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I have 11,000 rounds of 9MM. Most of it bought for $0.18-$0.20. I'll be OK. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A 40 should be in everyone's arsenal for logistical purposes. That would be my only reason. As others have mentioned several times, 40 was the last thing left on shelves in the last panic. I have 11,000 rounds of 9MM. Most of it bought for $0.18-$0.20. I'll be OK. At my current rate, I would be through that in 9 months. |
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At my current rate, I would be through that in 9 months. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A 40 should be in everyone's arsenal for logistical purposes. That would be my only reason. As others have mentioned several times, 40 was the last thing left on shelves in the last panic. I have 11,000 rounds of 9MM. Most of it bought for $0.18-$0.20. I'll be OK. At my current rate, I would be through that in 9 months. It's not about what you have stashed, it's about what you can resupply. |
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It's not about what you have stashed, it's about what you can resupply. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A 40 should be in everyone's arsenal for logistical purposes. That would be my only reason. As others have mentioned several times, 40 was the last thing left on shelves in the last panic. I have 11,000 rounds of 9MM. Most of it bought for $0.18-$0.20. I'll be OK. At my current rate, I would be through that in 9 months. It's not about what you have stashed, it's about what you can resupply. I built my stash in 2005. I resupply it regularly. If the situation gets bad enough, ill cut my consumption rate. |
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Quoted: Right now the supply of guns chambered in .40 seems to be exceeding demand and driving the price down. Also you're probably seeing a lot of LEO trade-ins which are typically less expensive because of the perception that they are more used than your typical used gun. I really like .40. I'm one of those idiots that you hear about in GD that thinks a little extra bullet weight at the same speed makes a bigger difference on the receiving end than the giving end. View Quote |
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The new 9>40 argument is based on premium ammo where according to some 9=40=45. I wonder how that bears up with the cost of premium ammo. Are you stashing the good stuff or cheaper ball? If so, things aren't equal anymore and the larger calibers rule.
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The new 9>40 argument is based on premium ammo where according to some 9=40=45. I wonder how that bears up with the cost of premium ammo. Are you stashing the good stuff or cheaper ball? If so, things aren't equal anymore and the larger calibers rule. View Quote Even the difference between 9mm ball and .45 is laughably small. Id still prefer a 9mm if stuck with ball |
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As a reloader who loves his 10mm, the .40 was a natural companion, seeing as how I can use common bullets and powders.
I carry a CZ 75B in .40. Its in the shop right now getting a retro spur hammer and a trigger job. |
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I shoot a lot of USPSA Limited, so I always have plenty of brass and bullets around for it. It only makes sense to have a few regular pistols on hand. I load my Limited ammo a bit longer than most regular .40s will take, but it's easy to knock a grain off the powder charge and seat the bullet a bit deeper whenever I feel like doing a run of "regular" .40 ammo.
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I remember my dad always telling me that 40 was the best round ever made. As a new shooter going to gun stores and being told how sissy the 9mm was and too big the 45 was. After owning and shooting many 40s. HK, FN, walther, glock, m&p, Springfield and shield. I only enjoyed the HK and xd. I've sold all my 40 handguns. For me I shoot 9mm and 45. It makes it easier when it comes to buying ammo. Plus the recoil isn't harsh, its just very different. For me, I'll never own another 40. But everybody has their own personal preferences. So YMMV
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I like shooting .40 at my Monday night bowling pin shoots. You give up some speed when compared to 9mm, but a bad hit is more forgiving with the .40.
