Is H&K in danger of going bankrupt?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is H&K in danger of going bankrupt?

Posted: 7/15/2017 4:11:32 AM EDT

I read the article but lost it when I tried to go back and post the link. Basically said they are close to bankruptcy due to not making the sales on there g36 rifle. Anyone have more info on this?

Posted: 7/15/2017 5:19:53 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I read the article but lost it when I tried to go back and post the link. Basically said they are close to bankruptcy due to not making the sales on there g36 rifle. Anyone have more info on this?

View Quote

I didn't read the article but I highly doubt it. While their G36 hasn't been that big of a success their 416 and 417 rifles have done very well. Those rifles are being used all over the world currently. The G36 is still being produced and sold as well. I'm not sure which countries use them but there are more than a few.

Their handguns still do very well. Their sales of their VP series pistols has been pretty good. I think that is in large part because of the VP series price. HK seems to be really trying to compete in a very saturated striker fired hand gun market. That being said I have always been partial to their DA/SA guns. The My favorite is the P30, it is a tank, and an excellent pistol. Over on PT they did a tourture test on the P30. The initial test was supposed to be a 50K round test. They ended up doing a little over 90,000 rounds. Impressed the hell out of me. That is why I own one.
P30 test

I don't see HK going anywhere anytime soon. In my opinion that is a good thing. While the market is saturated, competition breeds innovation. Ultimately we are the real winners in the great handgun war.

Posted: 7/15/2017 5:59:31 AM EDT

[#2]

I built a deep-hole drill (barrels)for them, when they thought, the ARMY was going to adopt the XM8.

Suckers!

Posted: 7/15/2017 6:02:31 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
I built a deep-hole drill (barrels)for them, when they thought, the ARMY was going to adopt the XM8.

Suckers!

View Quote

I wanted the XM8 so bad back in the day. I was reminded of this the other day while watching Children of men.

. From my understanding though the XM8 was basically a G36.

Posted: 7/15/2017 6:26:25 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:

I didn't read the article but I highly doubt it. While their G36 hasn't been that big of a success their 416 and 417 rifles have done very well. Those rifles are being used all over the world currently. The G36 is still being produced and sold as well. I'm not sure which countries use them but there are more than a few.

Their handguns still do very well. Their sales of their VP series pistols has been pretty good. I think that is in large part because of the VP series price. HK seems to be really trying to compete in a very saturated striker fired hand gun market. That being said I have always been partial to their DA/SA guns. The My favorite is the P30, it is a tank, and an excellent pistol. Over on PT they did a tourture test on the P30. The initial test was supposed to be a 50K round test. They ended up doing a little over 90,000 rounds. Impressed the hell out of me. That is why I own one.
P30 test

I don't see HK going anywhere anytime soon. In my opinion that is a good thing. While the market is saturated, competition breeds innovation. Ultimately we are the real winners in the great handgun war.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I read the article but lost it when I tried to go back and post the link. Basically said they are close to bankruptcy due to not making the sales on there g36 rifle. Anyone have more info on this?

I didn't read the article but I highly doubt it. While their G36 hasn't been that big of a success their 416 and 417 rifles have done very well. Those rifles are being used all over the world currently. The G36 is still being produced and sold as well. I'm not sure which countries use them but there are more than a few.

Their handguns still do very well. Their sales of their VP series pistols has been pretty good. I think that is in large part because of the VP series price. HK seems to be really trying to compete in a very saturated striker fired hand gun market. That being said I have always been partial to their DA/SA guns. The My favorite is the P30, it is a tank, and an excellent pistol. Over on PT they did a tourture test on the P30. The initial test was supposed to be a 50K round test. They ended up doing a little over 90,000 rounds. Impressed the hell out of me. That is why I own one.
P30 test

I don't see HK going anywhere anytime soon. In my opinion that is a good thing. While the market is saturated, competition breeds innovation. Ultimately we are the real winners in the great handgun war.

thank you,that makes me feel better. Was getting ready to do a shopping spree on extra mags! Love my HK pistols. Won't buy anything else..

Posted: 7/15/2017 8:31:06 AM EDT

[#5]

The German military appears to have dropped the G36 due to poor accuracy when it heats up. Replacement is a Steyr model. I can see H&K being in trouble if the G36 is fully dropped.

