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Russkie
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Posted: 5/5/2009 1:41:32 AM

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What is the stopping power on the 7.62x25 tokarev round? Vs a 9mm?

specifically, im talking about out of a Romanian Tokarev. Ive heard that the round is good at going through many layers of clothing, likewise ive heard it usually goes on through, not doing much tissue damage.

Any thoughts?
osprey21
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Posted: 5/5/2009 5:42:38 AM
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=841090


If you're looking for defensive Tok ammo - try some Wolf Gold

Or >>> http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=14
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SOC
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Posted: 5/5/2009 6:13:11 AM
7.62x25 Tokarev 1496fps 422ftlbs 85gnFMJ 18.7gnH2O

9mm Luger (Parabellum) 1100fps 333ftlbs 124gnFMJ 15.9gnH2O

I used equivalent military rounds.

You should note that 124gn 9mm NATO meets the criteria for SAMMI +P ammo.

The Czech M48 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo is loaded hot like a +P Tok and would be a better competitor with the 9mm Nato but since t is nearly impossible to find I used commonly available Romanian Surp for the data.

I was conservative on the data for both rounds, actual numbers should be a bit higher.

The Tok is limited as the most common ammo is FMJ, if you handload the Tok easily becomes a rifle in your pocket if loaded with HP or Fragmenting bullets.
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Chris_1522
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Posted: 5/5/2009 8:19:50 AM
[Last Edit: 5/5/2009 8:22:17 AM by Chris_1522]
There's only a couple of commercially loaded defensive Tok rounds out there, and they seem to perform ok, but are not at the same level as premium bullets that are available loaded in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

Here is a link to a test of Wolf's Gold JHP load. It performed pretty well.
Parrot32
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Posted: 5/5/2009 10:15:45 AM
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.
87GN
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Posted: 5/5/2009 4:09:14 PM
[Last Edit: 5/5/2009 4:11:40 PM by 87GN]
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Not according to those who have seen it in action...

Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
There's only a couple of commercially loaded defensive Tok rounds out there, and they seem to perform ok, but are not at the same level as premium bullets that are available loaded in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

Here is a link to a test of Wolf's Gold JHP load. It performed pretty well.


The 100gr XTP did very well, IMHO...14" and .5"...Ideal? No. Comparable to the 147gr 9mm used by SDPD for 20+ years and studied by Eugene Wolberg, considered to be a very good round? Yes.

It wouldn't be my first choice for a carry firearm or load but on a budget it is a great choice.
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Chris_1522
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Posted: 5/5/2009 5:20:40 PM
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
There's only a couple of commercially loaded defensive Tok rounds out there, and they seem to perform ok, but are not at the same level as premium bullets that are available loaded in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

Here is a link to a test of Wolf's Gold JHP load. It performed pretty well.


The 100gr XTP did very well, IMHO...14" and .5"...Ideal? No. Comparable to the 147gr 9mm used by SDPD for 20+ years and studied by Eugene Wolberg, considered to be a very good round? Yes.

It wouldn't be my first choice for a carry firearm or load but on a budget it is a great choice.


I'd say it's excellent, but not commercially loaded, is it? Still, a good performer.

I'd also like to see bullets designed for the .327 Federal loaded in this cartridge. Those may perform very well.
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Posted: 5/5/2009 5:26:43 PM
Keep in mind, any cool velocity figures really dont add to tissue destruction until you get over 2000 fps at the point where the bullet strikes (some bullets need to be moving even faster). So that impressive 1500 fps doesn't actually apply to tissue destruction (or what some would erroneously call "stopping power")

What that 1500fps will get you is very reliable bullet expansion, but if there's too much expansion, that can greatly hinder your penetration. I'd say with a good JHP, the cartridge would fall into the adequate, but probably not optimal category (but that's just one guy's opinion; and we all know what good opinions are).

Simply put, if it's all I had, then yes, I'm using it. If I have other options, then it becomes a truck or ATV gun...something along those lines.
87GN
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Posted: 5/5/2009 6:11:04 PM
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
There's only a couple of commercially loaded defensive Tok rounds out there, and they seem to perform ok, but are not at the same level as premium bullets that are available loaded in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

Here is a link to a test of Wolf's Gold JHP load. It performed pretty well.


