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Posted: 7/23/2016 9:16:35 PM EDT
[#1]
I admit I must have been drinking when I made that post. But at the end of it if you notice I mentioned obviously soft targets are totally different. I was making a bit of a joke about knock down power not being a "thing" it is "kind of" a thing, but not really in soft targets. Depending on what is acceptable for the person at the time. I think if a G30S or larger handgun is acceptable, go .45ACP it may not be much better, but bullet performance is still better, also there is more kinetic energy, and more of that energy gets transferred to the soft target. Now if you NEED a smaller handgun, by all means 9mm wins easily, only slightly less performance but with a smaller pistol you probably can have the same amount of ammo, also in any barrel length much smaller than the 30S (3.77") the .45ACP really starts to suffer. Still need a smaller handgun, 9mm Kurz / .380.
Tool for every job, everyone's carry needs and the reason they're carrying are different, pick accordingly, espcially since most handguns are weak. Well placed shots are easily worth several poorly placed shots (that still impact the target). |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 9:41:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I admit I must have been drinking when I made that post. But at the end of it if you notice I mentioned obviously soft targets are totally different. I was making a bit of a joke about knock down power not being a "thing" it is "kind of" a thing, but not really in soft targets. Depending on what is acceptable for the person at the time. I think if a G30S or larger handgun is acceptable, go .45ACP it may not be much better, but bullet performance is still better, also there is more kinetic energy, and more of that energy gets transferred to the soft target. Now if you NEED a smaller handgun, by all means 9mm wins easily, only slightly less performance but with a smaller pistol you probably can have the same amount of ammo, also in any barrel length much smaller than the 30S (3.77") the .45ACP really starts to suffer. Still need a smaller handgun, 9mm Kurz / .380. Tool for every job, everyone's carry needs and the reason they're carrying are different, pick accordingly, espcially since most handguns are weak. Well placed shots are easily worth several poorly placed shots (that still impact the target). It's not about the kinetic energy. Knockdown power doesn't matter with soft targets. It's about creating a wound channel without over penetrating. Modern 9mm expands damn well, gets you 12-18" of penetration, does well with barrier penetration, weighs less, holds more rounds, and costs less. 45 can do all that to but with disadvantages. Now if you are knocking down steel, yea knockdown power is a thing. |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 9:43:35 PM EDT
[#3]
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Well he didn't get in to 9 vs 45 but stated that the modern hollow points are good stuff. He doesn't like 380 and suggested FMJ or hornady xtp if you are going to carry it though. He said to stay away from underwood and Lehigh and to stick with the major brands that get contracts. Said an AR15 is the best defense weapon and that green tip is garbage. Said it was good back in the day for what it was designed for but nowadays with shorter barrels and barrier penetration it's not good. Doesn't like shotguns for a number of reasons but said #1 buck is the best. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was an interesting series of podcasts just in the past few days from Primary and Secondary. (if you don't subscribe yet do. Roland (Roland Glock) is always dropping real knowledge and weeding out the bs.) The guest on the podcast was some medical doctor trained to study ballistics for the U.S. Military and he was the sole rep for the Navy. He said all this ballistic gel test stuff on YouTube is BS because nobody knows how to make the gel the way the FBI does. Also said all this hydrostatic shock stuff is a bunch of crap too. It's a long series so you'll have to watch but lots of good info. How about a short summary in a sentence or two of the end results? Well he didn't get in to 9 vs 45 but stated that the modern hollow points are good stuff. He doesn't like 380 and suggested FMJ or hornady xtp if you are going to carry it though. He said to stay away from underwood and Lehigh and to stick with the major brands that get contracts. Said an AR15 is the best defense weapon and that green tip is garbage. Said it was good back in the day for what it was designed for but nowadays with shorter barrels and barrier penetration it's not good. Doesn't like shotguns for a number of reasons but said #1 buck is the best. Thanks! Good info. |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 10:06:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks! Good info. