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Posted: 2/4/2016 1:21:08 AM EDT
I know that I had this problem when I started shooting my Glock 22 but with practice I overcame it naturally. What factors causes this issue for new shooters?
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 1:30:07 AM EDT
[#1]
Poor trigger control and/or flinching.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 1:32:48 AM EDT
[#2]
There are a number of charts out there showing common reasons for handgun shooting problems.  Search "common shooting errors chart".
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 9:31:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Grip and trigger press
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 9:41:45 AM EDT
[#4]
STOP WITH THAT DAMNED CHART.  It's BS and not helping anyone.

Anyway, new shooters that get the concepts quickly tend to be able to punch out the X-ring...initially.  Then they begin to know when the gun is going to fire and start anticipating the bang and recoil and flinch.  To fight the expected recoil, they subconsciously push the pistol forward (away from them), dipping low-left.  Who wants controlled explosions happening close to their face?

A lot of people recommend a lot of dry fire practice to eliminate a flinch.  However, IMO they're blaming poor trigger control/fundamentals (which dry fire, when done properly, can fix), rather than addressing the actual cause:  reaction to the gun firing.  So (again IMO), the only way to work through a flinch is to shoot more.  Get used to the feeling of the pistol firing and recoiling.  Doubling up ear protection to reduce the concussion (especially indoors) helps too.  Having a friend load a magazine mixed with live rounds and snap caps can help identify a flinch, but only conditioning yourself to be used to recoil will resolve a flinch.  I am prone to flinching myself (especially indoors).  When I see low left, I do a mag dump or two.  It may seem like wasting ammo, but it is serving a purpose.

There are other potential contributing factors.  One is searching for the perfect sight picture.  Some concentrate so hard at getting such a perfect sight alignment and sight picture that when they see everything line up, they force the shot.  Another can be not following through.  They want to see how they did right away.  So they break focus on the front sight and dip the pistol to look over and see where the hole on the target is.  To see if this is the problem, focus on the front sight for a string of 5 shots before looking up to see the results.  Finally, adjusting grip pressure may help.  New shooters don't want the gun to fly out of their hands, so they death grip.  This can make them tire quickly and contribute to forcing shots (they shake from the exertion and overreact to their sights being perfect for a split second).

Good luck!
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 10:02:30 AM EDT
[#5]
I have problems with this also. For me, I need to focus on putting my finger on the trigger the same each time and also concentrate on more grip pressure with my support hand than my firing hand.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 10:30:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
STOP WITH THAT DAMNED CHART.  It's BS and not helping anyone.

Anyway, new shooters that get the concepts quickly tend to be able to punch out the X-ring...initially.  Then they begin to know when the gun is going to fire and start anticipating the bang and recoil and flinch.  To fight the expected recoil, they subconsciously push the pistol forward (away from them), dipping low-left.  Who wants controlled explosions happening close to their face?

A lot of people recommend a lot of dry fire practice to eliminate a flinch.  However, IMO they're blaming poor trigger control/fundamentals (which dry fire, when done properly, can fix), rather than addressing the actual cause:  reaction to the gun firing.  So (again IMO), the only way to work through a flinch is to shoot more.  Get used to the feeling of the pistol firing and recoiling.  Doubling up ear protection to reduce the concussion (especially indoors) helps too.  Having a friend load a magazine mixed with live rounds and snap caps can help identify a flinch, but only conditioning yourself to be used to recoil will resolve a flinch.  I am prone to flinching myself (especially indoors).  When I see low left, I do a mag dump or two.  It may seem like wasting ammo, but it is serving a purpose.

There are other potential contributing factors.  One is searching for the perfect sight picture.  Some concentrate so hard at getting such a perfect sight alignment and sight picture that when they see everything line up, they force the shot.  Another can be not following through.  They want to see how they did right away.  So they break focus on the front sight and dip the pistol to look over and see where the hole on the target is.  To see if this is the problem, focus on the front sight for a string of 5 shots before looking up to see the results.  Finally, adjusting grip pressure may help.  New shooters don't want the gun to fly out of their hands, so they death grip.  This can make them tire quickly and contribute to forcing shots (they shake from the exertion and overreact to their sights being perfect for a split second).