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I like shooting .40 at my Monday night bowling pin shoots. You give up some speed when compared to 9mm, but a bad hit is more forgiving with the .40. View Quote I've won a couple bowling pin matches with 40s. Load it up up to major and it has a better combination of capacity and power than 9 and 45. |
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I remember my dad always telling me that 40 was the best round ever made. As a new shooter going to gun stores and being told how sissy the 9mm was and too big the 45 was. After owning and shooting many 40s. HK, FN, walther, glock, m&p, Springfield and shield. I only enjoyed the HK and xd. I've sold all my 40 handguns. For me I shoot 9mm and 45. It makes it easier when it comes to buying ammo. Plus the recoil isn't harsh, its just very different. For me, I'll never own another 40. But everybody has their own personal preferences. So YMMV View Quote The .40 is my least favorite of the "Big 3" automatic pistol cartridges. When I was new to shooting I thought it sounded like the perfect cartridge. I really wanted a Glock 22 as my first handgun but I was mostly broke and I ended up with a Ruger P91DC as my first handgun. I thought it was a terrible pistol at the time and I ended up trading it on some 9mm pistol, not a Ruger, maybe a Beretta 92FS, but it is hard to remember now. I own a S&W M&P40 Compact now which is my only gun in the caliber. I actually enjoy it, but I still prefer. 45 ACP and 9x19 over it. I mostly have the 40C for logistical purposes. I am considering getting a. 40 Shield also, they are dirt cheap and having a second. 40 doesn't seem like a terrible idea. |
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People don't want .40 guns because the ammo is a couple bucks more expensive per box, the recoil hurts their delicate wrists, and you lose a couple of rounds capacity. View Quote And most importantly it's shot placement when it comes to pistols in 40 45 and 9. So why limit the number of rounds u can have in the mag or spend more for ammo The 40 cal hype is over for most people except those that still own them and get offended when u point out the above. |
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The only advantage to a 40 is that u can get a 9mm barrel for it and shoot both calibers
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And most importantly it's shot placement when it comes to pistols in 40 45 and 9. So why limit the number of rounds u can have in the mag or spend more for ammo The 40 cal hype is over for most people except those that still own them and get offended when u point out the above. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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People don't want .40 guns because the ammo is a couple bucks more expensive per box, the recoil hurts their delicate wrists, and you lose a couple of rounds capacity. And most importantly it's shot placement when it comes to pistols in 40 45 and 9. So why limit the number of rounds u can have in the mag or spend more for ammo The 40 cal hype is over for most people except those that still own them and get offended when u point out the above. This. I can't wait for 40 to die out. Most 40 lovers I've met, not all, but most, are inexperienced in the gun world. First gun is a 40, only buys 40 because they've never tried anything else. Shot placement and capacity are crucial, that's why my 9mm goes with me everywhere. ETA: I see the use of them in competitions and if people genuinely like the round. But the hype over 40 is pretty much over |
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I shoot a lot of USPSA Limited, so I always have plenty of brass and bullets around for it. It only makes sense to have a few regular pistols on hand. I load my Limited ammo a bit longer than most regular .40s will take, but it's easy to knock a grain off the powder charge and seat the bullet a bit deeper whenever I feel like doing a run of "regular" .40 ammo. View Quote +1000 Limited division is where the fun's at |
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I love my M&P .40s, I've never felt like the recoil was any worse than my 9mms. OP asked about the 229 in .40, I used to carry one and loved it, they are great guns. The ammo availability is a nice bonus too
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I don't shoot that much anymore but recently got a few kkm 9mm conversion barrels for my m&p 40s. I put myself on the timer for 10 yard bill drills (6 shots as fast as possible, 8" idpa a zone). After a dozen in both 9 and 40 with the exact same gun aside from barrel and magazine, I was 10% faster and 10% more accurate with the 9mm. I was slightly less likely to pull those 5th and 6th shots out of the a zone with the 9, but shooting the 9 didn't turn me into Jerry miculek. Sure, some of my better bill drills with the .40 were better than my mediocre 9s and vice versa. Based on my research, .40 does expand and penetrate about 10% better than 9mm too, so it's a tradeoff that I'm willing to take and will probably stick with .40 for carry. Used p9hst2 and p40hst1 for the comparison ammo.
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Questions for those running 9mm+P+ who bash the .40 "snappy recoil" and "slower double taps". Isn't this defeating the purpose of a lighter firing pistlol when it comes to using the same size pistol, example being Glock 19/23 ? Seems to me you are making your 9mm hotter than some 40's with this practice. Just saying.......................
