BS.

 

Brandishing? Facepalm

If a situation calls for me to draw after all me best efforts to deescalate it than so be it. Drawing a gun is not good for trying to deescalate a conflict.

As to the .380. Obviously it can kill. I prefer something that stops better. If .380s penetrated as deep after bone, cloths etc then we'll talk.

I do love those beretta 84s

I would rather carry a tiny 380 to carry constantly  every day than have a glock 20 I won't carry in my car.

If you have a physical limitation than that is a valid reason.

Your .380 is not up to snuff. You need to OC a .454 Casull.

this is America, bigger is always better.
The .380 has worked well in Europe for many years. I have a Bodyguard and Glock 380 for pocket carry at work and they are great. I am a real estate agent and do not have a great way to hide something bigger. I also don't put myself in risky situations and have never been in a situation to draw. I feel that the 380 is adequate for my needs, sure there are bigger options but the trade off with size, weight and capacity works for me. I keep a glock 10mm in the car and a HK 45 in the bedroom. I pick the spacific piece for the situation.

What do you wear/whats your body type that limits your options so much?

Seems no one can grasp that it's better to carry a .380 than nothing at all.

In pure numbers:

Underwood Ammo .380 Xtreme Penetrator 90 grain:
Muzzle Velocity: 1200fps
Muzzle Energy: 288 ft lbs

Underwood Ammo .380 XTP JHP 90 grain:
Muzzle Velocity: 1025 fps
Muzzle Energy: 210 ft lbs

Federal HST 9mm 124 grain:
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 364 ft lbs

If you look up Shooting The Bull's Xtreme Penetrator review you'll see ballistics close to that of 9mm in gel and gel/denim tests. In a self-defense confrontation at close range, the perp, BG, asshole (whatever tickles your dickles to call them) is not going to know the difference between the .380's above and the HST below. Statistically per the link shared by another user further back in the chat, the .380 is killing more people than the 9mm.

I like 9mm, I carry a G26 when I want more capacity for where I'm going. However, I do not feel underarmed with my G42 and a reload or two at any time. If you're .380 is reliable and you reliably carry it every day, then that is the gun for you. Ammo choice is a bit more critical with the .380 than the 9mm, but both will do the job which is to deter and end a life threatening attack.

The other tired argument in this thread is that "the Police and FBI carry 9mm because it's the best man killer". That is plain wrong and completely misguided. The predominant round in LE is still the .40 and the FBI is going back to 9mm because it's cheaper to train with, carries less recoil and the same sized duty pistols can generally carry an extra 2 - 3 rounds over their .40 counterparts. At the end of the day, the FBI and most LE agencies make ammo/gun selections based on what's the best deal financially, thus the FBI going with the Glock "M" models vs. the better Sig P320.

Yes, I'm prepared for the Glocktards to come at me, but I am a Glocktard and own all Glocks other than one Beretta and I still think the 320 is a better gun.

At the end of the day, you'll find internet gun people claim they carry duty-sized pistols all day every day, but I'm pretty certain if you caught them in the wild and checked what they had them, it'd be a micro gun in their pocket or nothing at all. We're all commandos online aren't we?

They aren't making 7 ounce 9mms yet as far as I have heard. That's what my p3aT weighs.

I generally think of .380 as a 'weak' cartridge. I don't own one anymore, and I'll never buy another one. But, I'll never buy another ultra-compact micro small tiny gun.  I had a full sized .380 with a blowback action and flat out hated shooting it, and it wasn't any easier to carry than anything else.  
My small gun with a debatable caliber is a S&W airweight 5-shot with .38spl +p in it.  Is it pleasant to shoot? No, but oddly enough I find it 'better' to shoot than any of the other compact guns I've played with.

The reason I quoted that particular part of your post is because I am one of those internet gun people that carry a "duty-sized pistol" every day.  I'll echo what a lot of people in this thread have said and that's that I think everyone should carry what they're comfortable and effective with.  If that's a 6-round .380 then so be it.  But, I think it's important that if it IS a 6-round 380 that you be able to shoot it really well.
The reason I carry a Glock 19 or bigger  is because I shoot those guns well. Everything I've ever tried that's smaller than that I cannot shoot well. But that's me.

I don't like the stats about Underwood's .380 ammo because those pressures must be insane to get those velocities. And after all that 'boom' it's still a sub-standard performance for a pistol bullet.  I couldn't quickly find any reviews of what it's like shooting that round, but that's a factor for me.  If +p significantly slows how quickly I can do double and triple taps than I'll carry standard pressure in that particular firearm.

I dont know why you think that. Im at work concealling a beretta vertec and a spare mag. A good holster and belt and all I need is a tshirt to conceal

Not being a smartass, but no one can predict the future. And keep in mind that the risky situations usually find YOU, not the other way around.