Good luck!
View Quote


100% dead correct.  Its simply the shooting hand clutching at the damn thing that is going to jump and make noise in front of their face.  Shooting is the solution.  Get used to the noise and recoil sensation and keep your eyes open.  See the slide travel and the case pop out.

To help,, shoot .22s, heavy guns for caliber, and only then the light for caiiber guns.  I grew up shooting a Smith M28 6" with Keith .357 loads and never knew a .357 recoiled until I shot K and J frames.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 1:45:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
STOP WITH THAT DAMNED CHART.  It's BS and not helping anyone.

Anyway, new shooters that get the concepts quickly tend to be able to punch out the X-ring...initially.  Then they begin to know when the gun is going to fire and start anticipating the bang and recoil and flinch.  To fight the expected recoil, they subconsciously push the pistol forward (away from them), dipping low-left.  Who wants controlled explosions happening close to their face?

A lot of people recommend a lot of dry fire practice to eliminate a flinch.  However, IMO they're blaming poor trigger control/fundamentals (which dry fire, when done properly, can fix), rather than addressing the actual cause:  reaction to the gun firing.  So (again IMO), the only way to work through a flinch is to shoot more.  Get used to the feeling of the pistol firing and recoiling.  Doubling up ear protection to reduce the concussion (especially indoors) helps too.  Having a friend load a magazine mixed with live rounds and snap caps can help identify a flinch, but only conditioning yourself to be used to recoil will resolve a flinch.  I am prone to flinching myself (especially indoors).  When I see low left, I do a mag dump or two.  It may seem like wasting ammo, but it is serving a purpose.

There are other potential contributing factors.  One is searching for the perfect sight picture.  Some concentrate so hard at getting such a perfect sight alignment and sight picture that when they see everything line up, they force the shot.  Another can be not following through.  They want to see how they did right away.  So they break focus on the front sight and dip the pistol to look over and see where the hole on the target is.  To see if this is the problem, focus on the front sight for a string of 5 shots before looking up to see the results.  Finally, adjusting grip pressure may help.  New shooters don't want the gun to fly out of their hands, so they death grip.  This can make them tire quickly and contribute to forcing shots (they shake from the exertion and overreact to their sights being perfect for a split second).

Good luck!
View Quote


After years of shooting bullseye the chart works very well as a starting point in training.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 2:04:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

After years of shooting bullseye the chart works very well as a starting point in training.
View Quote


I think that is the misunderstanding in that the particular chart in question is a nice reference for more experienced shooters to hone their technique, but for new shooters there are too many other variable that must be addressed before they start adjusting according to a chart.  Assumptions like trigger time, stance, grip/hand-placement, sighting methods, pistol comfort, etc. won't help the new shooter when handing them a chart.  I would agree a certain level of training is required before you start to hone in your bullseye-accuracy.

ROCK6
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 5:59:53 PM EDT
[#9]
I've been shooting for almost 20 years and I still do it.  I blame Glock.

Link Posted: 2/4/2016 6:36:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 8:04:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 8:49:42 PM EDT
[#12]
I was shooting low and left when I first started out, too. I finally figured out it was me over gripping in anticipation of the shot; trying to over control the shot. I read somewhere to make a loose fist with your shooting hand and then slowly  squeeze your fist. You can see the lower two knuckles rolling under; this is what causes you to come off target at the moment of firing. Try practicing by loosening your shooting grip and strengthening your off hand. It worked for me.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 9:08:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 9:38:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Grip and trigger press

This
 


What causes it.  Watch your right hand make a fist and you will see.  The pressure of the grip and the pull of the index finger.  Lefty's shoot low and right.  David
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 11:49:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Huh
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
STOP WITH THAT DAMNED CHART.  It's BS and not helping anyone.