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Questions for those running 9mm+P+ who bash the .40 "snappy recoil" and "slower double taps". Isn't this kind of a double standard when it comes to using the same size pistol, example being Glock 19/23 ? Seems to me you are making your 9mm hotter than some 40's with this practice. Just saying....................... View Quote When I run the math through the online calculators the difference still comes out to be about 15% of felt recoil. |
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When I run the math through the online calculators the difference still comes out to be about 15% of felt recoil. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Questions for those running 9mm+P+ who bash the .40 "snappy recoil" and "slower double taps". Isn't this kind of a double standard when it comes to using the same size pistol, example being Glock 19/23 ? Seems to me you are making your 9mm hotter than some 40's with this practice. Just saying....................... When I run the math through the online calculators the difference still comes out to be about 15% of felt recoil. I edited my OP a little while you were responding. Thanks for the info. I have fired +P+ through my 19 and to be honest didn't feel much difference versus my 23 with 180 grain that I carry. When I do carry my 19 I run standard pressure 124 HST and run 180 HST through the 23. Maybe after all these years of shooting I just don't pay attention to recoil much, shoot them both pretty much the same. Now if I dig out and blow the dust off my 629 Smith that's another story ! |
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I edited my OP a little while you were responding. Thanks for the info. I have fired +P+ through my 19 and to be honest didn't feel much difference versus my 23 with 180 grain that I carry. When I do carry my 19 I run standard pressure 124 HST and run 180 HST through the 23. Maybe after all these years of shooting I just don't pay attention to recoil much, shoot them both pretty much the same. Now if I dig out and blow the dust off my 629 Smith that's another story ! View Quote I just bought 5,000 rounds of 147 grain FMJs at 980 FPS. I figure I will carry that. I used to carry 115 grain Winchester White Box from WalMart. |
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I just bought 5,000 rounds of 147 grain FMJs at 980 FPS. I figure I will carry that. I used to carry 115 grain Winchester White Box from WalMart. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I edited my OP a little while you were responding. Thanks for the info. I have fired +P+ through my 19 and to be honest didn't feel much difference versus my 23 with 180 grain that I carry. When I do carry my 19 I run standard pressure 124 HST and run 180 HST through the 23. Maybe after all these years of shooting I just don't pay attention to recoil much, shoot them both pretty much the same. Now if I dig out and blow the dust off my 629 Smith that's another story ! I just bought 5,000 rounds of 147 grain FMJs at 980 FPS. I figure I will carry that. I used to carry 115 grain Winchester White Box from WalMart. AE? I like those for 9mm woods carry |
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Never had any interest, decided too many high quality 40 pistols out there at bargain prices
I now like the 40. |
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.40 is my favorite handgun caliber these days. It's not "tacticool" anymore so it's very available, and I expect it to remain easy to find if another ammo panic happens.
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And the falsehood that .40 S&W is a "high pressure round" when it operates at the same chamber pressure as 9mm and LESS pressure than 9mm +P. And that the laws of physics, in particular, the law of momentum, don't apply when comparing 9mm and .40 S&W. And disregarding that the FBI went to 9mm due to training and quailification issues because of girlie agents with small, weak hands, rather than any deficiency displayed by the cartridge itself. And "the fact" that ".40 S&W beats guns to death" although that only applied to pistols which were merely 9mm guns converted to .40, rather than those designed from the ground up for .40 S&W. And that 16 rounds of .40 in the gun isn't enough, whereas 8 rounds of .45 ACP is plenty. And that .40 is short and weak because "it's too snappy and has too much recoil". And..........ad nausium. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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People don't want .40 guns because the ammo is a couple bucks more expensive per box, the recoil hurts their delicate wrists, and you lose a couple of rounds capacity. And the FBI switched back to 9mm so they want to follow.... Bunch of pansies! I have both but carry .40. I will continue to carry .40 until they stop making it. Just about every .40 thread that comes up has people complaining about the "sharp recoil." And the falsehood that .40 S&W is a "high pressure round" when it operates at the same chamber pressure as 9mm and LESS pressure than 9mm +P. And that the laws of physics, in particular, the law of momentum, don't apply when comparing 9mm and .40 S&W. And disregarding that the FBI went to 9mm due to training and quailification issues because of girlie agents with small, weak hands, rather than any deficiency displayed by the cartridge itself. And "the fact" that ".40 S&W beats guns to death" although that only applied to pistols which were merely 9mm guns converted to .40, rather than those designed from the ground up for .40 S&W. And that 16 rounds of .40 in the gun isn't enough, whereas 8 rounds of .45 ACP is plenty. And that .40 is short and weak