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was an interesting series of podcasts just in the past few days from Primary and Secondary. (if you don't subscribe yet do. Roland (Roland Glock) is always dropping real knowledge and weeding out the bs.) The guest on the podcast was some medical doctor trained to study ballistics for the U.S. Military and he was the sole rep for the Navy. He said all this ballistic gel test stuff on YouTube is BS because nobody knows how to make the gel the way the FBI does. Also said all this hydrostatic shock stuff is a bunch of crap too. It's a long series so you'll have to watch but lots of good info. How about a short summary in a sentence or two of the end results? Well he didn't get in to 9 vs 45 but stated that the modern hollow points are good stuff. He doesn't like 380 and suggested FMJ or hornady xtp if you are going to carry it though. He said to stay away from underwood and Lehigh and to stick with the major brands that get contracts. Said an AR15 is the best defense weapon and that green tip is garbage. Said it was good back in the day for what it was designed for but nowadays with shorter barrels and barrier penetration it's not good. Doesn't like shotguns for a number of reasons but said #1 buck is the best. Thanks! Good info. O and they also talked about different roles some too. For instance, in a house you want to be real careful about over penetration. But they have seen cases where a bad guy was peeking around a corner and the hollow point ammo wasn't penetrating through the wall. Another one the bad guy was hiding behind the couch and the ammo wouldn't penetrate. One PD who approved Glock 42s for off duty carry did a bunch of testing and found Speer FMJ to be the most reliable. In one shooting it penetrated a bad guys forearms and chest and took him out. |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 10:48:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was an interesting series of podcasts just in the past few days from Primary and Secondary. (if you don't subscribe yet do. Roland (Roland Glock) is always dropping real knowledge and weeding out the bs.) The guest on the podcast was some medical doctor trained to study ballistics for the U.S. Military and he was the sole rep for the Navy. He said all this ballistic gel test stuff on YouTube is BS because nobody knows how to make the gel the way the FBI does. Also said all this hydrostatic shock stuff is a bunch of crap too. It's a long series so you'll have to watch but lots of good info. That's DocGKR. 
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Posted: 7/23/2016 10:49:06 PM EDT
[#6]
lol
A simple search found a few departments still using Underwood. "No department uses those though, so stick to what departments issue." That last sentence is complete garbage. A few text messaging and a phone call found out that they're all using Underwood too. lol. I just knew there would be bad information being put out again. I'm done with this thread, too funny to see the usual suspects bringing in misleading information as per the standard SOP. |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 11:01:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's DocGKR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was an interesting series of podcasts just in the past few days from Primary and Secondary. (if you don't subscribe yet do. Roland (Roland Glock) is always dropping real knowledge and weeding out the bs.) The guest on the podcast was some medical doctor trained to study ballistics for the U.S. Military and he was the sole rep for the Navy. He said all this ballistic gel test stuff on YouTube is BS because nobody knows how to make the gel the way the FBI does. Also said all this hydrostatic shock stuff is a bunch of crap too. It's a long series so you'll have to watch but lots of good info. That's DocGKR. Yea didn't know his name but dude seems legit as hell. |
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Posted: 7/24/2016 7:45:46 AM EDT
[#8]
There is some good info and some bad info out there.