Anyway, new shooters that get the concepts quickly tend to be able to punch out the X-ring...initially.  Then they begin to know when the gun is going to fire and start anticipating the bang and recoil and flinch.  To fight the expected recoil, they subconsciously push the pistol forward (away from them), dipping low-left.  Who wants controlled explosions happening close to their face?

A lot of people recommend a lot of dry fire practice to eliminate a flinch.  However, IMO they're blaming poor trigger control/fundamentals (which dry fire, when done properly, can fix), rather than addressing the actual cause:  reaction to the gun firing.  So (again IMO), the only way to work through a flinch is to shoot more.  Get used to the feeling of the pistol firing and recoiling.  Doubling up ear protection to reduce the concussion (especially indoors) helps too.  Having a friend load a magazine mixed with live rounds and snap caps can help identify a flinch, but only conditioning yourself to be used to recoil will resolve a flinch.  I am prone to flinching myself (especially indoors).  When I see low left, I do a mag dump or two.  It may seem like wasting ammo, but it is serving a purpose.

There are other potential contributing factors.  One is searching for the perfect sight picture.  Some concentrate so hard at getting such a perfect sight alignment and sight picture that when they see everything line up, they force the shot.  Another can be not following through.  They want to see how they did right away.  So they break focus on the front sight and dip the pistol to look over and see where the hole on the target is.  To see if this is the problem, focus on the front sight for a string of 5 shots before looking up to see the results.  Finally, adjusting grip pressure may help.  New shooters don't want the gun to fly out of their hands, so they death grip.  This can make them tire quickly and contribute to forcing shots (they shake from the exertion and overreact to their sights being perfect for a split second).

Good luck!
View Quote

Dude you nailed it, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 11:53:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Poor trigger control and/or flinching.
View Quote


And the trigger finger pressing against the frame.

It's a problem with wide guns like the Glock.
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 8:39:57 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've been shooting for almost 20 years and I still do it.  I blame Glock.

View Quote


Came here to post Glock.  Glock causes the low-left phenomenon.

I've helped a number of friends into the shooting community.  I take them to the range, go over gun safety, and then we shoot a bunch of different handguns.  Most of them decide they want a Glock.  I've had 3 or 4 phone calls over the years from these new-shooter Glock-owning friends (after about 2 or 3 months of shooting) who ask me to help them replace their sights.  They say that the sights must have broken because the gun is consistently off-target.  I ask "How far low and left is it shooting?"  They are all astonished that I knew it was low-left, and ask if it's a known flaw with Glocks.  I respond "No, it's a known flaw with Glock shooters..."  Long, mushy triggers don't help with flinches.

Before the hate flows, yes, I know it happens with all pistols.  My miss is low left if I'm running too fast and anticipating.  I understand the symptoms because I have the disease, regardless of the pistol I'm holding at the moment.

Although it is fun to set up a "Glock Haters" plate rack in 3 gun or USPSA with no-shoot targets low-left of every plate.  Muahahahaha.
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 10:54:21 AM EDT
[#18]
With a Glock, the best way I've found to shoot accurately is cram a buuunch of finger on the trigger, and pull through the trigger like it's a super-shitty double action.

Trying to use it like it's a shitty Geissele SSA just don't work!
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 3:35:21 PM EDT
[#19]
I eliminated the low-left phenomenon in my shooting by adjusting my grip.  I was not gripping the firearm enough with my off hand.  I went with the double death grip approach and my shots moved back to center.
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 5:02:56 PM EDT
[#20]
The Glock is basically the anti-1911 in that it exposes everything wrong with your technique. Someone who shoots a Glock very accurately is generally a truly good shooter.
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 11:04:56 PM EDT
[#21]
One is searching for the perfect sight picture. Some concentrate so hard at getting such a perfect sight alignment and sight picture that when they see everything line up, they force the shot.
View Quote


I have had a problem with this for years.  When I go from my 1911 to my HK P30SK it gets worse.
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 11:25:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
STOP WITH THAT DAMNED CHART.  It's BS and not helping anyone.
View Quote

It was pretty damn accurate with what I was doing wrong and several other people I've taken shooting.z
Link Posted: 2/6/2016 8:00:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Any golfers in here?
It's the exact same thing.  Grip, pressure, anticipating, etc.