Posted: 7/15/2017 11:03:41 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
The German military appears to have dropped the G36 due to poor accuracy when it heats up. Replacement is a Steyr model. I can see H&K being in trouble if the G36 is fully dropped.

View Quote

A single system is not going to end HK. They are well diversified. The G36 is a rifle that HK has already got their R&D money out of. The G36 is a rifle they have been selling since the 90s. The 416 and 417 are their new darling rifles. They are selling the hell out of them. On top of that their handgun sales have also been exceptional.

Posted: 7/15/2017 11:25:44 AM EDT

[#7]

HK is like Colt, they're constantly facing money issues.

The G36 was a huge success as were the 416 and to a lesser extent the 417.

I'm very intrigued by the HK433. I really hope the rumors surrounding the Georgia plant building 416s and 433s for the US civilian market are true, but I'm fairly certain that will never happen.

Posted: 7/15/2017 11:31:36 AM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:

I wanted the XM8 so bad back in the day. I was reminded of this the other day while watching Children of men.

. From my understanding though the XM8 was basically a G36.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

I wanted the XM8 so bad back in the day. I was reminded of this the other day while watching Children of men.

. From my understanding though the XM8 was basically a G36.

@Charlie_Foxtrot
Hey anything is possible with enough $$ good sir

XM8 You can own

Quoted:
HK is like Colt, they're constantly facing money issues.

The G36 was a huge success as were the 416 and to a lesser extent the 417.

I'm very intrigued by the HK433. I really hope the rumors surrounding the Georgia plant building 416s and 433s for the US civilian market are true, but I'm fairly certain that will never happen.

holy shit it's like a ACR got fucked by a hot Italian model

Posted: 7/15/2017 12:03:37 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
HK is like Colt, they're constantly facing money issues.

The G36 was a huge success as were the 416 and to a lesser extent the 417.

I'm very intrigued by the HK433. I really hope the rumors surrounding the Georgia plant building 416s and 433s for the US civilian market are true, but I'm fairly certain that will never happen.

View Quote

Does the civi market amount to much of anything to a outfit like H&K? Any place that is tied to gov contracts
is going to be operating on a boom or bust type of cycle.

Posted: 7/15/2017 1:33:54 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
Does the civi market amount to much of anything to a outfit like H&K? Any place that is tied to gov contracts
is going to be operating on a boom or bust type of cycle.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
HK is like Colt, they're constantly facing money issues.

The G36 was a huge success as were the 416 and to a lesser extent the 417.

I'm very intrigued by the HK433. I really hope the rumors surrounding the Georgia plant building 416s and 433s for the US civilian market are true, but I'm fairly certain that will never happen.

Does the civi market amount to much of anything to a outfit like H&K? Any place that is tied to gov contracts
is going to be operating on a boom or bust type of cycle.

Im trying to remember the exact number, but IIRC 70% of SIG sales is US civilians. The remaining 30% is all foreign and domestic military and LE combined.

The US civilian market is the single largest market for firearms in the world. There are no contracts big enough to compete.

Posted: 7/15/2017 1:35:02 PM EDT

[#11]

The real issue for HK, and all the German firearms manufacturers is the political climate in Germany.

Large sections of their electorate are center left at best, and there is embarrassment in these leftist/socialist groups that German companies are still some of the preeminent firearms manufacturers on the planet. Add the marketing shenanigans that Sig pulled, thus forcing them to give up production in Germany, and the picture is quite complicated.

Certainly the issues with the G36 are not helping HK, but there is more to their troubles than just one poorly designed rifle.

Posted: 7/15/2017 1:38:19 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
@Charlie_Foxtrot
Hey anything is possible with enough $ good sir

XM8 You can own

holy shit it's like a ACR got fucked by a hot Italian model

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/HK433left-660x349.jpg

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

I wanted the XM8 so bad back in the day. I was reminded of this the other day while watching Children of men.

. From my understanding though the XM8 was basically a G36.

@Charlie_Foxtrot
Hey anything is possible with enough $ good sir

XM8 You can own

Quoted:
HK is like Colt, they're constantly facing money issues.

The G36 was a huge success as were the 416 and to a lesser extent the 417.

I'm very intrigued by the HK433. I really hope the rumors surrounding the Georgia plant building 416s and 433s for the US civilian market are true, but I'm fairly certain that will never happen.

holy shit it's like a ACR got fucked by a hot Italian model

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/HK433left-660x349.jpg

ACR looks way better!