I have never tried to video or document my own shooting stuff, but I like trying different things. What some friends don't know about pistol rounds is kinda funny to me, even in this thread "knockdown power" was used several times and discussed, and yes 45>9 on steel plates. If ammo cost didn't matter, recoil was non existent, and ammo easy to find, I would carry 357 Sig for everything, but I like fast and small as much as I like big and slow. I have a totally informal test on messing around with different pistol loads and calibers, hog hunt with it. It's not scientific at all, but you can analyze shot placement, bullet condition, (assuming not a pass thru), and tissue damage. So watching a video or reading an article is fine, but go out and shoot (safely) stuff, and do some of your own informal testing. Hog shooting (pistol) has led me to the age old "shot placement" theory..my .02 Also..I am an Underwood ammo fan..my carry load is this: https://www.underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-124-grain-bonded-jacket-hollow-point-1/ |
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Posted: 7/24/2016 8:00:57 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yea didn't know his name but dude seems legit as hell. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: There was an interesting series of podcasts just in the past few days from Primary and Secondary. (if you don't subscribe yet do. Roland (Roland Glock) is always dropping real knowledge and weeding out the bs.) The guest on the podcast was some medical doctor trained to study ballistics for the U.S. Military and he was the sole rep for the Navy. He said all this ballistic gel test stuff on YouTube is BS because nobody knows how to make the gel the way the FBI does. Also said all this hydrostatic shock stuff is a bunch of crap too. It's a long series so you'll have to watch but lots of good info. That's DocGKR. Yea didn't know his name but dude seems legit as hell. |
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Posted: 7/25/2016 12:33:35 PM EDT
[#10]
I love both cartridges.
I started out a HUGE fan of the .45 and I still am a fan. BUT, a huge amount of engineering expertise has been expended on the 9mm platform over the past thirty years. There are more excellent 9s available now than any other chambering, IMO. And the cartridge itself has also benefited from engineering attention. For me, the bottom line is "firepower". A compact 9 like (for example) a Glock 26 gives its user 10 + one rounds of highly reliable firepower. Since I am a proponent of shot placement as being paramount, 10 + one is superior to 6 or 7 or even 8 every time; especially under stress. It WILL be difficult to put your shots where you want them. The more chances you have, the better. I love the .45, but I carry a 9.
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Posted: 7/26/2016 10:44:11 PM EDT
[#11]
skip the whole mess & go 357 magnum.
I live in s fla, almost any encounter here would involve me in a car or an assailant in a car . heavy fast 357 magnum bonded hollowpoints really go through car doors & windshields. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 1:54:05 AM EDT
[#12]
For all the "capacity advantage" of the 9mm, how many gunfights do we ever read of where that actually paid off for the CONUS civilian defender? Yes nice to have for that .00001% chance you find yourself in a multiple-hostile terrorist attack.
I've been drinking the 9mm Koolaid for a long time now but about to be limited to 10 rounds statewide has me wondering (like it was 1994 again) whether the difference in split times (which is all we have left) still trumps a bigger hole. Also I've got big hands and I've never been 100% confident that the Glock 19 (which on paper is the right answer for everything and I have multiple copies) is actually the gun that my hands can shoot most accurately. I have come to shoot them very well, but have hit a plateau where I'm not completely satisfied with my groups but can't make the mechanics work any better for me. So I'm trying another (bigger) gun in .45 that seems like I can get more of my support hand on, and which feels like I can control the trigger better. I've also improved quite a bit in my understanding of shooting technique and recoil management since the last time I used a .45 so I'm looking forward to seeing how that plays out. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 7:10:56 AM EDT
[#13]
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skip the whole mess & go 357 magnum. I live in s fla, almost any encounter here would involve me in a car or an assailant in a car . heavy fast 357 magnum bonded hollowpoints really go through car doors & windshields. And limit myself to 6 rounds? No thanks. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 9:03:49 AM EDT
[#14]
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All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop a determined BG is bleedout that shuts down the brain due to oxygen deprivation. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair. Bottom line is this: Go w/whichever caliber you shoot best. I prefer 9mm as the best combination of capacity, controllable recoil & terminal performance *for me*. Tomac Pretty much this. I have guns in 38Spl, 357Mag, 9, 40, and 45. There ain't no wonder bullet and the +p+ 9mm loads touted by everyone are just as tough on guns and recoil just as much as 40S&W. Caliber and equipment is the least of the concerns. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 12:22:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Ah... I love the old 9mm vs .45 debate. It closely resembles the other great debate on which beer is the best. Allow me to give you a reason to have both. The US military owns both. In the post apocalyptic zombie world, you will always want to have a least one handgun in calibers which have plentiful ammunition. You may also consider doing the same with rifles... Now back to the basement to finish lining the walls..