I guess pocket pistols made "380 vs 9" the new "9 vs 45" argument.

I normally carry a 43 (8+1) or 19, BUT I don't feel bad carrying my 42 with 8+1 rounds.  I shoot the 42 a little better than the 43, but not as well as the 19.  
I doubt a bad guy will know the difference between 9 rounds out of the 42 or 43.  
--
As for the 320 being better than the 19M:  I love the 320s, but there are a lot of small parts in there, and we just haven't had many years to determine how long things will generally last. I'm already hearing people having to clean under their extractors and/or replace them due to extraction issues (I don't know if the extractors need a redesign or if it just happened with a few vocal people). I also think the FBI like that they already had a ton of holsters and parts that would still work. BUT I'm sure Glock didn't underbid SIG by much IF AT ALL. Have they published their testing results yet?
I want to get another P320 (I had to sell my compact), but I also have never owned a DA/SA, so I think I'll get a CZ p07 or PCR before going back to the P320.

I can never find any volunteers for a field test ........ Any one out there want to get shot with any caliber ?????????? what no takers. Yes .380 will kill a bad guy. Practice with it. A lot

[URL=http://]

While this thread is about the abilities of .380, I will say that at least the slide doesn't fall off the P320 haha. The rest of your point regarding holsters and weapons familiarity is totally valid.

I do! But only during deer season :)

I don't want to get shot with a super soaker filled with piss either

Yep; the old I don't want to get shot with it is not a useful response.



 

These threads are always good for some humor.
Really like my G42, as it's small.

Tried several types and weights of ammo.
I really like these:
Soon as time and opportunity allow, I will be trying these on hogs.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender/
Technical Information

Caliber: 380 ACP
Bullet Weight: 65 Grains
Bullet Style: Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense
Case Type: Ducta-Bright 7a Nickel Brass
Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
Muzzle Energy: 283 ft. lbs.
Penetration: 15 inches

And also like these:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-90-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point/

Technical Information
Caliber: 380 ACP
Bullet Weight: 90 Grains
Bullet Style: Hornady XTP Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Ducta-Bright 7a Nickel Plated Brass
Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
Muzzle Energy: 288 ft. lbs.

You put a couple of those through a shoulder and then through the vitals Ill be nore open to changing my mind.

I know a 9mm hsts, fp/fmj, and nato all easily penatrate the shoulder of 180lbs deer and continue through the vitals and can exit if it doesnt hit a rib or the offside shoulder. It will break the offside rib but get caught by the skin. All shots between 10-30 yards.

Complete penatration through grouse

I really didn't want another caliber to mess with but my daughter has tiny hands and didn't care for the 9's.
Woman that runs the lgs is petite, so I asked her what she thought about the 42 in her hands, she had one already.
I bought it and grew to like it, got about 750-1000rnds thru it, daughter was in from school and saw it...me...her, you can guess the rest.

If I was going to carry a .380 Id use buffaloebores load.

That looks interesting, been using Barnes bullets for years in several calibers.
Gonna check these out..Thanks

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=252

Try these

That's what I carry in my LCP.
Buffalo Bore 380 Auto +P Ammo  
100 gr. Hardcast F.N.
(1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.)
20" penetration

I would not volunteer to get shot with one.

That being said, why bother when 9mm subcompacts are just so damn close in size?  That right there is why I just stick with 9mm. Im also too poor to be stocked up on all kinds of different ammo for practice.

I probably carry my .380 3/4 of the time, .45 when I feel the threat level warrants.
It makes  basically  the same diameter hole as a 9mm, a .38, or .357. It penetrates enough. And a small gun that you actually carry is much better protection than one you leave at home.

Despite the proliferation of small 9mm guns I think there is still a place for the .380.  They either fit into "disappearing" guns like the LCP or guns like the P238 that are slightly bigger, but far easier to shoot quickly than equivalently sized 9mms.  In FMJ the .380 reliably penetrates beyond the required 12 inches, so it will reliably get deep enough, just not as big as a 9mm hollowpoint.  It is not as effective as a good 9mm hollowpoint, but would probably be as effective as a 9mm ball.  Not great, but not awful.

There is the technical question of 'does it cause enough blood loss fast enough to incapacitate and attacker?'.  The general answer from those who study and model such things is 'not quite'.

There is the practical question of what you can carry.  So.. when is a J frame smith too large?  Not often.

Then there is all those inputs with cliches, homespun wisdom, feelings, personal experiences, and sincere opinions.  Which you can safely ignore.  

How many rds of the BB have you run through yours? Been considering making the switch from Hornady XTP, but wondered how the feeding reliability is, and how much extra wear you may be seeing.