because "it's too snappy and has too much recoil". And..........ad nausium. Hahaha! Perfect synopsis AF! OP, I carried the .40 for 10 years, every day in a G27, then in a M&P40c. I like the .40's performance thru auto glass and auto doors. I worked in a very nasty area in Atlanta and had the real possibility of having to shoot thru my own auto glass and into a perp. One winter evening a crack monkey came out of the shadows while at a red light and violently pulled the locked door handle on my Jeep. I decided it was easier to let the clutch out and roll thru the intersection (late evening) rather than sit there and plug it with half a magazine of Ranger-B's, and all that would ensue after that. The .40 would be a great application for that kind of a shooting though because that is what it was designed to do; plug strait thru a barrier with little deflection. Lots of .40 haters look past that point just like the rest of what America First stated. I like 9mm and .45acp equally as much. The .40 certainly has it's place and proper application though and will always have a home in my carry rotation. YMMV... |
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The new 9>40 argument is based on premium ammo where according to some 9=40=45. I wonder how that bears up with the cost of premium ammo. Are you stashing the good stuff or cheaper ball? If so, things aren't equal anymore and the larger calibers rule. View Quote All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to ruin the rest of your life. Unless a particular caliber/bullet can alter the outcome of the encounter in your favor by increasing the rate of bleedout to the point where the BG collapses before inflicting harm (doubtful when the aforementioned hit to the heart can leave the BG active for 10+ seconds), arguing which caliber/bullet is best is a moot point (doesn't affect the outcome of the encounter if the BG expires in the ambulance from bullet 'X' instead of in the ER from bullet 'Y'). I seriously doubt a BG could tell the difference if hit w/any quality 9mm/.40/.45 load. Tomac |
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All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to ruin the rest of your life. Unless a particular caliber/bullet can alter the outcome of the encounter in your favor by increasing the rate of bleedout to the point where the BG collapses before inflicting harm (doubtful when the aforementioned hit to the heart can leave the BG active for 10+ seconds), arguing which caliber/bullet is best is a moot point (doesn't affect the outcome of the encounter if the BG expires in the ambulance from bullet 'X' instead of in the ER from bullet 'Y'). I seriously doubt a BG could tell the difference if hit w/any quality 9mm/.40/.45 load. Tomac View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The new 9>40 argument is based on premium ammo where according to some 9=40=45. I wonder how that bears up with the cost of premium ammo. Are you stashing the good stuff or cheaper ball? If so, things aren't equal anymore and the larger calibers rule. All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to ruin the rest of your life. Unless a particular caliber/bullet can alter the outcome of the encounter in your favor by increasing the rate of bleedout to the point where the BG collapses before inflicting harm (doubtful when the aforementioned hit to the heart can leave the BG active for 10+ seconds), arguing which caliber/bullet is best is a moot point (doesn't affect the outcome of the encounter if the BG expires in the ambulance from bullet 'X' instead of in the ER from bullet 'Y'). I seriously doubt a BG could tell the difference if hit w/any quality 9mm/.40/.45 load. Tomac Hit him in the pelvis and he'll know. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The new 9>40 argument is based on premium ammo where according to some 9=40=45. I wonder how that bears up with the cost of premium ammo. Are you stashing the good stuff or cheaper ball? If so, things aren't equal anymore and the larger calibers rule. All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to ruin the rest of your life. Unless a particular caliber/bullet can alter the outcome of the encounter in your favor by increasing the rate of bleedout to the point where the BG collapses before inflicting harm (doubtful when the aforementioned hit to the heart can leave the BG active for 10+ seconds), arguing which caliber/bullet is best is a moot point (doesn't affect the outcome of the encounter if the BG expires in the ambulance from bullet 'X' instead of in the ER from bullet 'Y'). I seriously doubt a BG could tell the difference if hit w/any quality 9mm/.40/.45 load. Tomac Hit him in the pelvis and he'll know. |
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All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to ruin the rest of your life. Unless a particular caliber/bullet can alter the outcome of the encounter in your favor by increasing the rate of bleedout to the point where the BG collapses before inflicting harm (doubtful when the aforementioned hit to the heart can leave the BG active for 10+ seconds), arguing which caliber/bullet is best is a moot point (doesn't affect the outcome of the encounter if the BG expires in the ambulance from bullet 'X' instead of in the ER from bullet 'Y'). I seriously doubt a BG could tell the difference if hit w/any quality 9mm/.40/.45 load. Tomac View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The new 9>40 argument is based on premium ammo where according to some 9=40=45. I wonder how that bears up with the cost of premium ammo. Are you stashing the good stuff or cheaper ball? If so, things aren't equal anymore and the larger calibers