 
In all sincerity, if you can afford it, keep or get both.. I do own both calibers and find that shooting each is both fun and enjoyable. I have even begun to enjoy the hunt for great bargains on ammo for both. I've been watching the ammo sales and figuring prices per round, using coupons, and web sites such as active junky that provide a percentage back and although .45 is always a little more money per round, there is just something about it that makes it worth while. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 12:58:03 PM EDT
[#16]
As a Gunsite instructor commented in class " You cannot miss fast enough to win."
At the end of your very bad day (you had to use your gun) only hits really count. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 1:29:58 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 9/17/2016 2:03:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Anything between 9 and 45 in a platform you can shoot comfortably will do. Pick a good reliable duty grade round.
Not sure what else needs to be said. |
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Posted: 9/18/2016 2:40:33 PM EDT
[#19]
I love the .45. I carry a high cap 9mm.
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Posted: 9/18/2016 6:38:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Carry a pistol caliber combo that allows you to empty a full mag at speed at ten yards into an area the size of a playing card consistently. Does not matter if it is a 22 or 45. Shot placement at speed is what gets the job done
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Posted: 9/19/2016 9:05:08 AM EDT
[#21]
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Whatever you like that you shoot well and are willing to carry. No point in over thinking it. I don't think the VP9 or P30 are appreciably smaller than an HK45. This is what I came to say. OP thinks the HK45 is too big so wants an HK9mm that's just as big. He wants a P2000 or a P2000sk, maybe a Walther PPS or a Glock 43. I can't believe 9 vs 45 threads still happen. Pick a gun you like and will carry. Pick it in the caliber that it functions best. Load it with HSTs. Go in peace. |
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Posted: 9/19/2016 10:14:52 AM EDT
[#22]
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There are some decent HP rounds these days for .380. Before that, you were better off with FMJ, since it would at least go deep enough to do the job, per FBI standards at least. Here is a nice test of multiple .380 rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My thing about this is .357 sig wins. I don't own one nor have I shot one is probably why. But the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun. Then what makes you feel the safest is the caliber you should go for. All aside, my favorite comparison about this "modern 9mm ammo" is a 9mm might not mushroom and get bigger in size, but a .45 won't get any smaller. Random thought of mine: If modern 9mm is as good as .40 or .45 then what is modern .380 in relation to the old stuff? Is a .380 today equal to a 9mm 20 years ago? If so I might want Glock to start making the 25 in the states. There are some decent HP rounds these days for .380. Before that, you were better off with FMJ, since it would at least go deep enough to do the job, per FBI standards at least. Here is a nice test of multiple .380 rounds. FMJ 380 will punch through a deer so I assume that if I miss a bone that I will have two holes to let the blood out faster? |
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Posted: 9/19/2016 10:30:46 AM EDT
[#23]
As the gun gets smaller recoil managemtn gets worse.