Posted: 7/15/2017 5:24:18 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

@Charlie_Foxtrot
Hey anything is possible with enough $ good sir

XM8 You can own

holy shit it's like a ACR got fucked by a hot Italian model

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/HK433left-660x349.jpg

View Quote

Looks like an FN SCAR/ SIG55X love child.

Posted: 7/16/2017 10:08:24 AM EDT

[#14]

That rifle above would be in my possession in short order if sold here. BTW how would I suppress it?
Looks like it might need a thread extension. If HK were in trouble I would guess they could resolve that
fairly quickly by making several of their rifles and sub guns here for our market. How many mp5's would they sell if they were readily available?

Posted: 7/16/2017 2:38:39 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
The real issue for HK, and all the German firearms manufacturers is the political climate in Germany.

Large sections of their electorate are center left at best, and there is embarrassment in these leftist/socialist groups that German companies are still some of the preeminent firearms manufacturers on the planet. Add the marketing shenanigans that Sig pulled, thus forcing them to give up production in Germany, and the picture is quite complicated.

Certainly the issues with the G36 are not helping HK, but there is more to their troubles than just one poorly designed rifle.

View Quote

. What was the sight marketing shenanigans?

Posted: 7/16/2017 3:29:50 PM EDT

[#16]

Selling weapons to countries on the "No sales" list.

Posted: 7/16/2017 3:32:30 PM EDT

[#17]

They'd be rolling in money if they brought all their shit over here and started pumping out unmolested true to form MP5 series and MP7's as pistols easily reconfigurable to SBRs, 416/417's to include pistol variants and short barreled uppers, G36 series, the P7 pistol series, even the XM8 I'd buy the shit out of that flaws and all. I bet they could sell quite a few PSG-1's even at the price they'd require. I don't want any of the above 'modernized', or tapcofucked, or sporterized, I want the guns I grew to love from video games and movies. I don't think I'm alone here either. What's best, is that the tooling and R&D have all been long paid off on these designs, they're bought and paid for, just sell them to us!

Posted: 7/18/2017 12:37:19 AM EDT

[#18]

They are doing well, 2016 was better than 2015. They lost €21 m in 2015 and made €42 in 2016. You can read it on their homepage.

http://www.heckler-koch.com/no_cache/de/ir/abschluesse.html?tx

Posted: 7/18/2017 1:27:51 AM EDT

[#19]

Isnt HK partially subsidized by the government itself?

Posted: 7/18/2017 2:00:34 AM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Selling weapons to countries on the "No sales" list.

View Quote

SIG didn't make the sale. The US government sold the Colombian government 65,000 SIG pistols. Because German small arms ended up in Columbia (an active conflict zone =forbidden), Germany revoked German SIG's export permit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070

German SIG (the better SIG) can still sell to Germany, and US SIG Sauer was not affected, so it didn't really hurt their business model.

HK commands a higher percentage of the LE/mil market than SIG does. There's basically only one HK, while SIG is a very fractured organization. SIG Sauer US has been pushing watered-down products hard onto the civilian market since 2004, and they've done their best to convince everyone it's all still LE/mil quality. Some cops (London Metro, others) even believed it. The SEALs gave up on them though.
I guess we'll see how the XM17 pans out.

Posted: 7/18/2017 2:03:56 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
I bet they could sell quite a few PSG-1's even at the price they'd require.

View Quote

No, they couldn't. PSG-1 rifles were available for decades at a bit over $10k and they never sold.
HK demands too much money. I think that's one of their problems. Or is it?

They're making plenty of profit and demand for their product is high. They win.

Posted: 7/18/2017 2:51:26 AM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
SIG didn't make the sale. The US government sold the Colombian government 65,000 SIG pistols. Because German small arms ended up in Columbia (an active conflict zone =forbidden), Germany revoked German SIG's export permit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070

German SIG (the better SIG) can still sell to Germany, and US SIG Sauer was not affected, so it didn't really hurt their business model.

HK commands a higher percentage of the LE/mil market than SIG does. There's basically only one HK, while SIG is a very fractured organization. SIG Sauer US has been pushing watered-down products hard onto the civilian market since 2004, and they've done their best to convince everyone it's all still LE/mil quality. Some cops (London Metro, others) even believed it. The SEALs gave up on them though.
I guess we'll see how the XM17 pans out.