The 100gr XTP did very well, IMHO...14" and .5"...Ideal? No. Comparable to the 147gr 9mm used by SDPD for 20+ years and studied by Eugene Wolberg, considered to be a very good round? Yes.

It wouldn't be my first choice for a carry firearm or load but on a budget it is a great choice.


I'd say it's excellent, but not commercially loaded, is it? Still, a good performer.

I'd also like to see bullets designed for the .327 Federal loaded in this cartridge. Those may perform very well.


Reed's loads the 100gr XTP.
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bobbyjack
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Posted: 5/11/2009 9:22:03 AM
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Funny you should say that because up until the .357 Mag it was the premo penetrator(cut right through those German
back-packs and light body armour)you should read more and post less!

Bob

Never forget Sarg Troy Jenkins a real Hero,and CPL Dunham they live side by side! Hell is full but Heaven hath no boundries!
Parrot32
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Posted: 5/11/2009 4:32:46 PM
Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Funny you should say that because up until the .357 Mag it was the premo penetrator(cut right through those German
back-packs and light body armour)you should read more and post less!

Bob



I hate to burst your fantasy but testing vs unsupported myths is what I base this on.

Brass Fetcher did some jelly tests and 7.62X25 fairs only a little better than a .380 ACP when kept as close to equal as you can.

The 380 ACP using the 90Gr Federal PD loading will penitrate about 12” of test gel. - Link

3 loads (85, 90 and 100 Gr) were tested with the 7.62X25 and resulted in: - Link
11.5”
12.3”
13.3”

And this is just shooting into gelatin. In real life, light bullets just simply do not perform well on a consistent basis…

Would I carry one and feel outgunned? No more so than I would when I carry a .380. But the question was, is it a manstopper? and the answer remains NO from all I have seen.
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Posted: 5/11/2009 4:56:12 PM
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.


Just downloaded this. Just type in the name into Google and you can download a .pdf.

Seems like an interesting read.

Thanks.
bobbyjack
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Posted: 5/11/2009 5:19:18 PM
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Funny you should say that because up until the .357 Mag it was the premo penetrator(cut right through those German
back-packs and light body armour)you should read more and post less!

Bob



I hate to burst your fantasy but testing vs unsupported myths is what I base this on.

Brass Fetcher did some jelly tests and 7.62X25 fairs only a little better than a .380 ACP when kept as close to equal as you can.

The 380 ACP using the 90Gr Federal PD loading will penitrate about 12” of test gel. - Link

3 loads (85, 90 and 100 Gr) were tested with the 7.62X25 and resulted in: - Link
11.5”
12.3”
13.3”

And this is just shooting into gelatin. In real life, light bullets just simply do not perform well on a consistent basis…

Would I carry one and feel outgunned? No more so than I would when I carry a .380. But the question was, is it a manstopper? and the answer remains NO from all I have seen.


You know what a Parrot is don't you ? Thats what you are ask the German soldiers what Cz pistol in 7.62X25 that killed
there ass was all about! You need to eat some gelatin maybe some Walnuts to get your brain in gear!

You can't rewrite History the CZ did what it was designed to do!

Bob
Never forget Sarg Troy Jenkins a real Hero,and CPL Dunham they live side by side! Hell is full but Heaven hath no boundries!
Combat_Diver
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Posted: 5/11/2009 10:05:56 PM
Originally Posted By bobbyjack:



You know what a Parrot is don't you ? Thats what you are ask the German soldiers what Cz pistol in 7.62X25 that killed
there ass was all about! You need to eat some gelatin maybe some Walnuts to get your brain in gear!

You can't rewrite History the CZ did what it was designed to do!

Bob




The CZ 52 didn't come into service until after 1952. What war did the Czechosolvakians fight against the Germans since 1952? There was no other CZ pistol in 7.62x25 produced before or after that one. 7.65x17 were produced before and after.
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Chris_1522
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Posted: 5/11/2009 10:31:28 PM
Yeah, I don't think the '52 has seen much - if any - combat anywhere.

The TT-33 or the 7.62x25 cartridge in general - another story....
87GN
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Posted: 5/11/2009 10:55:36 PM
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.