Even a .22 LR can be made small enough to be difficult to manage. Pick what YOU feel the most confidence in and practice with it. At the end of your really bad day having a gun fight only hits count. And only hits to vital things (or that release vital things like blood) matter. Pick the one you are most likely to actually carry. Just about anything beats an empty hand once shooting starts or is needed. |
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Posted: 9/22/2016 11:01:47 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As the gun gets smaller recoil managemtn gets worse. Even a .22 LR can be made small enough to be difficult to manage. Pick what YOU feel the most confidence in and practice with it. At the end of your really bad day having a gun fight only hits count. And only hits to vital things (or that release vital things like blood) matter. Pick the one you are most likely to actually carry. Just about anything beats an empty hand once shooting starts or is needed. And while I like +P and +P+ loads, just for the heck of it ..I will not recommend them when someone asks an opinion about a self defense load. |
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Posted: 9/22/2016 2:32:26 PM EDT
[#25]
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Carry a pistol caliber combo that allows you to empty a full mag at speed at ten yards into an area the size of a playing card consistently. Does not matter if it is a 22 or 45. Shot placement at speed is what gets the job done I have no idea of your skill level so this isn't directed at you, but I don't think most people are capable of a mag dump at speed keeping that tight a group. I sure cant. I'd welcome anybody to post some videos up, I put some of mine up today. I know you got em
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Posted: 9/22/2016 3:52:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Full speed is as fast as you can accomplish the shot
Placement. For some that will be 3 seconds or less for others 10 seconds or more. For a long while my deep cover gun was a beretta 25. Think swim trunks on the beach armament. I practiced enough that a playing card size group with a full magazine( 9rounds) at ten yards took about 3 seconds including draw from the pocket - not blistering fast but the best balance I can achieve and still maintain the accuracy level. |
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Posted: 9/22/2016 4:11:02 PM EDT
[#27]
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I have no idea of your skill level so this isn't directed at you, but I don't think most people are capable of a mag dump at speed keeping that tight a group. I sure cant. I'd welcome anybody to post some videos up, I put some of mine up today. I know you got em Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Carry a pistol caliber combo that allows you to empty a full mag at speed at ten yards into an area the size of a playing card consistently. Does not matter if it is a 22 or 45. Shot placement at speed is what gets the job done I have no idea of your skill level so this isn't directed at you, but I don't think most people are capable of a mag dump at speed keeping that tight a group. I sure cant. I'd welcome anybody to post some videos up, I put some of mine up today. I know you got em Challenge accepted 
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Posted: 9/22/2016 4:12:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Full speed is as fast as you can accomplish the shot Placement. For some that will be 3 seconds or less for others 10 seconds or more. For a long while my deep cover gun was a beretta 25. Think swim trunks on the beach armament. I practiced enough that a playing card size group with a full magazine( 9rounds) at ten yards took about 3 seconds including draw from the pocket - not blistering fast but the best balance I can achieve and still maintain the accuracy level. Video? Thats pretty effin fast Id be surprised if my first 3 rounds in this video are under 2 seconds 
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Posted: 9/22/2016 4:33:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea of your skill level so this isn't directed at you, but I don't think most people are capable of a mag dump at speed keeping that tight a group. I sure cant. I'd welcome anybody to post some videos up, I put some of mine up today. I know you got em Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Carry a pistol caliber combo that allows you to empty a full mag at speed at ten yards into an area the size of a playing card consistently. Does not matter if it is a 22 or 45. Shot placement at speed is what gets the job done I have no idea of your skill level so this isn't directed at you, but I don't think most people are capable of a mag dump at speed keeping that tight a group. I sure cant. I'd welcome anybody to post some videos up, I put some of mine up today. I know you got em I have 2 entries as do several others, it's not a difficult challenge. |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 5:03:01 AM EDT
[#30]
Without reading everyone's replies... accuracy through a barrier has much more to do with the design of the bullet itself rather than the caliber. Of course penetration plays a large factor in this as well. For instance, from personal experience shooting a Winchester Ranger 230 grain .45 through a windshield at 7 yards while sitting in the driver seat had essentially no change in POI. Another high quality 230 grain hollow point, I don't recall exactly but I think it was Federal had significant change in POI. Group size was consistent with both.