View Quote

Don't you mean the P226/Mk25 contract ran out? I think the Army going with the M17/18 negates the SIG NSW decades old contract ending. How about ICE picking up the P320 (among others)... or Loudoun County Sheriff's Department picking the P320. For those of you not up on your Virginia counties, Loudoun is where HK USA's corporate office is. CBP/BP will be up for a new pistol soon - should be interesting to see if they ditch the P2000.

Posted: 7/18/2017 3:12:55 AM EDT

[#23]

It'll be negated if NSW uses the new SIG. They seem to be content with their Glocks and HKs.
ICE is part of DHS now, and they do not have the best track record of selecting handguns. (P229R DAK in .40 S&W)

Yes, it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Posted: 7/18/2017 4:40:18 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
SIG Sauer US has been pushing watered-down products hard onto the civilian market since 2004, and they've done their best to convince everyone it's all still LE/mil quality. Some cops (London Metro, others) even believed it. The SEALs gave up on them though.
I guess we'll see how the XM17 pans out.

View Quote

I have been beating that drum for years. Sig US are even worse now than they were in the mid 2000s. Then starting around 2010 or so the quality has dropped off, changes were made to products that rendered them less reliable and less durable, but easier and cheaper to produce. They are trading on their brands history. They remind me of GM naming current shitty vehicles after older, well know, quality vehicles from their past. Guns like the M11A1 are prime examples of this marketing trickery. The average buyer doesn't realize that the M11A1 is nothing like a true M11/P228. IMO Cohen is to blame for all of this. He expanded Kimbers brand when he was there and at the same time wreaked their reputation though terrible QC and build quality, then topped it off with even worse customer service. Since Cohen took over in 2005, Sig has followed this same path as Kimber. Profit over quality.

HK, I do not feel has ever had this problem. They spend a lot of money on R&D and often do not turn a profit on those projects. They have a trail of failed projects and products. The G11, XM29 OICW, XM8, P11 and so on never made it to service. The development of the ammunition for the G11 alone had to be really expensive. This kind of exsessive devlopment is why I believe HK is currently in the red. Their products however are quality and I believe that is what will save them.

Posted: 7/18/2017 7:57:04 AM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
SIG didn't make the sale. The US government sold the Colombian government 65,000 SIG pistols. Because German small arms ended up in Columbia (an active conflict zone =forbidden), Germany revoked German SIG's export permit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070

German SIG (the better SIG) can still sell to Germany, and US SIG Sauer was not affected, so it didn't really hurt their business model.

HK commands a higher percentage of the LE/mil market than SIG does. There's basically only one HK, while SIG is a very fractured organization. SIG Sauer US has been pushing watered-down products hard onto the civilian market since 2004, and they've done their best to convince everyone it's all still LE/mil quality. Some cops (London Metro, others) even believed it. The SEALs gave up on them though.
I guess we'll see how the XM17 pans out.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
SIG didn't make the sale. The US government sold the Colombian government 65,000 SIG pistols. Because German small arms ended up in Columbia (an active conflict zone =forbidden), Germany revoked German SIG's export permit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070

German SIG (the better SIG) can still sell to Germany, and US SIG Sauer was not affected, so it didn't really hurt their business model.

HK commands a higher percentage of the LE/mil market than SIG does. There's basically only one HK, while SIG is a very fractured organization. SIG Sauer US has been pushing watered-down products hard onto the civilian market since 2004, and they've done their best to convince everyone it's all still LE/mil quality. Some cops (London Metro, others) even believed it. The SEALs gave up on them though.
I guess we'll see how the XM17 pans out.

NSW didn't "give them up". The contract was completed and the guns needed service life replacement. Instead of running their own pistol trials for a new gun or re-up the contract they got cheap/free G19s from SOCOM.

Quoted:
Don't you mean the P226/Mk25 contract ran out? I think the Army going with the M17/18 negates the SIG NSW decades old contract ending. How about ICE picking up the P320 (among others)... or Loudoun County Sheriff's Department picking the P320. For those of you not up on your Virginia counties, Loudoun is where HK USA's corporate office is. CBP/BP will be up for a new pistol soon - should be interesting to see if they ditch the P2000.

Right now the M17/M18 is an Army contract. If a second service jumps on, like was done with the M9, it most likely will snowball into a DoD-wide adoption. At which point you'll see SOCOM pushing them to the various sub-components because they're "free". Basically what's been done with the M4 after SOCOM spent al ltheir time developing the SCAR.

