maybe even have a thinner profile? That would be great. I carry a full size Springfield Armory as my daily CCW gun now. So other than a weight difference, the size would be of no consequence.
SamW
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Posted: 12/14/2011 11:09:47 AM
[Last Edit: 12/14/2011 11:11:51 AM by SamW]
Bought a 16-40 and am finally getting it to function mostly correctly. At first it would hold open with 1 rd. left in the mag. Some sanding on the followers solved that. Now w/ extended base pads it just tries to slam the round into the super-steep feed ramp, but I knew this might be an issue w/ factory ammo. Reloading to longer OAL will take care of that. Once you get 3/4 full, it feeds fine mostly.

Also replaced the HEAVY trigger in their 'match' gun with C&S pieces. Absolutely love it now.
The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 12/14/2011 11:42:24 AM
haven't seen one of their new guns in several years. the old ones were so bad most shops here wouldn't carry them anymore.
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
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important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
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Posted: 12/14/2011 1:11:26 PM
[Last Edit: 12/14/2011 1:13:24 PM by chibajoe]
Originally Posted By Dieselman:
Hi. I would like to know more about Para Ordnance 1911s, more specifically their double stack 1911s . Would Para-Ordnance be considered in the same quality tier as Springfield Armory? Are they considered reliable out of the box without tweaking? Do they have any history of breaking parts? What about compatibility with other traditional single stack 1911 parts?

I have never been around Para pistols, nor do I know anyone that owns one. I am intrigued by the P14 45 model for its large capacity with a grip that Para claims is no wider than a single stack gun. Would you recommend one for concealed carry?

Thanks


An alloy framed P12 (or maybe a P13) is your best bet for carry; the P14 is a full sized 1911 frame that, Para marketing speak aside, is significantly wider than a single stack 1911. The steel framed pistols, IMHO, are simply too heavy for CC, especially when loaded with good defensive ammo (14 - 15 rounds of 230gr JHP is heavy compared to 9mm).

As far as quality is concerned, I'm a firm believer that the quality of a 1911 is less important than the quality of the customer service of the company that you bough the pistol from. In this regards, Para Ordnance ranks at the very bottom of the heap, below even Taurus. They were terrible when they were up in Canada, and are only marginally better now that they have moved to Florida. For what it's worth, the pistols themselves seem to be fairly decent (none of mine have been too terribly problematic, and a couple have even been trouble free).

Although they claim to have a lifetime warranty, this is only true
1) if you are the original purchaser of the gun and register it with them (fair enough, since other manufactures nominally have the same policy)
2) if you own one of the newer guns made since they moved

You are absolutely SOL if you bought the gun second hand or have one of the older pistols. This wouldn't be that big of a deal, except that the pistol best suited for carry is (IMHO) the alloy framed P12, which is no longer in their lineup. Also, from personal observation, the alloy P12s seem to have a problem with cracked frames, as 2 out of 4 that I've bought had this issue. Fortunately, I was able to return them for a full refund (after being told by Para that it would cost $300+shipping for them to replace the frame).

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of their double stack frame design and prefer it to STIs, but when I buy a Para I think of it as just a frame kit. I know there is no factory support, so I basically throw away all the MIM parts and replace them with quality aftermarket parts and go from there. I doubt I would ever buy one of their new guns.

Oh yeah, and I always check for cracks.


Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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That way, when you do judge them, you will be a mile away, and they will have no shoes.
keninnavarre
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Posted: 12/21/2011 9:28:44 AM
[Last Edit: 12/21/2011 9:29:14 AM by keninnavarre]
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
Originally Posted By Dieselman:
Hi. I would like to know more about Para Ordnance 1911s, more specifically their double stack 1911s . Would Para-Ordnance be considered in the same quality tier as Springfield Armory? Are they considered reliable out of the box without tweaking? Do they have any history of breaking parts? What about compatibility with other traditional single stack 1911 parts?

I have never been around Para pistols, nor do I know anyone that owns one. I am intrigued by the P14 45 model for its large capacity with a grip that Para claims is no wider than a single stack gun. Would you recommend one for concealed carry?

Thanks


An alloy framed P12 (or maybe a P13) is your best bet for carry; the P14 is a full sized 1911 frame that, Para marketing speak aside, is significantly wider than a single stack 1911. The steel framed pistols, IMHO, are simply too heavy for CC, especially when loaded with good defensive ammo (14 - 15 rounds of 230gr JHP is heavy compared to 9mm).

As far as quality is concerned, I'm a firm believer that the quality of a 1911 is less important than the quality of the customer service of the company that you bough the pistol from. In this regards, Para Ordnance ranks at the very bottom of the heap, below even Taurus. They were terrible when they were up in Canada, and are only marginally better now that they have moved to Florida. For what it's worth, the pistols themselves seem to be fairly decent (none of mine have been too terribly problematic, and a couple have even been trouble free).

Although they claim to have a lifetime warranty, this is only true
1) if you are the original purchaser of the gun and register it with them (fair enough, since other manufactures nominally have the same policy)
2) if you own one of the newer guns made since they moved

You are absolutely SOL if you bought the gun second hand or have one of the older pistols. This wouldn't be that big of a deal, except that the pistol best suited for carry is (IMHO) the alloy framed P12, which is no longer in their lineup. Also, from personal observation, the alloy P12s seem to have a problem with cracked frames, as 2 out of 4 that I've bought had this issue. Fortunately, I was able to return them for a full refund (after being told by Para that it would cost $300+shipping for them to replace the frame).