This was also true for 9mm and 40. Winchester Ranger and Hornandy TAP consistently had the lowest change in POI for all calibers. Again, this is just what my personal experience showed and I'm not trying to sell you on a brand of ammo. I have some pictures of a target from the windshield testing that shows all the results. If interested I will try to find it. |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 8:37:06 AM EDT
[#31]
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I'm not sure why people argue like 9mm is somehow generally more accurate than a .45. That's all got to do with the shooter. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that somehow a 9mm is going to hit more accurately, just because it has less recoil. Most accurate gun I've ever owned was my Kimber Custom II. But yes, it has more felt recoil to me than my 9mm guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As a pathology resident I recieved the specimens at a level 1 trauma center including organs removed following gunshots and bullets if they were recovered during surgery. That was for living patients. Lots of folks shot in the abdomen with a 45 make it to surgery and are home watching the price is right a few days later. I also attended forensic autopsies for patients that didn't make it to surgery. Regardless of caliber, a few shots in the center of the chest ripping through the great vessels and heart are usually fatal. In my experience, which I would argue is real world application of the rounds - the thing that matters is not caliber, it's placement. I'd prefer to hit someone once in the right spot with a 9mm than twice in the gut with a .45 Even a well placed air rifle pellet is lethal, and I can show you the case report to prove that. I'm not sure why people argue like 9mm is somehow generally more accurate than a .45. That's all got to do with the shooter. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that somehow a 9mm is going to hit more accurately, just because it has less recoil. Most accurate gun I've ever owned was my Kimber Custom II. But yes, it has more felt recoil to me than my 9mm guns. For some unknown reason I can shoot my dads m&p45c better than any handgun ever, I need to get one. |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 1:42:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Take his.
 Or trade him something good for it.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:16:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many 9mm shooters have beaten .45 records at bullseye matches? Therein is your answer. Truthfully I like and carry both. Some people just want to not like something and try to vilify with ignorance something that they don't want so that they can justify their choices and for the topics sake, their preferred caliber. As a short example, millennials saying only dinosaurs use .45 when they're championing a cartridge that is older than .45 ACP itself. Explain how that works, using an older cartridge older than .45 ACP but saying anyone using it is ancient history. It's contradictory. Quixotic even. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: As a pathology resident I recieved the specimens at a level 1 trauma center including organs removed following gunshots and bullets if they were recovered during surgery. That was for living patients. Lots of folks shot in the abdomen with a 45 make it to surgery and are home watching the price is right a few days later. I also attended forensic autopsies for patients that didn't make it to surgery. Regardless of caliber, a few shots in the center of the chest ripping through the great vessels and heart are usually fatal. In my experience, which I would argue is real world application of the rounds - the thing that matters is not caliber, it's placement. I'd prefer to hit someone once in the right spot with a 9mm than twice in the gut with a .45 Even a well placed air rifle pellet is lethal, and I can show you the case report to prove that. I'm not sure why people argue like 9mm is somehow generally more accurate than a .45. That's all got to do with the shooter. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that somehow a 9mm is going to hit more accurately, just because it has less recoil. Most accurate gun I've ever owned was my Kimber Custom II. But yes, it has more felt recoil to me than my 9mm guns. Truthfully I like and carry both. Some people just want to not like something and try to vilify with ignorance something that they don't want so that they can justify their choices and for the topics sake, their preferred caliber. As a short example, millennials saying only dinosaurs use .45 when they're championing a cartridge that is older than .45 ACP itself. Explain how that works, using an older cartridge older than .45 ACP but saying anyone using it is ancient history. It's contradictory. Quixotic even. You could write entire volumes of books on things that millennials don't know shit about... and if you did, it would be the whole encyclopedia. I'm 33, and my EDC is a concealed G19... but my evening and weekend rig is often a G21. I just got a Safariland 7390 for it, love it even more for OC. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:36:07 AM EDT
[#34]