All speculation aside, HK rifle use is essentially limited to 416s, 417s, and MP7s in use with JSOC elements. And even that is not extensive or guaranteed. Pistol use is limited to HK45Cs and MK23s in limited to no service in NSW armories. You don't, and won't, see USPs, P2000s, P30s, or VP9s in US military service.

As I understand, there are limitations to HK making their rifles here, as Germany won't allow those designs to be exported for manufacture elsewhere that might make them for civilian use as not only the guns are restricted, but the IP for those guns is restricted by the German government.

Posted: 7/18/2017 8:18:56 AM EDT

[#26]

I just surfed through some threads on HKPro. It's the same furious masturbating, based on hearsay and single unsourceable TFB quotes, that's been going on there as long as I can remember.

The one interesting piece I saw was that 40% of HK sales are US civilian market. Which if the execs have any sense, and want to continue to embezzle from HK, they'll take advantage of. Increasing their US civilian market will by extension increase their US LE market as well.

Posted: 7/18/2017 10:46:22 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
NSW didn't "give them up". The contract was completed and the guns needed service life replacement. Instead of running their own pistol trials for a new gun or re-up the contract they got cheap/free G19s from SOCOM.

View Quote

Do you not think NSW can issue whatever handguns they want?
They were still ordering small batches of 10-20 MK25 pistols as late as 2015, and the most recent FFP contract was a 5-year block from May 2011 through May 2016. They certainly could have renewed it.

Are you suggesting they switched because of the price of the Glocks? They have no shortage of funding, and NSW has a solid track record of selecting top-performing products.
I have no knowledge of NSW offloading the SIGs they have now. We're just talking current/future acquisition. I've seen photos of early 1990's P226 pistols still in service at NSW.
The P239 and HK MK24 are said to be used for plainclothes ops.

My theory is they stopped acquiring MK25 pistols due to lower production QC.
I never could find any confirmation that NSW specified cast (non-MIM) parts in their MK25, but I do know that was an option for government agency contracts.

Posted: 7/18/2017 11:06:39 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
Do you not think NSW can issue whatever handguns they want?
They were still ordering small batches of 10-20 MK25 pistols as late as 2015, and the most recent FFP contract was a 5-year block from May 2011 through May 2016. They certainly could have renewed it.

Are you suggesting they switched because of the price of the Glocks? They have no shortage of funding, and NSW has a solid track record of selecting top-performing products.
I have no knowledge of NSW offloading the SIGs they have now. We're just talking current/future acquisition. I've seen photos of early 1990's P226 pistols still in service at NSW.
The P239 and HK MK24 are said to be used for plainclothes ops.

My theory is they stopped acquiring MK25 pistols due to lower production QC.
I never could find any confirmation that NSW specified cast (non-MIM) parts in their MK25, but I do know that was an option for government agency contracts.

View Quote

So what backs up that theory against what was publicly released regarding to the end of the contract.

Yes they order small numbers and yes they could extend. But when you need to replace a whole fleet at the end of its service life it makes sense to select something entirely new, or you have trouble getting rid of the old worm out gear.

And it's a common misconception SOF has an unlimited budget. It was publicly stated that NSW could get 2 G19s for the price of 2 SIGs, and the G19 would replace both the 226 and 239. Basically resulting in a 75% reduction in side arm costs. That saved money can buy them all sorts of other equipment they need or want.

The HK45C is basically used as a specialty gun for suppressed use.

Posted: 7/18/2017 11:27:58 AM EDT

[#29]

I'm not sure how my theory goes against what was publicly released. It really was the end of the contract.

Yes the Glocks save money. No I do not think they have unlimited money, just broad selection authority when it comes to gear.

Posted: 7/18/2017 11:36:26 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
HK, I do not feel has ever had this problem. They spend a lot of money on R&D and often do not turn a profit on those projects. They have a trail of failed projects and products. The G11, XM29 OICW, XM8, P11 and so on never made it to service. The development of the ammunition for the G11 alone had to be really expensive. This kind of exsessive devlopment is why I believe HK is currently in the red. Their products however are quality and I believe that is what will save them.

View Quote

Cohen joined SIG in 2004, then became CEO the following year. Yes, it's apparently been very profitable for them, to the detriment of quality. I agree they are marketing based off their former reputation.

