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Posted: 7/26/2015 8:19:53 PM EDT
I have read recently that many police & sheriff's offices are dropping the .40 & going for the 9mm. I don't think the guy knew what he was talking about. I am thinking of buying a Glock 23, and if the .40 is going away, I might look at something else. What do you guys think? or hear?
Thanks, Mark |
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It may be dying off for police use, but its a fine caliber for personal use. its not like they are going to stop making ammo. On the other hand, if you are going to start shooting competitions like USPSA, just buy a 9mm. It much easier to find brass and reloading is cheaper. In fact, I am currently using a G23 for USPSA, but I'm seriously considering switching to 9mm. Cant just drop in a 9 barrel either, its against the class rules that I shoot in. |
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Not going completely away. Look at the 357SIg, .38super, .41Magnum. It takes a long time for a cartridge to go away.
Lose popularity? Yes, that can happen. If you like the .40, buy it. It will be with us for a long time. |
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The pendulum is swinging. Once the new bad boy on the block, .40S&W has lost its mythical aura. It is still what it always has been; a 10mm light that is marginally "better" than 9mm but at the cost of mag capacity and per round price for factory loaded ammo amongst other considerations. However, FBI and NIJ dragged it kicking and screaming into mainstream existence and it is here to stay.
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Ain't going anywhere.... how manh agencies dumped the .45 ACP? I guarantee you that there are more LE Agencies carrying 9mm and .40 S&W than .45 ACP. Even today with all the switching and such.
.40 S&W is here to stay. It is an entrenched cartridge and isn't going anywhere. So say the Supreme Leader & Dictator For Life of the People's Party of .40 S&W! |
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I can remember being called a weirdo because I still preferred 9MM. That being said I do enjoy the .40, but it was a casualty of me trimming calibers
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.40 should never have been born. Doesn't do a thing that 9mm and .45 won't do just as well.
Vs. .45: Much higher pressure, stresses guns, doesn't play well with 1911s. Vs. 9mm. Ammo costs more, lower capacity, higher recoil, stresses frames designed for 9mm. If it disappears, nobody will miss it. |
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This has been brought up on many forums lately because a few high profile dept's have switched to other calibers.
It's NOT going away...not anymore that the 38 special has gone away after that caliber started getting replaced in police holsters some years ago. Just picture the shear numbers of handguns out there in 40 cal in this country....so many have been in service for the last 20 years, that the market was flooded with police trade-in's even years ago when it was at its height of popularity because dept's would switch platform, and dump the old guns.....NOW, we are going to be flooded even more so, and they WILL BE bought by the civilian market...for CHEAP! GOOD... More for me! |
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45GAP and 357 Sig will completely disappear long before 40SW does.
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Quoted:
This has been brought up on many forums lately because a few high profile dept's have switched to other calibers. It's NOT going away...not anymore that the 38 special has gone away after that caliber started getting replaced in police holsters some years ago. Just picture the shear numbers of handguns out there in 40 cal in this country....so many have been in service for the last 20 years, that the market was flooded with police trade-in's even years ago when it was at its height of popularity because dept's would switch platform, and dump the old guns.....NOW, we are going to be flooded even more so, and they WILL BE bought by the civilian market...for CHEAP! GOOD... More for me! View Quote the amount of pistols on the market is offset by the short lifespan of .40 cal pistols |
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Hope not. I just bought a Gen 2 Glock 23, to go with my Gen 2 Glock 22.
Also, it seems that ammo is always on the shelf at Walmart. |
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I've seen a lot of used .40S&W pistols available at the gun shops in the last year or so.
This caliber ammo, was one of the few, that I saw consistently available on big chain stores' shelves, throughout 2013, when everything else, was in short supply. |
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Like everything else, it's a cycle. Now it may be down because of the main users' changes of heart. A few years from now it may come back. Or something else may come up... 5.7x28mm?
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I think it it fading, although it will never likely go away completely. Probably always be more popular than 10mm Auto.