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You could write entire volumes of books on things that millennials don't know shit about... and if you did, it would be the whole encyclopedia. I'm 33, and my EDC is a concealed G19... but my evening and weekend rig is often a G21. I just got a Safariland 7390 for it, love it even more for OC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As a pathology resident I recieved the specimens at a level 1 trauma center including organs removed following gunshots and bullets if they were recovered during surgery. That was for living patients. Lots of folks shot in the abdomen with a 45 make it to surgery and are home watching the price is right a few days later. I also attended forensic autopsies for patients that didn't make it to surgery. Regardless of caliber, a few shots in the center of the chest ripping through the great vessels and heart are usually fatal. In my experience, which I would argue is real world application of the rounds - the thing that matters is not caliber, it's placement. I'd prefer to hit someone once in the right spot with a 9mm than twice in the gut with a .45 Even a well placed air rifle pellet is lethal, and I can show you the case report to prove that. I'm not sure why people argue like 9mm is somehow generally more accurate than a .45. That's all got to do with the shooter. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that somehow a 9mm is going to hit more accurately, just because it has less recoil. Most accurate gun I've ever owned was my Kimber Custom II. But yes, it has more felt recoil to me than my 9mm guns. Truthfully I like and carry both. Some people just want to not like something and try to vilify with ignorance something that they don't want so that they can justify their choices and for the topics sake, their preferred caliber. As a short example, millennials saying only dinosaurs use .45 when they're championing a cartridge that is older than .45 ACP itself. Explain how that works, using an older cartridge older than .45 ACP but saying anyone using it is ancient history. It's contradictory. Quixotic even. You could write entire volumes of books on things that millennials don't know shit about... and if you did, it would be the whole encyclopedia. I'm 33, and my EDC is a concealed G19... but my evening and weekend rig is often a G21. I just got a Safariland 7390 for it, love it even more for OC. Ive been known to CC a .45 colt ruger redhawk... and im 32 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:38:43 AM EDT
[#35]
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You could write entire volumes of books on things that millennials don't know shit about... and if you did, it would be the whole encyclopedia. I'm 33, and my EDC is a concealed G19... but my evening and weekend rig is often a G21. I just got a Safariland 7390 for it, love it even more for OC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As a pathology resident I recieved the specimens at a level 1 trauma center including organs removed following gunshots and bullets if they were recovered during surgery. That was for living patients. Lots of folks shot in the abdomen with a 45 make it to surgery and are home watching the price is right a few days later. I also attended forensic autopsies for patients that didn't make it to surgery. Regardless of caliber, a few shots in the center of the chest ripping through the great vessels and heart are usually fatal. In my experience, which I would argue is real world application of the rounds - the thing that matters is not caliber, it's placement. I'd prefer to hit someone once in the right spot with a 9mm than twice in the gut with a .45 Even a well placed air rifle pellet is lethal, and I can show you the case report to prove that. I'm not sure why people argue like 9mm is somehow generally more accurate than a .45. That's all got to do with the shooter. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that somehow a 9mm is going to hit more accurately, just because it has less recoil. Most accurate gun I've ever owned was my Kimber Custom II. But yes, it has more felt recoil to me than my 9mm guns. Truthfully I like and carry both. Some people just want to not like something and try to vilify with ignorance something that they don't want so that they can justify their choices and for the topics sake, their preferred caliber. As a short example, millennials saying only dinosaurs use .45 when they're championing a cartridge that is older than .45 ACP itself. Explain how that works, using an older cartridge older than .45 ACP but saying anyone using it is ancient history. It's contradictory. Quixotic even. You could write entire volumes of books on things that millennials don't know shit about... and if you did, it would be the whole encyclopedia. I'm 33, and my EDC is a concealed G19... but my evening and weekend rig is often a G21. I just got a Safariland 7390 for it, love it even more for OC. Lol...you're a millennial. But..so am I, and I agree they as a whole are idiots. .45 auto and the 1911 have a well deserved place in our history as shooters and are still very much viable. In fact, I spent a good part of my weekend tumbling and sorting .45 brass. I also carry an all steel 6 shot .38spl at times loaded with 158gr LSWCHP +P or 9BPLE in my G19. Kinda old school like that. Old shit works too... |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 1:33:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting again.