rule. All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to ruin the rest of your life. Unless a particular caliber/bullet can alter the outcome of the encounter in your favor by increasing the rate of bleedout to the point where the BG collapses before inflicting harm (doubtful when the aforementioned hit to the heart can leave the BG active for 10+ seconds), arguing which caliber/bullet is best is a moot point (doesn't affect the outcome of the encounter if the BG expires in the ambulance from bullet 'X' instead of in the ER from bullet 'Y'). I seriously doubt a BG could tell the difference if hit w/any quality 9mm/.40/.45 load. Tomac I agree. I've seen a couple that ran 50+ yards after being shot through the heart. One was with a .357 Magnum and another with a .38 Special +P. I guess where I'm having trouble with this new fad is that it is relies on the premium quality ammunition. I carry only the best but when that runs out and we're down to practice ammo or reloads, it's not equal. I can't afford to stockpile the good stuff and I doubt there's many that can. I have enough of the high quality ammo to fill my magazines and a little extra but that's it. But the other hand, we are talking about preps for a situation most will never encounter and if you do, it's over quick with only 2-3 rounds fired on average. |
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s.
Also - if you don't already have a stash of your chosen calibers and your resupply plan is Walmart ... |
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I shot my uncle's .40 cal H&K P2000 and P2000SK the border patrol issued to him. It was easy enough for me to shoot well - even with the LEM double action only triggers - I just prefer my 9mm handguns. He likes .40 and does well with it so rock on. Plus the government supplies some of his ammo...
In a nutshell - 9mm does everything I need it to do for less money than .40 Lol Fooboy...can't disagree with you there. |
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. Also - if you don't already have a stash of your chosen calibers and your resupply plan is Walmart ... View Quote Well, ballistically the .40 equals the .38-40 so maybe stuck in the 1890s Ive got a pretty good stash of 9 as its my primary. Over 10k at this point but I like knowing I have some .40 in case I cant resupply 9s. $18 per box of hsts and $14 for rangers are a nice benefit of the .40 as well. |
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Well, ballistically the .40 equals the .38-40 so maybe stuck in the 1890s Ive got a pretty good stash of 9 as its my primary. Over 10k at this point but I like knowing I have some .40 in case I cant resupply 9s. $18 per box of hsts and $14 for rangers are a nice benefit of the .40 as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. Also - if you don't already have a stash of your chosen calibers and your resupply plan is Walmart ... Well, ballistically the .40 equals the .38-40 so maybe stuck in the 1890s Ive got a pretty good stash of 9 as its my primary. Over 10k at this point but I like knowing I have some .40 in case I cant resupply 9s. $18 per box of hsts and $14 for rangers are a nice benefit of the .40 as well. Can I ask where you're getting the HST for $18? My go to lately is TargetSportsUSA and it's $25 for the 180gr HST.... |
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Quoted: 40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. View Quote I keep hearing people say this, but never accompanied by any kind of reasonable explanation. What exactly changed about the 40 in the past 20 years to make it worse than it was at introduction? Don't tell me how modern bullets made the 9 better. I'm sure they did, but same design propagated to 40 and 45. I also understand wanting more capacity for those who can't aim, and less recoil for the limp-waisted crowd. But those aren't changes to the 40. How did the 40 get worse, for those of us "whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s."? |
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Can I ask where you're getting the HST for $18? My go to lately is TargetSportsUSA and it's $25 for the 180gr HST.... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. Also - if you don't already have a stash of your chosen calibers and your resupply plan is Walmart ... Well, ballistically the .40 equals the .38-40 so maybe stuck in the 1890s Ive got a pretty good stash of 9 as its my primary. Over 10k at this point but I like knowing I have some .40 in case I cant resupply 9s. $18 per box of hsts and $14 for rangers are a nice benefit of the .40 as well. Can I ask where you're getting the HST for $18? My go to lately is TargetSportsUSA and it's $25 for the 180gr HST.... massammo they're out now but they had it in stock for months. I must of posted a link to it 3-4 times in other threads and started a topic in GD about it |
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Its the internet, people have strong opionons. I have had many guns, in all three of the common calibers and honestly don't notice a whole lot of difference between any of them. I am currently carrying a Glock 23 and shoot it just has well as the 19 or 17
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. Also - if you don't already have a stash of your chosen calibers and your resupply plan is Walmart ... View Quote I disagree with your first sentence, and hear that argument a lot about the 40 cal. While the gap may have narrowed between the two, those same bullet advances that make the 9mm so great now (and I agree that it is) were also applied to the 40. |
