Why all the gen 4 police trades they are like new G21 gen 4, G35 KSP gen 4 , G22 what happened , that new Ruger may take a bite out of them if they play out right.

Removed - Not appropriate for a tech forum - Maynard

We had issues with our Gen 4 21s and got rid of them after less than a year. Sig P-227s now and no problems that I've heard of. I know we were not the only agency to have problems.

Sig has been making a big push to get the LE market...trade deals that are really pretty out hard for some bigger agencies to walk away from.  Factor in the FBIs plans to switch to 9mm and those good trade deals and Sig is getting a lot of business.  I haven't tested anything other than Glocks and the 320 but the glock seems to have advantages over the 320 in its current state.  Sig claims some revisions are in the works though.

Wes

Perhaps "Since the FBI is going to 9mm, we should too"?

 
Yeah the LE market is pretty cut throat when it comes to manufacturers making deals/offers to departments and agencies.  Those are huge contracts and quite lucrative in the long term (think maintenance, spare parts, training of armorers, ect. and all the back side support to the products that they can get paid for) so the cost of the guns is almost immaterial compared to what they will reap over the next several years.  

Part of the reason for seeing all of the .40's as trade-ins is because that's what law enforcement has been using for quite a while, so there's no shortage of those guns out there flooding back into the market as departments either change platforms or upgrade/lifecycle their inventories.  




 



The argument could be made that the FBI's switch back to 9mm is having a ripple effect and flooding the market with .40 guns as well.  To some degree it is definitely true, but the cost of switching to another platform isn't exactly cheap so the smaller departments might hold what they've got for a while till they hit the lifecycle of their inventory.  From a beancounter perspective the switch in the cost of ammo alone is enough to justify the push back to 9mm even factoring in the cost of the new guns/mags/parts/armorers training/maintenance, especially for larger departments.  




 

Now gen 4 specific, perhaps those departments were having issues with those firearms and after a history of malfunctions or issues they just wrote them off in favor of a new platform all together.  I do recall the Gen4's having some teething issues after their release.  

I've wondered the same thing too. The Gen 4 has been out for what, four years or so?

We had g21's. After testing the gen 4's at length, and experiencing a lot of brass to the face with no satisfactory explanation or remedy from the distributor or Glock, we opted out and went with P227's. It was the right choice at the time. We are now looking closely at the P320 weapons systems because of modularity and adaptability.

Closer to six.  

I had a Gen4 21 last year that was a BTF POS.  Any ammo, any shooter, any way you shot it.  

Glocks are best in 9mm.

Indiana State Police had the same issue with their G21's. They were replaced with 227's

Any bad rep with the Gen 3 G21? A buddy of mine worked for the Arkansas Game & Fish and that's what they issued. He was very pleased with his.

What advantage does Glock have over the P320 and let's talk about the advantages the P320 has over Glock too.

Well right now I see used but like new Gen4 guns all over the net for sale they must not had them long . I have a gen 4 in the 17 I got around mid 2014 its been flawless . maybe 600 rounds .

It's funny.  I remembering someone saying it was only with 9mm's.....  

My G26 does something similar.  Last round every mag.  It just poops up.  Straight up basically and not very positive.  Most of the time bounces off the top of the slide. I think I got a BTF once with it.  But all others eject to the right and more positively.  It's not enough for me to worry about.  It's an older Gen III think.

Marketing to white shirts.
New.
Better.
New.
The latest thing.
Did I mention 'New'?

If you don't mind saying, what kind of issues were you having with them? Our agency issues them, and I'd like to keep an eye out for known issues.

Thanks.

The Sig had an advantage with the no trigger pull required for takedown.

There are other issues with the 320 related to its sub component maintenance design which doesn't allow an armorer to do a full rebuild with individual parts. The 320 relies heavily on repair modules that are not all that cheap and have internal springs with wear cycles that mandate replacment of the entire module vs just the springs.

The 320 also has some noticeable nose dive as the slide/ barrel returns to the locked position. A recoil spring change can improve it but it's not a sig recommended mod.

I'll also add that ergonomically, the takedown lever on the 320 beats the snot out of a right handed shooter that shoots thumbs forward, especially in 40 cal. Sig has mentioned making revisions to it but they haven't come to market in public with any examples. I suspect that it may cause some snag issues on a concealed draw that the glock wouldn't have.

I watched five out of five shooters have failure to lock open on a random quantity of ammo mag due to the slide lock being so far back that a good solid thumbs forward and tight master grip pushed the slide stop down with enough pressure to hold the mag follower down on the last round and prevented slide lock.

Also, on making the slide stop lever spring stiffer...that won't fix the issue. Increasing the mag spring pressure might but a good locked in grip places the lever under most shooters thumb and even a strongly sprung mag follower will simply stop until the shooter releases tension on the slide lock, not allowing the slide to be locked back. I've seen left handed shooters experience the same issue on the 320 by the way...the 320 slide stop is ambi and mirrored in location on the left side. The fix will be moving it further forward, which means new stamping tooling for the slide lock lever, new molds for the frames to accommodate the new location and consideration of moving the slide stop notch cut on the slide assemblies vs having extra slide lock lever material going further back in the frame assembly to not have to alter the existing slide notch. Moving the slide lock lever forward may impact the other components inside as well due to realestate available and interaction with mag followers. Holster manufactures may have to revise gear to fit the new and old design to keep current agencies happy and those current agencies will probably want an opportunity to upgrade for little or no cost.