Single round ballistics generally don't apply unless you're down to your last round with the last bad guy standing in front of you. It's going to depend on what your restrictions are. If you're in a 10 round state, I'll carry .45ACP x 10 in my G30, with 1 refill coming to 20 rounds. If you're in a non-restricted state, I'll carry 9mm x 15 in my G19, with 1 refill coming to 30 rounds. Most people imagine themselves standing up in a gunfight like they were 12 feet tall and bulletproof, taking aim with their .25 auto (because it's placement, not caliber, right?) for the perfect shot through the terrorist's eye socket bla bla bla.... Look at some cop shooting traffic stop videos. Both guys are hunched down, one handed, chicken neck hold. spray and pray at first contact. The cops are the first ones to regain composure after first contact, but that first contact is all keystone cops....and these guys are trained. In the end, it's up to you. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:15:32 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anything worth shooting is worth shooting again. Single round ballistics generally don't apply unless you're down to your last round with the last bad guy standing in front of you. It's going to depend on what your restrictions are. If you're in a 10 round state, I'll carry .45ACP x 10 in my G30, with 1 refill coming to 20 rounds. If you're in a non-restricted state, I'll carry 9mm x 15 in my G19, with 1 refill coming to 30 rounds. Most people imagine themselves standing up in a gunfight like they were 12 feet tall and bulletproof, taking aim with their .25 auto (because it's placement, not caliber, right?) for the perfect shot through the terrorist's eye socket bla bla bla.... Look at some cop shooting traffic stop videos. Both guys are hunched down, one handed, chicken neck hold. spray and pray at first contact. The cops are the first ones to regain composure after first contact, but that first contact is all keystone cops....and these guys are trained. In the end, it's up to you. Been discussed on arfcom a million times, most just qualify once a year for the dept standards. This does not apply to all leo's of course, but at the range I use if you wanna see stuff getting shot up such as target frames, go watch the Sheriffs dept qualify. I go to a local pd shoot here yearly and that dept makes em shoot a minimum of 3 times per year, the chief puts this shoot on and and we help sponsor it. He said the younger guys had rather be playing video games than go to the range. |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 1:03:49 PM EDT
[#38]
I like 9mm for carry, either single or double stack. My 9mm Shield is considerably smaller & lighter than my Colt 1911.
9mm is also a cheap round starting at $10/box vs cheap .45acp starting around $15. For anything else .45acp. For home defense size & weight aren't as big an issue, and who's worrying about expansion when you're starting with .45? I see a lot of argument over ballistics but IMHO if you're that concerned with absolute performance why not just go 10mm? |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 7:08:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like 9mm for carry, either single or double stack. My 9mm Shield is considerably smaller & lighter than my Colt 1911. 9mm is also a cheap round starting at $10/box vs cheap .45acp starting around $15. For anything else .45acp. For home defense size & weight aren't as big an issue, and who's worrying about expansion when you're starting with .45? I see a lot of argument over ballistics but IMHO if you're that concerned with absolute performance why not just go 10mm? Because it's still a handgun round. All handgun rds underperform, some underperform worse than others. Regarding terminal performance, anything that doesn't directly affect the outcome of the hostile encounter in your favor is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the bad guy expires in the ambulance from your (insert favorite caliber/bullet here) instead of in the ER from my 9mm if he manages to kill us before then. Can bullet 'X' w/sufficient penetration increase the rate of bleedout if it's expanded more than than bullet 'Y' w/sufficient penetration? Yes. Can it increase the bleedout rate enough to affect the outcome of the encounter? Make the BG bleed out so quickly he doesn't have time to harm you? Doubtful, especially when you remember that a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain. Personally, I want some expansion to help prevent overpenetration (that's not a huge concern to me), but will always take sufficient penetration over expansion. I don't trust any man-portable weapon to stop a determined and aggressive bad guy 100% of the time w/a single shot (IIRC, Col. Cooper stated nothing short of a supersonic telephone pole would accomplish that). I recognize the limitations of my handgun and to that extent do not trust it to be reliably effective against a determined & aggressive opponent should I ever have to use it to protect my life. Tomac |
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