Because not all hands are created equal.
My daughter likes rimfire and 380, doesn't like recoil and has small hands.
She can shoot the shit out of the G42 and likes it, so no reason for me to push 9mm on her, she tried it many times and says nope.
She goes shooting with me and likes it, but she only shoots what she likes and is comfortable with, can't blame her for that.

While I have not used the BB load you reference, I have shot warm loads thru mine since day 1.
Got aprox 1000 rnds thru it, with 3-400 being +p self defense loads.

As with any 380 load, I would always check on feeding for sure, and it sucks when testing expensive defense ammo, a mag or two is not enough.
When testing something new I do this:

Buy just one box if possible for costs, unless shipping kills the deal.
Test for accuracy and feeding, if zero feed issues, and acceptable accuracy, then I will order more.
If pistol has performed fine with no issues and load has done 100-150 rounds, with zero issues then I will trust it (this is assuming this is a pistol with a min of 500rnds already thru it.
I will not carry any pistol that has not had 500-750 rnds thru it without any issues that I can't figure out, for some people that is a lifetime of shooting, for me it's just getting a new or used toy smooth and lapped in.

I sometimes carry this in .380.  There is not a good reason as I can carry other, more effective, firearms.  But it's a cool gun and I carry it sometimes.


If you choose an underpowered round for any reason that's fine.  Just don't try to rationalize it as it being something it's not or wish away theories surrounding what represents an incapacitating wound.  

What gets me is people choosing an underpowered round in a diminutive handgun and are suddenly surprised at the recoil and how hard it is to hit with it.  If you have a .380 I hope you're practicing your tail off with it because most are not easy to shoot.  And those (included my Walther PP) that are are completely obviated by small 9mm's.  Weird.

Pretty much every pistol round is under-powered, that's why they make rifles.

Any particular studies in mind?  What standards equate to acceptable performance?

The FBI?

Does .380 FMJ not meet these standards?

I did a bunch of research on it before committing to buying a Pico. Penetration on my favorite bullet designs in 9mm is pretty lacking when they're used in .380 and that made me uncomfortable. That being said, it's pretty much fine on the older Hydrashoks, so I got a bunch of those in .380 and called it a day.

Do I feel equally as protected with the .380s as I do with 9mms? No. Do I feel protected enough? Yes.

That being said, the Pico gets carried when my M9 would get left at home. And .380 definitely outguns the shit out of my pocket knife.

By that silly rationale pellet pistols are as good as a 45acp.

Savador and others:

Start here. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm  You can argue about Fackler and  Roberts all day but at least their material is published and reviewed and has held up over time.  

Overall, you're looking for a wound cavity that does enough damage for the victim to bleed out.  That's right.  They don't get knocked over, 'stopped', or otherwise short circuited.  Exceptions:  hit to the brain, spinal cord, or major bone.  The 12" penetration minimum has to do with things like the angle the bullet goes in at.  From there you consider penetration through clothing and barricades.  All of these are good indicators for why the .380 is inadequate.  Some perps no doubt stop because they realize they've been shot and would like to get to the ER as soon as possible but that's another story.  

As for .380 being better than a sharp pencil.. really?  That implies that you can't carry something more effective which simply isn't true.

And remember. A 100 grain fmj going the same speed as a 147 grain fmj (same caliber) will not penetrate as deep and may not have the energy to make it through heavier bones.

Exactly, glad you noticed how silly your underpowered statement is, cause you didn't cite one credible source for power levels and what the cutoff point is.
You made the underpower statement, so back it up with data


This is just another general statement, that is opinion only.

Whatever.  I posted a link to Roberts and Fackler stuff.  It's been available for 20 or 30 years and has not been supplanted by anything else.  You posted something about all handgun rounds being underpowered as if there were no difference between them.  I gave you a factual starting point based on published material that has stood up to years of open review and debate.  Since the available data shows the .380 to be inadequate, it would be on you to post something credible showing Roberts is wrong.  Credible as in published, reviewed, acknowledged.

As for a small blowback .380 being hard to shoot it could be calculated.  You can calculate free recoil (V = ( b*v + c*p ) / W) then apply that the relative grip area given a quite short moment of inertia.  You can then compare that other pistols of different weights, grip areas, and adjusting for differing recoil mechanisms.  Then you can consider sight radius and the more subjective sight visibility.  Don't need to.  I've shot them.  Small grip area with high recoil makes them hard to shoot.  If you claim they are not you are in disagreement with 95% of this forum.  100% of the smart ones.

And yea.. I made that number up.  But it's right.

Complete anecdotal YouTube and forum surfing "evidence" and pure opinion in this, so if that offends, look the other way :).