HK rarely spends their own R&D money. Rest assured they were fully funded by our tax dollars for most of the projects you named. I believe they did refine the G11's caseless ammo on their own, after it lost the ACR competition.

The XM8 saw some action in the hands of Blackwater contractors.

The Royal Malaysian Navy uses them today.

The OICW got split into the XM8 and XM25. The XM25 saw service with the US Army, where failures caused it to be removed from service. There were some injuries.

Do you have information that the P11 was never deployed by US forces? I thought it had been, although info on it is scarce. Wikipedia says SOCOM has 100 of them.

Yes, HK products have always been high quality. HK is not responsible for the failures of the XM25, just like it wasn't their responsibility to specify the high-temp performance of the G36. The organization issuing the RFP (German Army) should have done that; the German courts agreed.

I think the 433 is their answer to the G36, SCAR, ACR, ARX, APC556, 805 Bren.
HK isn't out any money on the G36. They were paid for all of them.

Posted: 7/18/2017 12:53:26 PM EDT

[#31]

Great companies with great products go bankrupt all the time. Bad management, poor decisions, expanding too fast and market fluxuations take their toll.
I hope it isn't true but these things happen.

Posted: 7/18/2017 4:00:10 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
No, they couldn't. PSG-1 rifles were available for decades at a bit over $10k and they never sold.
HK demands too much money. I think that's one of their problems. Or is it?

They're making plenty of profit and demand for their product is high. They win.

View Quote

You don't think a limited run of PSG-1s would sell? The civilian FN SAW sells at 7.5k even with being hamstrung being a semi-auto belt fed .223. On the used market PSG-1's usually go for 15k plus . I'm not saying they'd sell tens of thousands, but I think a limited release batch priced around 10k or even higher would probably sell as good or even better than the FN 249S.

Posted: 7/18/2017 4:06:19 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

You don't think a limited run of PSG-1s would sell? The civilian FN SAW sells at 7.5k even with being hamstrung being a semi-auto belt fed .223. On the used market PSG-1's usually go for 15k plus . I'm not saying they'd sell tens of thousands, but I think a limited release batch priced around 10k or even higher would probably sell as good or even better than the FN 249S.

View Quote

You're not going to see a limited run of PSG1s for the same reason you don't see limited runs of Sig 552s. The Equipment is not available in the US to build those guns.

Posted: 7/18/2017 6:04:18 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:

Do you have information that the P11 was never deployed by US forces? I thought it had been, although info on it is scarce. Wikipedia says SOCOM has 100 of them.

View Quote

I believe SOCOM received some to test but I do not believe it was deployed. Then again I could be wrong. There are plenty of clandestine groups in the military that gets their hands on all kinds of stuff we rarely hear about. CAG had Glock 22s and Glock 23s made for them back in 2006. They also tested Glock 21s and Glock 30s. This is how we all got the RTF2 textured Glocks. Though Glock never released the Glock 30RTF2 and didn't release the FDE version until the FDE Vickers Glock 19/17. Some of the pilots with the FCD, (guys that fly the stealth black hawks like the one that crashed in the Bin laden raid), carry Glock 26s supposedly though I haven't been able to confirm that.

So who knows what they have. I would love to see their arms room. They probably have some badass stuff that the public has never seen.

Posted: 7/18/2017 9:36:46 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
So who knows what they have. I would love to see their arms room. They probably have some badass stuff that the public has never seen.

View Quote

No doubt.

I've seen pics of Delta's Glocks with the dark earth mags, so they could tell which mags were .40's. Smart.

I'd really love to fire the SMG, SMG II, and MP2000. In 1985, HK delivered some SMG II units to the Navy (NSWC Crane) for testing. The story is that DEVGRU ended up with them, and used them for a long time.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-talk/88665-sighting-smg1-action.html
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=2727

Posted: 7/23/2017 10:33:08 AM EDT

[#36]

If they would make their products more available in the US they wouldnt have that problem. People have been asking for a civilian g36 forever and if they could make mr556's more affordable they would have way more sales.

Posted: 8/5/2017 8:32:03 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:

Im trying to remember the exact number, but IIRC 70% of SIG sales is US civilians. The remaining 30% is all foreign and domestic military and LE combined.

The US civilian market is the single largest market for firearms in the world. There are no contracts big enough to compete.