Just downloaded this. Just type in the name into Google and you can download a .pdf.

Seems like an interesting read.

Thanks.


You're welcome. It had a profound effect on my mindset when I was in Iraq.
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53vortec
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Posted: 5/11/2009 10:55:45 PM
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Not according to those who have seen it in action...

Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.


Beat me to it!
Order some golf shoes... otherwise we'll never get out of this place alive

.308- because people have a strange tendency to get behind things when you start shooting at them.
87GN
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Posted: 5/11/2009 10:57:49 PM
[Last Edit: 5/11/2009 10:59:31 PM by 87GN]
Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Not according to those who have seen it in action...

Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.


Beat me to it!


I think you and I are the only ones on this board who have read it well, now Chris_1522 knows the secret.

Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Funny you should say that because up until the .357 Mag it was the premo penetrator(cut right through those German
back-packs and light body armour)you should read more and post less!

Bob



I hate to burst your fantasy but testing vs unsupported myths is what I base this on.

Brass Fetcher did some jelly tests and 7.62X25 fairs only a little better than a .380 ACP when kept as close to equal as you can.

The 380 ACP using the 90Gr Federal PD loading will penitrate about 12” of test gel. - Link

3 loads (85, 90 and 100 Gr) were tested with the 7.62X25 and resulted in: - Link
11.5”
12.3”
13.3”

And this is just shooting into gelatin. In real life, light bullets just simply do not perform well on a consistent basis…

Would I carry one and feel outgunned? No more so than I would when I carry a .380. But the question was, is it a manstopper? and the answer remains NO from all I have seen.


13.9", not 13.3".

BTW, here's a test of Winchester Ranger 45 230gr +P. 12.6". I guess you would feel just as comfortable with a 380, huh?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/230%20grain%20+P%20Winchester%20Ranger%20JHP.html

Oh, and few handgun rounds penetrate body armor like 7.62x25.
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arty6pd
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Posted: 5/11/2009 11:34:23 PM
[Last Edit: 5/12/2009 12:11:38 AM by arty6pd]
Well, I happen to shoot a 7.62 X 25 tok. I also happen to shoot a 9mm. I shoot a couple of .45's too, along with a .380 and a couple of 9X 18's thrown in for good measure. I have never shot at anyone with any of those cartridges, and Im sure that 99.999% of everyone in here in ARFCOM havent, either. The facts are that the cartridge did excellent execution on the germans during world war ll. We know this from history. I wasnt there and I have no first hand experience so Im talking second hand here.

I can tell anyone that its a handful no matter what handgun its chambered in. I shoot a TT33 and a CZ52. Both of these pistols feel like magnums to shoot. I also shoot a small Colt in .380 along with an LCP. I own and shoot two S & W stainless handguns in 9mm and also a S & W in 4506 and 4516. Those two are a handful on the range and so is the LCP, of course.

I can go on record here on ARFCOM and say, from my experience, that the .380 cartridge is no 7.62 X 25 tokarev. It is not even in the ball park as far as penetration is concerned. I havent tried ballistic gel. Just the poor man telephone book stuff, okay. I can go on the record too, that the .45 is no 7.62 X 25 tokarev as far as penetration is concerened, either, and Im not gonna argue stopping stopping power. I havent ever shot anything but rabbits, freezer meat or paper with any of them. The .380 will kill a rabbit or a 800 pound steer for the freezer deader than $1.00 a gallon gasoline. So will the Tokarev, .9mm, and the .45. Personally, I would not want to have a bullet from any of these cartridges perforating any part of my body. It will not be a healthy condition I know.

The issue here is more of what is the cool factor than anything else. Im my opinion. Handguns chambered for the tokarev cartridge are few and far between and for some guys, they are ugly as hell. Which they are. NOT cool!!! Like a Kimber, a Springfield, Sig or a Glock, for sure. As for me, however, I like what they look like and the history they represent. I like the price of the ammo, too, cuz its still cheap and seems to be plentiful. Its not on the shelf at Wal Mart but who cares? It only takes a week to have some deliverered to my house. I can shoot the stuff and not feel guilty of hoarding or feel like i have to immediately go find another box, or a case, to replace what I just shot up.