Many of the three gun rule sets are dropping "Major" type power factor scoring that required 40 cal or larger. USPSA will keep 40S&W propped up for awhile unless they get smart and also change their scoring. I have always liked it. Liked reloading it (got two 5-gallon buckets of brass), liked shooting it, and carried it will confidence. Who know maybe something will come along and inject new life into the 40S&W the way the 9mm has come roaring back. |
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Quoted:
the amount of pistols on the market is offset by the short lifespan of .40 cal pistols View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This has been brought up on many forums lately because a few high profile dept's have switched to other calibers. It's NOT going away...not anymore that the 38 special has gone away after that caliber started getting replaced in police holsters some years ago. Just picture the shear numbers of handguns out there in 40 cal in this country....so many have been in service for the last 20 years, that the market was flooded with police trade-in's even years ago when it was at its height of popularity because dept's would switch platform, and dump the old guns.....NOW, we are going to be flooded even more so, and they WILL BE bought by the civilian market...for CHEAP! GOOD... More for me! the amount of pistols on the market is offset by the short lifespan of .40 cal pistols Really?.....I would love to see all these wore out 40's that people seem to talk about. The myth just keeps getting passed along. When my dept switched from 38 to 357mag in the 80's (yeah, I'm old), everyone said the same thing about the k frame S&W's. I was an armorer and told to get ready for them to be "beat" out of time constantly....never happened, they survived just fine. I shoot a lot of 40 ... I mean several hundred rounds a week, and have multiple Glocks and Sigs in the caliber.... A few with round counts into the 30,000 plus range. Regular recoil spring changes and they purr right along. I think wimpy shooters get wore out on 40 long before the guns. |
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You're not maintaining your Sigs as recommended by the factory then.
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.40 is going away like the 45 gap and other rounds. Local used gun boards are full of .40 pistols for cheap.
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Quoted:
.40 is going away like the 45 gap and other rounds. Local used gun boards are full of .40 pistols for cheap. View Quote The local boards around my area is FULL of Glocks of all calibers, so by your logic, they are being dumped and "going away"................or is it that there are just that many Glocks in circulation, just as there are 40 cals of all makes. |
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QUOTE: Your not maintaining your Sig as recommended by the factory then
Yep! Not playin' by the rules...that's me |
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The local boards around my area is FULL of Glocks of all calibers, so by your logic, they are being dumped and "going away"................or is it that there are just that many Glocks in circulation, just as there are 40 cals of all makes. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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.40 is going away like the 45 gap and other rounds. Local used gun boards are full of .40 pistols for cheap. The local boards around my area is FULL of Glocks of all calibers, so by your logic, they are being dumped and "going away"................or is it that there are just that many Glocks in circulation, just as there are 40 cals of all makes. Everywhere I've looked lately, used Glocks are $450-525 unless in 40 caliber in which case they are $350-425. |
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I had been a .40 hater for more than a decade. It is unquestionably a formidable round, but rather than being the best of both worlds between 9mm and .45, I found it to be the worst: More pressure/less manageable than .45 and fewer rounds/little appreciable difference in ballistics over premium 9mm (barrier penetration excluded possibly). For all the pressure and snap, I rather get the full benefits of 10mm (even if they are marginal over .40 until you shoot out to longer distances).
That said, I ended up trading for an M&P Shield and the .40 finally made sense. The platform is somehow mild shooting .40 and I'll take the barrier/auto glass penetration of .40 over 9mm any day for the cost of 1 round compared to the 9mm counterpart. So, .40 makes sense in well-designed polymer single stack compacts... not exactly a major niche for LEO. I really like my Shield, but I wouldn't miss .40 if it disappeared by a long shot... not with all the woes it causes separating brass. That said, 30+ years of service life (continuing) assures its survival. Hell, .32 and .380 are readily available. |
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Agree
40 was and is still in stock everywhere. It's here to stay! |
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I never had any need for a .40 until the ammo dried up and it was the only stuff you could find. I decided then I needed something in that caliber so my sister and I went and each of us bought one. I chose an M&P40 and she picked a Walther P99. Both turned out to be excellent guns and after shooting .40S&W for a bit I came to respect the caliber. The 3 primary handgun calibers are all very effective in center mass hits but they still rate .45acp, .40S&W and then the 9mm but outside the center mass the .45acp maintains it's perfect score, the .40S&W loses several points but still rates as "effective" and the 9mm drops drastically to earn an "ineffective" rating. I know everyone is a ninja and can put shots exactly where they need to go in a gunfight but I prefer calibers that are effective in the center mass and outside it. The .40S&W is here to stay.