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of their double stack frame design and prefer it to STIs, but when I buy a Para I think of it as just a frame kit. I know there is no factory support, so I basically throw away all the MIM parts and replace them with quality aftermarket parts and go from there. I doubt I would ever buy one of their new guns.

Oh yeah, and I always check for cracks.




I thought they moved to North Carolina, not Florida? Their manufacturing facility moved to N.C. I know, but do they have a service center in Florida?
Naga
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Posted: 12/21/2011 9:42:54 AM
I had a 14-45 stainless since 1993-ish. Great gun, ran flawlessly, but a bit on the heavy side. I sold it this year because it just sits in my safe.
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deevil
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Posted: 12/21/2011 10:00:02 AM
I love my P14 and PXT SSP.
chibajoe
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Posted: 12/24/2011 2:02:19 PM
Originally Posted By keninnavarre:

I thought they moved to North Carolina, not Florida? Their manufacturing facility moved to N.C. I know, but do they have a service center in Florida?


Their US HQ was in Ft. Lauderdale before they move the whole operation to NC (before that, you had to send your gun to Canada for repairs).
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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Posted: 12/24/2011 2:16:10 PM
Originally Posted By FLATFOOT762:

Originally Posted By Dieselman:
Hi. I would like to know more about Para Ordnance 1911s, more specifically their double stack 1911s . Would Para-Ordnance be considered in the same quality tier as Springfield Armory? Depends upon who you ask. I have had a few, and have been very happy with them. Are they considered reliable out of the box without tweaking? The ones that I had were (mostly LDA's). Do they have any history of breaking parts? Not that I'm aware of. What about compatibility with other traditional single stack 1911 parts? The trigger, and the mag release are not compatable.

I have never been around Para pistols, nor do I know anyone that owns one. I am intrigued by the P14 45 model for its large capacity with a grip that Para claims is no wider than a single stack gun. Would you recommend one for concealed carry? They are a bit on the heavy/large side for concealed carry, IMO. YMMV.
Thanks




I would not recommend anything from Para. I was part of a group that ordered some SF-45-A's, which are double stack 1911's. Mine, the safety broke and fell out within 24 hours of getting it. This was after getting it 4 months later than what I was told I'd get it. A lot of other people have been having issues with it feeding. One guy had his hammer fall out at the range. He sent it back, told Para to keep the weapon. His buddy bought it refurbished. His safety also fell out. 2 major malfunctions on the same weapon. Are you willing to risk that for the price of your investment? If you want to hear other stories, check out the SF-45-A thread on here.

My recommendation is get a Springfield, or Glock, or Smith and Wesson, or Colt, or anything other than Para. I personally sent my Para back, saved up a little more money, and bought a Springfield 1911 Loaded model. I will be carrying that Springfield.
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Posted: 1/6/2012 7:50:09 PM
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
haven't seen one of their new guns in several years. the old ones were so bad most shops here wouldn't carry them anymore.


As always it seems it is a YMMV I have a 45 LDA runs fine always has with about 2000 rounds put through it
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Posted: 1/22/2012 9:59:26 AM
I have had my Warthog for about 7 years or so and it has been a superb gun. It eats everything I feed it and has never had an issue.

The negative news does give me pause and I will probably wind up using it to trade to a Colt or Springfield just because of Para's customer service reputation.

Just too bad...!
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The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 1/22/2012 1:17:55 PM
Originally Posted By hunter111:
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
haven't seen one of their new guns in several years. the old ones were so bad most shops here wouldn't carry them anymore.


As always it seems it is a YMMV I have a 45 LDA runs fine always has with about 2000 rounds put through it


your the exception
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more
important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
supplemental.
Keith_J
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Posted: 1/25/2012 12:32:56 AM
Older steel P14s are fine frames, barrels and slides. The weakness is in the parts and final assembly. If you know a good 1911 smith that WILL work on them (some are disgusted by fat bodies), they can be made into fine pistols.

Parts which are buggy? Trigger, sear, hammer, safety, firing pin block parts, extractor....well, slide stops and barrel links are ok. But definitely swap the extractor, check the ejector for fit.

Newer ones are better. People bemoan cast steel frames, these are quality investment castings which are fine in strength. Aluminum, not so much.
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chibajoe
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Posted: 1/25/2012 9:52:03 AM
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Older steel P14s are fine frames, barrels and slides. The weakness is in the parts and final assembly. If you know a good 1911 smith that WILL work on them (some are disgusted by fat bodies), they can be made into fine pistols.

Parts which are buggy? Trigger, sear, hammer, safety, firing pin block parts, extractor....well, slide stops and barrel links are ok. But definitely swap the extractor, check the ejector for fit.

Newer ones are better. People bemoan cast steel frames, these are quality investment castings which are fine in strength. Aluminum, not so much.


I've had alloy framed Paras for years now, with thousands of rounds through them. I don't think there is anything wrong with the frames, per se, but they are aluminum, and so are not as strong as the steel frames. This means you really have to stay on top of maintenance and spring replacement, otherwise the slides will beat the frames to pieces. I've owned a dozen or or so Paras, most of them with alloy frames; the only ones that were problematic were the P12s, where two frames were cracked (out of 4). I would probably not run overly hot ammo through them, though.

As a range or competition gun I wouldn't recommend them, but for daily carry the alloy frames are far more comfortable than the steel frames (it's only 6oz or so, but it is very noticeable).
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes...
That way, when you do judge them, you will be a mile away, and they will have no shoes.