My Tokarevs make me feel warm and fuzzy and guilt free because I know I will always have ammo for them.

My .02 cents worth
" We only get the part of the story the media gives us anyway, so my opinion is as good as any"
SIPCAT-C
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Posted: 5/11/2009 11:43:54 PM
I have a few 9mm (Glock 17, CZ-75, P38)
I have a 1911
I have a Romanian Tokarev

Tokarev penetrates the furthest of all of them.
However, it leaves the smallest hole.
Parrot32
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Posted: 5/12/2009 8:15:54 AM
Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Not according to those who have seen it in action...

Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.


Beat me to it!


I did – what was I supposed to see?

I would have to dig but I think I have a reference to someone downing a charging lion with a .455 Webly… Does that one reference make it an African Game - Lion Stopper?

Then too I have some books by Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith & Bill Jordan and even read La Garde & Thompson’s Gunshot Injuries (from the public library no less ). Not one of them subscribe to the idea of the 7.62 X 25 as a manstopper.

So far, the defenders here have nothing to offer nothing but emotion and ridicule.

If it were so good and had so much power, why did the German Army abandon it in 1908?

Why is the .30 Carbine, heaver and faster, not known as a manstopper?

If the .380 ACP goes 12” and the 7.62 X 25 goes the same what magic makes one mediocre and the other awesome?

Armor piercing vs man stopping – 2 distinctly and completely incompatible results.

I am open minded gang, give me something interesting.
87GN
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Posted: 5/12/2009 9:57:05 AM
[Last Edit: 5/12/2009 10:31:47 AM by 87GN]
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Been out for over 100 years and has yet to ever be cited for its’ stopping power…

No matter what you do your dealing with a copper jacketed featherweight round. Just not going to happen.


Not according to those who have seen it in action...

Read "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They discuss 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25 at a lower pressure) and its effects in gunfights in 1930s Shanghai.


Beat me to it!


I did – what was I supposed to see?

I would have to dig but I think I have a reference to someone downing a charging lion with a .455 Webly… Does that one reference make it an African Game - Lion Stopper?

Then too I have some books by Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith & Bill Jordan and even read La Garde & Thompson’s Gunshot Injuries (from the public library no less ). Not one of them subscribe to the idea of the 7.62 X 25 as a manstopper.

So far, the defenders here have nothing to offer nothing but emotion and ridicule.

If it were so good and had so much power, why did the German Army abandon it in 1908?

Why is the .30 Carbine, heaver and faster, not known as a manstopper?

If the .380 ACP goes 12” and the 7.62 X 25 goes the same what magic makes one mediocre and the other awesome?

Armor piercing vs man stopping – 2 distinctly and completely incompatible results.

I am open minded gang, give me something interesting.


A single load of .380 penetrates 12" - but barely expands - and you're ready to call that the equal of a round that goes 14" and expands 1.5X? I guess to you, FMJ that penetrates 20" plus is the great "manstopper" huh?

Why don't you respond to the 45 round that went 12.6"?

I can find you plenty of 9mm, 40 and 45 loads that penetrate under 10".

I don't think you understand ballistics testing or terminal performance (at least not since 1904, believe it or not, advances have been made in ballistics testing since then) and are injecting a lot of hearsay into the discussion. "Known as a manstopper" is an undefined and very subjective phrase. Oh - you read the whole book?
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Parrot32
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Posted: 5/12/2009 2:28:15 PM
Originally Posted By 87GN:

A single load of .380 penetrates 12" - but barely expands - and you're ready to call that the equal of a round that goes 14" and expands 1.5X? I guess to you, FMJ that penetrates 20" plus is the great "manstopper" huh?

Why don't you respond to the 45 round that went 12.6"?

I can find you plenty of 9mm, 40 and 45 loads that penetrate under 10".

I don't think you understand ballistics testing or terminal performance (at least not since 1904, believe it or not, advances have been made in ballistics testing since then) and are injecting a lot of hearsay into the discussion. "Known as a manstopper" is an undefined and very subjective phrase. Oh - you read the whole book?