Only practice can overcome shortfalls in your "swing" (shooting).  The only difference is that you don't have to go bushwhacking to find your bullet.

;)



Link Posted: 2/6/2016 8:58:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Shot my G19 for the first time yesterday, haven't been to the range since last summer. I was shooting low/left and was getting PISSED! Got home and Googled it, remembered I was doing it wrong . Time to get some practice in!
Link Posted: 2/6/2016 9:16:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Up and right recoil anticipation.
Link Posted: 2/6/2016 9:47:41 AM EDT
[#26]
An experiment

It's not as simple as the chart. The chart is a starting point to rule out the easy fixes.
Link Posted: 2/6/2016 10:55:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Dear Billy,

I applaud the effort and the systematic approach to it.  Excellent work.  You raise two simple points.  Grip.  Flinch.

The effort to try this position and that position and this method and that method are interesting, but are not necessarily BillyDoubleUU.

I will note my opinion that every book writer, bearded guru from the 'Stan, and range trainer don't necessarily know any more than you do.  They simply have a vehicle for repeatedly saying the same thing to make money.  The Way!

I will give you my free internet advice, worth every penny of it, I am damn sure.  

The key word to handgun control is GRIP.  Its hallmark is REPEATABILITY.  Can you do the same thing every time, or is every trigger pull a different situation?

I would like to do two things for you.  First, a few notes about your shooting.  Then, a simple grip suggestion for you.  The shooting notes, I will put here.  The suggestion, I will put in a separate post because it will be what I post every time the low left shooting thread comes up.

Billy:

1)  Your 3 and 7 yard .22LR shooting with the Ruger .22 semi auto is very nice.  You are in control of it.  Statistically, the group centers of your two methods are essentially identical.  I would simply adjust the rear sight a bit right to zero that gun.

2)  You flinch the hell out of the P226.  Where you put your finger matters not one bit.  Tensing your shooting hand.  Tensing the grip with your off hand.  Tensing your shoulders.  Actually pushing forward with the web between your thumb and trigger finger.  All make the rounds go low and left.

Your three yard groups are low to the approximate extent that the bore of the SIG is below the sight line of the SIG.  After that it is Katy Bar the Door.  Proportionally low and left.  Totally the shooter

Two bits of SIG advice.  The bore line is so high above your hand, it makes recoil more obvious with rocking.  It bothers you.  Eventually, you will learn to keep your shots level or just above the sight line as most SIGs are sighted for.  With that progress, zero the rear sight for your personal style.  

Start with bench resting on a padded surface with the SIG at say 15 yards until you can center a group.  Then worry about offhand standing.  You are simply isolating variables that way.  Defeat them one at a time.
Link Posted: 2/6/2016 11:33:18 AM EDT
[#28]
The key to handgun control is GRIP.  The hallmark of successful shooting is a grip that is REPEATABLE.  Can the shooter do the same thing every time?  Or is each shot or group or session a new situation with a new thought from a new book and a new trainer and a new guy with a beard just back from the 'Stan?  All of which just serves to confuse the average shooter trying to learn.

Follows is my thoughts on how to grip a handgun so that it can be done the same way every time.  A repeatable grip.  It does not apply to the 1911 style handgun where the shooter must or thinks he must hold the safety down or else recoil will cause his thumb to knock the safety up.  

This advice does apply to most striker fired and DA/SA semi auto handguns and DA revolvers.