Would you take a .380 to war? No.
Would you want to get in a gun fight with a .380? No.
Would you want to get into any gun fight with a pistol? No.
Would you want to get into a gun fight period? No.

Are .380s easy to shoot? That's subjective, my G42 is very easy to shoot, the Sig P238 is very easy to shoot, the Ruger LCP is not easy to shoot.
Are .380's easy to carry? Again, subjective, but I'd argue in most situations, yes.
Can you carry a .380 on the belt? Yes.
Can you carry a .380 in your pocket? Some yes, some no.
Do you HAVE to pocket carry a .380? No.

Will .380 go through a windshield? Yes.
Will .380 go through my walls? Yes.
If I were involved in a home invasion and fired a round off through my wall, would it still have enough power to kill somebody on the other side? Yes.
Will a .380 break bones? Yes.
Will a .380 pierce a car door? Yes.
Will a .380 pass through a heavy down jacket in the dead of winter while hunting two-legged predators in the Alaskan wild? Yes.
Will a .380 kill a bear? Probably not, though I think there is some sort of legend of someone doing it, or with a .22LR or some crap like that.

Will a .380 kill a person attacking me? Yes.
Will a single .380 drop a man where he stands? Possibly, but probably not.
Will a full mag dump of .380 into a perp put him down? Possibly.
Will a .45acp stop a man in his tracks? Possibly.
Will 9mm stop a man in his tracks? Possibly.

Does .380 reliably expand? Depends on the round, do your research, but Hornady XTP rounds seem to expand fairly reliably.
Does .380 consistently meet the FBI standards for penetration? Depends on the round, the Underwood loading of the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator consistently meets the FBI benchmark
Is .380 FMJ better than JHP? Depends on the round.
Does every single 9mm on the market meet the FBI standards? No.

For shits, do I need to carry a Glock 19 to be safe? No.

Should I carry a .380? I can't answer that, I carry one and I also carry a 9mm depending on my attire, perceived threat level and whether or not I want to lug around a bigger gun. Don't let anyone on the internet tell you what to carry and what not to carry. Train with what you're comfortable with, carry what you're comfortable with. If you want to carry a full size 1911, or duty-sized Glock or the like, more power to you! Good for you. If you want to carry a pocket sized Ruger LCP, good for you! These discussions are ridiculous. is the point of all of this. No one is going to volunteer to be shot with a .380 to prove a point. No perp wants to get shot! Even on drugs, they aren't attacking you hoping you are going to shoot them! If you're travels take you through the hood and you may come up on several perps in a gang, you have bigger issues to solve than what caliber you brought to the table.

None of those are concrete facts and should not be taken as such. However they are based on anecdotal evidence and common sense.

I've never met anyone who desired to get shot, whether with .22, .32, .38, on up and through a .50.

While I agree they always become such, terminal ballistics science and theory is the real deal and we should try to understand it.

When I carry my Walther PP, I understand it's diminished capability versus my M&P 9C.  Maybe that makes me carry the 9c more often and if I were ever to need it, would be glad I did.

So.. that makes it OK to carry a .22?  Nobody wants to get shot with a pellet gun either but we don't carry those.

There are certainly psych advantages to just having a gun.  But if it comes to shooting, then terminal ballistics becomes a very important topic.

Keep in mind I am not trying to argue, just a friendly debate, so drop the whatever stuff, that's teenage girl stuff.
Regarding 20-30 year old data, it's just that... old ass data (my opinion)
Just a lil bit back in time, 9mm was considered by most to be inadequate, my how times have changed.

Hard to shoot.. I will admit most all of my 380 shooting has been with the Glock 42, I have about 800-1000rnds thru it and it is a very easy pistol to shoot, for me and a 93lb girl.
There may be others that are difficult but I think harder to shoot is a broad statement, and I'm not hearing the 95% speak up and back that claim?
Next time out I will re-do the Gunfighter challenge with my 42 instead of my 19 17 and see what my time differences are, there is an informal test for ya.
My times with the 19 17 are posted in that thread.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1897884_The_Official_Gunfighter_Challenge__1_5__5_Win_a_pair_of_PMAGs_.html

Edit..wrong pistol, G17 not 19..

I have three primary carry guns.  They are:

-S&W M&P Shield 9mm
-Ruger SP101 DAO .357 Magnum
-Glock 42 .380 ACP

Obviously the SP101 and Shield are more powerful but neither makes a very good pocket gun.  The Glock 42 fits in all my pants pockets, it is reliable, and easy to shoot well.  I'm not comfortable with guns like the LCP, but the 42 is more like a 3/4 size "real piztol".  Is it ideal?  No, but in situations where a belt holster isn’t feasible it does the trick.  Given my general threat level I'm comfortable enough when I carry the 42.

Aye, but given the choice I'll take the pellet gun