Apples to apples:

90 Gr .380 = Average recovered diameter = 0.469”

90 Gr 7.62X25 = .498" average diameter

I understand a lot more than you think you do

Again little to really offer so we have to resort to insults...
87GN
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Posted: 5/12/2009 2:53:54 PM
[Last Edit: 5/12/2009 3:18:21 PM by 87GN]
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Originally Posted By 87GN:

A single load of .380 penetrates 12" - but barely expands - and you're ready to call that the equal of a round that goes 14" and expands 1.5X? I guess to you, FMJ that penetrates 20" plus is the great "manstopper" huh?

Why don't you respond to the 45 round that went 12.6"?

I can find you plenty of 9mm, 40 and 45 loads that penetrate under 10".

I don't think you understand ballistics testing or terminal performance (at least not since 1904, believe it or not, advances have been made in ballistics testing since then) and are injecting a lot of hearsay into the discussion. "Known as a manstopper" is an undefined and very subjective phrase. Oh - you read the whole book?


Apples to apples:

90 Gr .380 = Average recovered diameter = 0.469”

90 Gr 7.62X25 = .498" average diameter

I understand a lot more than you think you do

Again little to really offer so we have to resort to insults...


Why limit it to 90gr?

Does this mean that absolutely no comparison can be drawn between any two bullets unless they are the same weight?

You are pulling arbitrary rules out of thin air. The 100gr bullet expands more and penetrates nearly 2" farther. This puts it squarely in 9mm territory. As I said before, it is very, very close in terms of terminal performance to the 147gr 9mm load that was tested in ballistic gelatin and then compared to actual shooting results - the findings matched one another, and the round had a good record with the San Diego PD. It penetrated between 12" and 14" and expanded between .47" and .55", compare this to 13.9" and .50" for the 100gr 7.62x25.

Oh, and where did I insult you?
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shotar
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Posted: 5/12/2009 6:06:33 PM
I am personally aware of one local shooting with this round. A right wing extremist opened fire on a policeman. The officer dove prone on the front seat of his cruiser. The nutbag fired again striking the officer in the buttock. The round penetrated to his chest cavity and the officer was DRT.

I'd say it's nothing to be sneezed at or underrated.
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Parrot32
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Posted: 5/13/2009 7:27:34 AM
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Originally Posted By 87GN:

A single load of .380 penetrates 12" - but barely expands - and you're ready to call that the equal of a round that goes 14" and expands 1.5X? I guess to you, FMJ that penetrates 20" plus is the great "manstopper" huh?

Why don't you respond to the 45 round that went 12.6"?

I can find you plenty of 9mm, 40 and 45 loads that penetrate under 10".

I don't think you understand ballistics testing or terminal performance (at least not since 1904, believe it or not, advances have been made in ballistics testing since then) and are injecting a lot of hearsay into the discussion. "Known as a manstopper" is an undefined and very subjective phrase. Oh - you read the whole book?


Apples to apples:

90 Gr .380 = Average recovered diameter = 0.469”

90 Gr 7.62X25 = .498" average diameter

I understand a lot more than you think you do

Again little to really offer so we have to resort to insults...


Why limit it to 90gr?

Does this mean that absolutely no comparison can be drawn between any two bullets unless they are the same weight?

You are pulling arbitrary rules out of thin air. The 100gr bullet expands more and penetrates nearly 2" farther. This puts it squarely in 9mm territory. As I said before, it is very, very close in terms of terminal performance to the 147gr 9mm load that was tested in ballistic gelatin and then compared to actual shooting results - the findings matched one another, and the round had a good record with the San Diego PD. It penetrated between 12" and 14" and expanded between .47" and .55", compare this to 13.9" and .50" for the 100gr 7.62x25.

Oh, and where did I insult you?


The limits on weight are necessary to keep things on equal footing or at least as close as possible.

Actually what I find curious is the lack of testing, evidence and history…

As I mentioned the Germans invented it and shortly dropped it.

The Russians and Chinese used it for many years and dropped it.

The current crop from Czechoslovakia is because they replaced them…

So all of these major players turned their back on this round because of its’ superior performance???

Then when someone actually does ballistic testing in almost every case this round is overlooked and never even tested, why?

Is it better than the .380 ACP? Yes, all indications would point to that conclusion. Is it vastly superior? 100+ years of history do not indicate that it is.
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