A REPEATABLE GRIP:

1)  Open your shooting hand thumb and trigger finger.

2)  Put the handgun into the web as high up on the back strap as the design allows.

3)  Close your three extra fingers around the grip.

4)  Lock your thumb down along the tip of your middle finger stacking little, ring, middle, and thumb in that order.  

4a)  Hold the gun with the firmness that you would shake hands with an athletic woman you respected but did not wish to hurt.  Firmly, but not crushed.  Firmly, not loosely.  Firmly, as you would hold a hammer or other tool, but not so tightly as holding it tires your hand.

5)  Put your trigger finger in a safe extended place along the side or if you intend to shoot right now, into the trigger guard.  Where in a moment.

6)  If you intend to shoot with two hands, take your shooting hand and place it into your off hand so that the forward joints of your shooting hand fit into the grooves of your off hand with your off hand trigger finger up against the bottom of the trigger guard.

7)  Your off hand thumb lays atop your shooting hand thumb where ever your hand size puts it.

8)  Extend and lock out your elbows and wrists forming an isosceles triangle.

9)  Good.  You have either gripped the gun in one hand or formed a two handed isosceles triangle position.  "Where in a moment" just above was the trigger finger question.

10)  As if your eyes were closed, put your trigger finger into the trigger guard and place your finger against the face of the trigger.  

10a)  Where ever you just put it right now, or in 5) above finding your other hand, is YOUR repeatable trigger finger position.

10b)  This is where YOUR finger NATURALLY lays when using that firearm.  It is the only place you will ever put it when you are forgetful, confused, rushed, tired, scared, whalloped up side the head, bleeding, or laying on the ground.  

10c)  This position is where your hand size and shape fits that firearm.  It will be different for different guns.  But it will be repeatable for each gun in its own style and size.

11)  To shoot, pull the trigger to the rear as directly as you can manage.  Pull the trigger in a smooth fashion as slow or fast as necessary for your shooting problem at hand.

11a)  But do try to isolate your trigger finger from your other nine fingers and two hands and arms and shoulders.  If the only thing moving is your trigger finger curling back, you will make a good shot where the sights are lined up.  Everything else that you start moving is called flinching.

11b)  Note that the above works just as well picking up from a bench, drawing from a holster, or other wise accessing your handgun.  Somehow you have to get a grip on it.  This is a REPEATABLE GRIP.

12)  Once you have decent groups, adjust the rear sight for windage.


Link Posted: 2/6/2016 8:39:44 PM EDT
[#29]
In my case, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with not having enough finger on the trigger.  In fact I when I was shooting left the first time I shot my G26, I was using more finger.  When my POI went more centered the next range session, I was using less trigger finger.  For me it had everything to do with that left thumb.  But I'm sure recoil anticipation is part of the low left problem.  

I know lampshade actual might not agree.  But what helped me was keeping my left thumb up a little higher at more of the slide, above the frame.
Link Posted: 2/7/2016 5:56:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
I know that I had this problem when I started shooting my Glock 22 but with practice I overcame it naturally. What factors causes this issue for new shooters?
View Quote

Watch what happens to the front sight when you just pull on the trigger without trying to keep it level. You will pull it down and to the right if you are right handed. Down and left if you are left handed.
Link Posted: 2/8/2016 4:00:53 PM EDT
[#31]
When in face to face shootout take a step to the left and crouch. I know of an instance where two people practicing quick draw with loaded guns when one  gun went off passing right and low of the  other.  In a locker room. the impact   can still be seen on a locker. A sad reminder.
Link Posted: 2/8/2016 10:36:47 PM EDT
[#32]
improper trigger control
since we were little babies, our fingers naturally want to curl. a trigger by design is suppose to go STRAIGHT back. due to the curling reflex of the finger, right handed shooters tend to curl, ie put sideways pressure onto the trigger

meaning, do trigger intuitively and its fucked up
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