View Quote

Someone very high up at FN told me the exact same thing. The US commercial market buys more guns than any government. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Posted: 8/5/2017 10:59:14 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

@Charlie_Foxtrot
Hey anything is possible with enough $ good sir

XM8 You can own

holy shit it's like a ACR got fucked by a hot Italian model

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/HK433left-660x349.jpg

View Quote

Want!!!

Posted: 8/6/2017 11:06:44 AM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:

Im trying to remember the exact number, but IIRC 70% of SIG sales is US civilians. The remaining 30% is all foreign and domestic military and LE combined.

The US civilian market is the single largest market for firearms in the world. There are no contracts big enough to compete.

View Quote

True that. I agree.

Posted: 8/9/2017 9:47:32 PM EDT

[#40]

Any word on what plans HK has for the plant being built in the US?

From what I understand the problems with HK bringing some of their more desired products has to do with the double hurdle of German export and US import laws which makes it nigh impossible to get anything but pistols here.

I have my hopes up, but the current leftist German government will still somehow fuck with them with a plant in the US.

I would imagine labor and transportation is a lot cheaper, so that may help with the bottom line.

Posted: 8/11/2017 1:08:50 AM EDT

[#41]

No speculation necessary, the info can all be found.

Business Summary
Logo Heckler & KochHeckler & Koch is specialized in manufacturing and marketing of small firearms intended for use by the armies, special operations forces, security forces and police. Net sales break down by family of products and services as follows:
- pistols (43%);
- Machine guns and sub-machine guns (20%);
- rifles (18%): assault rifles and sniper rifles;
- other (19%): primarily training systems, 40 mm grenade launchers, sports weapons and design services.
Net sales break down geographically as follows: Germany (44.1%), the United States (39.7%), France (9.4%) and the United Kingdom (6.8%).

Number of employees : 691 persons.

View Quote

Heckler & Koch summary

The German government has no legal reasons to stop H&K to open up a factory in the U.S. It would save on shipping and labour cost, particularly when benefits are considered, labour cost is quite a bit higher in Germany than in most parts of the U.S.

HK initiated a court hearing against itself and successfully stopped the government from suing them over the G36. The G36 works as it was required by the Bundeswehr. The complaint was that 200 rounds were fired full auto in a test and then the rifle was shot at 200 meters for accuracy. Hits were only 7%. Consider that the MG3 has to have the barrel changed after 150 rounds - and an asbestos glove is issued for that.

Posted: 8/11/2017 1:19:30 AM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
The German military appears to have dropped the G36 due to poor accuracy when it heats up. Replacement is a Steyr model. I can see H&K being in trouble if the G36 is fully dropped.

View Quote

Replacement has not been decided!

The German government has started the process to look for a new rifle, SIG Sauer, Rheinmetall and Steyr, Heckler and Koch and others have shown interest but so far the German military hasn't even completely decided if they want 5.56 or 7.62 Nato. It is planned that the new rifle should be introduced late in 2020.

Successor to the G36

Posted: 8/16/2017 2:33:34 AM EDT

[#43]

This might also help to brighten H&K's future up.

Marine Corps requests 50,000 more M27 Infantry Automatic Rifles

Posted: 8/24/2017 9:33:16 AM EDT

[#44]

bankrupt? yes. 100% at some point

out of business? no. brand is too valuable.

once the 'i wanna be in the gun business' investors from the last few years lick their wounds and exit, hopefully more biz people that love the product will get involved. it's not just hk. lots of brands we know are about to experience this.

Posted: 9/2/2017 1:03:47 PM EDT

[#45]

My understanding is that the German Government is a major stakeholder in HK. I suspect they will be bailed out by the German taxpayer if necessary.

Posted: 9/4/2017 2:23:09 AM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
My understanding is that the German Government is a major stakeholder in HK. I suspect they will be bailed out by the German taxpayer if necessary.

View Quote

Definitely wrong! The German government owns exactly 0% of H&K. It is owned by three private investors, Andreas Heeschen 51, %, Keith Halsey 40 %, and Alfred Schefenacker owns 9 %. All this is public info. In 2015 Heeschen infused €60m ($71m) of his personal money into H&K and became the CEO - and there is plenty of more where that came from

.

German Wikipedia Heckler & Koch

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is H&K in danger of going bankrupt?

Handguns » Handgun Discussions

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us