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I keep hearing people say this, but never accompanied by any kind of reasonable explanation. What exactly changed about the 40 in the past 20 years to make it worse than it was at introduction? Don't tell me how modern bullets made the 9 better. I'm sure they did, but same design propagated to 40 and 45. I also understand wanting more capacity for those who can't aim, and less recoil for the limp-waisted crowd. But those aren't changes to the 40. How did the 40 get worse, for those of us "whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s."? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. I keep hearing people say this, but never accompanied by any kind of reasonable explanation. What exactly changed about the 40 in the past 20 years to make it worse than it was at introduction? Don't tell me how modern bullets made the 9 better. I'm sure they did, but same design propagated to 40 and 45. I also understand wanting more capacity for those who can't aim, and less recoil for the limp-waisted crowd. But those aren't changes to the 40. How did the 40 get worse, for those of us "whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s."? Do you seriously not know this? Given advancements in modern hollow point design - its known that all major service calibers (.38 / 9mm / 40 / 45) perform the same at the end of the day. Performance being equal, 9mm offers higher capacity and lower recoil. Lower recoil means quicker splits and less wear and tear on the gun. All the above is why many agencies and even the FBI are going back to 9mm. Is 40 bad? No. You're just not getting anything extra ... except more recoil and cost ... and lower capacity. You can tell .40 guys as they talk a lot about the following: Ft Lbs, energy dump, one shot stop, etc etc. Summary of FBI findings on this from 2014. Click To View Spoiler FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA
Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident Handgun stopping power is simply a myth The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”) LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings) 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons) The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons) There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers Justification for Law Enforcement Partners Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago. Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential. One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option. Understanding Handgun Caliber Terminal Ballistic Realities Many so-called “studies” have been performed and many analyses of statistical data have been undertaken regarding this issue. Studies simply involving shooting deaths are irrelevant since the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated. “The concept of immediate incapacitation is the only goal of any law enforcement shooting and is the underlying rationale for decisions regarding weapons, ammunition, calibers and training.”1 Studies of “stopping power” are irrelevant because no one has ever been able to define how much power, force, or kinetic energy, in and of itself, is required to effectively stop a violent and determined adversary quickly, and even the largest of handgun calibers are not capable of delivering such force. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so-called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement. In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities. Medical Realities Shots to the Central Nervous System (CNS) at the level of the cervical spine (neck) or above, are the only means to reliably cause immediate incapacitation. In this case, any of the calibers commonly used in law enforcement, regardless of expansion, would suffice for obvious reasons. Other than shots to the CNS, the most reliable means for affecting rapid incapacitation is by placing shots to large vital organs thus causing rapid blood loss. Simply stated, shot placement is the most critical component to achieving either method of incapacitation. Wounding factors between rifle and handgun projectiles differ greatly due to the dramatic differences in velocity, which will be discussed in more detail herein. The wounding factors, in order of importance, are as follows: A. Penetration: A projectile must penetrate deeply enough into the body to reach the large vital organs, namely heart, lungs, aorta, vena cava and to a lesser extent liver and spleen, in order to cause rapid blood loss. It has long been established by expert medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that this equates to a range of penetration of 12-18 inches, depending on the size of the individual and the angle of the bullet path (e.g., through arm, shoulder, etc.). With modern properly designed, expanding handgun bullets, this objective is realized, albeit more consistently with some law enforcement projectiles than others. 1 Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness: Firearms Training Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, 1989. B. Permanent Cavity: The extent to which a projectile expands determines the diameter of the permanent cavity which, simply put, is that tissue which is in direct contact with the projectile and is therefore destroyed. Coupled with the distance of the path of the projectile (penetration), the total permanent cavity is realized. Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles. C. Temporary Cavity: The temporary cavity is caused by tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity. If the temporary cavity is produced rapidly enough in elastic tissues, the tensile strength of the tissue can be exceeded resulting in tearing of the tissue. This effect is seen with very high velocity projectiles such as in rifle calibers, but is not seen with handgun calibers. For the temporary cavity of most handgun projectiles to have an effect on wounding, the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps. At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect; therefore any difference in temporary cavity noted between handgun calibers is irrelevant. “In order to cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly.”2 2 DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, New York, NY, 1987, page 42. D. Fragmentation: Fragmentation can be defined as “projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity”3. Fragmentation does not reliably occur in soft tissue handgun wounds due to the low velocities of handgun bullets. When fragmentation does occur, fragments are usually found within one centimeter (.39”) of the permanent cavity.4 Due to the fact that most modern premium law enforcement ammunition now commonly uses bonded projectiles (copper jacket bonded to lead core), the likelihood of fragmentation is very low. For these reasons, wounding effects secondary to any handgun caliber bullet fragmentation are considered inconsequential. 3 Fackler, M.L., Malinowski, J.A.: “The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components”, Journal of Trauma 25: 522-529, 1958. 4 Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness: Firearms Training Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, 1989. Psychology Any discussion of stopping armed adversaries with a handgun has to include the psychological state of the adversary. Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso.5 First and foremost, the psychological effects of being shot can never be counted on to stop an individual from continuing conscious voluntary action. Those who do stop commonly do so because they decide to, not because they have to. The effects of pain are often delayed due to survival patterns secondary to “fight or flight” reactions within the body, drug/alcohol influences and in the case of extreme anger or aggression, pain can simply be ignored. Those subjects who decide to stop immediately after being shot in the torso do so commonly because they know they have been shot and are afraid of injury or death, regardless of caliber, velocity, or bullet design. It should also be noted that psychological factors can be a leading cause of incapacitation failures and as such, proper shot placement, adequate penetration, and multiple shots on target cannot be over emphasized. 5 Ibid. Tactical Realities Shot placement is paramount and law enforcement officers on average strike an adversary with only 20 – 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Given the reality that shot placement is paramount (and difficult to achieve given the myriad of variables present in a deadly force encounter) in obtaining effective incapacitation, the caliber used must maximize the likelihood of hitting vital organs. Typical law enforcement shootings result in only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary. This requires that any projectile which strikes the torso has as high a probability as possible of penetrating deeply enough to disrupt a vital organ. The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters. CONCLUSION While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance. Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile. Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.” |
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I like 40....I carry a G23, please keep trading in your 40's as I like them cheap!!!
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Sigh, who cares? Shoot what works best for you. Just ask yourself this question when picking a caliber from any of the mainstream auto loading options, what does caliber x do that caliber y doesn't? When you take away capacity concerns the answer is nothing.
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I would like to thank the FBI for getting all this started once again. The pistol caliber war will not be one by anyone ! The answer has been stated several times, let me remind everyone of it.
PRACTICE and SHOT PLACEMENT with whatever you carry !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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massammo they're out now but they had it in stock for months. I must of posted a link to it 3-4 times in other threads and started a topic in GD about it View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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40 is for people whose ballastic knowledge is stuck in the late 90s. Also - if you don't already have a stash of your chosen calibers and your resupply plan is Walmart ... Well, ballistically the .40 equals the .38-40 so maybe stuck in the 1890s Ive got a pretty good stash of 9 as its my primary. Over 10k at this point but I like knowing I have some .40 in case I cant resupply 9s. $18 per box of hsts and $14 for rangers are a nice benefit of the .40 as well. Can I ask where you're getting the HST for $18? My go to lately is TargetSportsUSA and it's $25 for the 180gr HST.... massammo they're out now but they had it in stock for months. I must of posted a link to it 3-4 times in other threads and started a topic in GD about it Thanks man, I'll keep checking in on them..... |
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I don't have a .40 pistol yet but I like the idea of more energy than a 9mm and more mag capacity than a .45. I did recently get a SUB2000 carbine in '40 and I like the boost in velocity with the 16" barrel, 1175 fps rather than 1042 from a 4" barrel - that's with 180 gr. My SUB takes Glock mags so I'm definitely thinking about picking up a pistol to go with it.
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