Most interestingly, the still functions when empty and even clicks like its resetting trigger when empty caused several very experinced shooters to think they still had another shot when the gun was empty. That could cause issues in a real shooting incident. At first you see it as a training aid for dry fire, but go put a batch of experinced shooters under stress in a combat course and I bet you'll see several of the shooters pull the trigger at least once on slide lock.

As to Glock advantage/disadvantage, it doesn't have the above listed faults.  It does have finger grooves which I don't mind but some do.  The polymer can withstand impact in cold weather better than the Sig. An armorer can replace every individual component in a Glock except for the barrel, slide and frame...and it's cheap to do that.

Wes

At first it was failures to feed, Glock suggested we cut one coil off the mag springs, umm, No! Solution was to download all mags by one round. Then after around 1,000 rds, the slides would stick to the rear. Not lock back because of the slide stop, just stick to the rear until you hit it forward. I also heard about , but never saw, issues with Cadet's guns at the Academy where the triggers would fail to reset.

We transitioned in the field from Glock 37s and only put a few hundred rounds through the guns and saw very few problems at first. It was the guns going through a 6 month Academy class that were going over 1,000 rounds first and starting to have the issues. Guns were then pulled from the field and more rounds run through them and they started having the same failures.

These problems are a bit disturbing. I do not yet own a 45 but will be buying on this year. Sometime this month I have plans to buy the magazines for whichever pistol is decide on (to beat any EO/legislation). You guys are making me question the G21.4 now.

That said, any links on where I can find these G21.4 trade ins?

I had a Gen 4 21 a few years ago and experienced BTF worse than any other Glock I've owned. It was straight to the face several times per mag. I started watching ejecting brass instead of the front sight.

9mm Glocks from the past few years are some of the worst offenders when it comes to BTF and failures to eject.

All those horror stories from a couple of years ago of BTF scared me off of Gen 4 Glocks. I guess maybe Gen 3 Glocks produced during the same time had those issues, I don't know. I'd like to add another Gen 3 G17 to my stash but I don't want one of the newer ones if it's going to pop me in the face with brass.

Glock has issues like any other manufacturer. Like any end user, agencies seem to either stick with 'em or dump 'em for the next greatest thing.

Ruger has never been much of a player in that market.

Glock, Sig, and S&W have been spanking 'em for some time.

Serviceable fleet vehicles get swapped.

Serviceable fleet firearms get swapped.

If you have enough to call it a fleet, there is a salesman ready to work a deal.

Is this a gen4 thing?  My 9mm glocks are all gen3 and I cannot recall BTF, and I'm left handed.

My dept has all glock gen4 21's. I haven't had a problem with it since I've gotten it nor have I heard of any issues....I prefer the glock trigger to the DA/SA of a SIG as much as I like SIGs too. I'm not a fan of the ergos of the SIG p320 either.....honestly wish we could go to glock 17's....even though the g21 is surprisingly a soft shooter as far as 45's go....not that they're that bad anyway....just a tad big for my small hands....but I shoot it very well even so.

I think KY has contracts with Glock to replace their handguns every few years.

I have yet to see another pistol I would choose over Glock as a 'service pistol'. Glock excels over all others by being basic, simple, rugged, reliable, and the quality is great for what it is.

I just ran 100 Win steel case rounds today in my G17 gen 4 late 2014 build no problems and the ammo was not that dirty got 150 round pack 30.00 also ran 50 in new Ruger American 9mm no problems at all .

 
Oh man, I hope those 227s hit the used market en masse.  

Ling to said Gen4 21's......

My G4 21 has been reliable, but does occasionally drop empties on my head. I've owned many Glocks since the late 80's and all of them have done this.
ETA: with the 10mm barrel I never get hit by brass

They will.

Law enforcement has figured out that modern 9mm does everything they need it to do, and "range ammo" for 9 is enough cheaper than 40 to matter, and some folks don't shoot the 40 very well.

Expect .40 to be completely gone from all big departments very soon.
Really, it already is.

The LE dumping of the 40 is sweet deal for shooters who are not bothered by 40 recoil.
That, plus the price of 40 has dropped.
40 costs about a dollar a box more than 9 now.
I shoot maybe 10 boxes a year of 9 or 40.
Like I give a shit about $10

...and there is a certain satisfaction of having a bullet that's a little bit bigger, even if I know it really isn't better.
What I do know about the .40 is, its at least as good as 9. That much is FOR SURE.

Best post yet.  All manufacturers have issues, Gen4 Glocks don't like weak range ammo.

Mine do.  I've been running a new Gray Gen4 17 fot the past three nights on an old case Remington UMC 115.  Runs like a top, just like the other 5 Gen4 9s I have.  

I don't disagree w/ any of that, but the P227 is a 45, not a 40...