As far as what the police generally carry at the moment, anyone who's been in law enforcement knows it changes. The only caliber that has stayed popular in law enforcement is the .45acp and that will never change. The reasons why police departments change guns and calibers is usually political/financial rather that performance of a particular caliber. While the 9mm is rated effective in center mass shots it still rates lower than the .40S&W and the .40S&W in guns like the M&P40, offer high capacity, customizable grip size and soft shooting so it would seem to be the best compromise. You get better capacity than the .45acp and better performance than the 9mm but the 9mm is once again the most common caliber found in PD's across the country. It changes in waves and what comes next is a crap shoot. I'm a former LEO and I've carried a S&W in 9mm and a Glock in .45acp. I liked the S&W and I loved the high capacity I got with the 9mm. I wouldn't consider myself undergunned carrying a high capacity 9mm today, one of my favorite personal handguns is my Beretta 92A1. It's difficult to find a high capacity .45acp that fits my hand despite being tall and having larger hands than many women. You guys with big man hands probably don't have that issue and, honestly, that's a big plus because you can handle the various high capacity .45acp's which is the best of the best. I did carry a G21 .45acp but I have to use a Hogue slip on grip to allow me to get a good grip. That said, while I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9mm or .40S&W, my first choice (should I go back to being a LEO) will always be a high capacity .45acp and most likely the Glock 21. There's no doubt that the .45acp rates the best in every "caliber vs human" test ever performed but you have to live with low capacity mags to have a gun that will fit the large variation of hand sizes found in most PD's so it's rarely ever issued as a primary firearm. The .40S&W makes the most sense after the .45acp but, again, primary issue firearms are chosen based on a lot of factors with caliber being way, way, way down on the list. The .40S&W isn't going anywhere unless some revolutionary new caliber/cartridge comes along that changes the playing field. Consider the .45GAP, it's shuffling around like a zombie caliber that just won't die for a ridiculously long time. The .357Sig which, granted, has way more life in it than the .45GAP, is nowhere near the popularity of the 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp and is still plugging away and has quite a few fans. I'm a fan of the 9mm, with the right ammo type, and keep one in my house for home defense. It's a great caliber that's proven itself all over the world but using all the same testing protocols, the .40S&W is better (in it's ability to put down bad guys). It's not hugely better in center mass hits but it IS better and outside center mass (low abdomen, arms, legs, head) the .40S&W is much better. If I couldn't carry a high capacity. 45acp (such as my G21), my second choice would definitely be a high capacity .40S&W (such as my M&P40) and if I couldn't carry it my third choice would be a high capacity +P rated 9mm (such as my Beretta 92A1) but I wouldn't feel undergunned with any of the three. |
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Every couple days someone posts this with the deep hope that it is.
The fact is, no. It is a good round regardless if you think it didn't solve a problem. |
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Quoted: .40 should never have been born. Doesn't do a thing that 9mm and .45 won't do just as well. Vs. .45: Much higher pressure, stresses guns, doesn't play well with 1911s. Vs. 9mm. Ammo costs more, lower capacity, higher recoil, stresses frames designed for 9mm. If it disappears, nobody will miss it. View Quote HK USP was designed from the start as a .40 S&W platform. Same with the S&W M&P and the Sig Sauer P229. Numerous other handguns were designed for the .40 S&W and were not just shoehorned in. The .40 S&W works very well in 1911s. The main issue is that the 1911 is an outdated piece of crap that should be in a museum and restricted to range toy status only. Cost is the same.... As for performance.... a 9mm 147gr +p+ is the upper limits of the cartridge and it is trying to do what a standard .40 S&W load does. .40 S&W still have better barrier penetration than 9mm and .45 ACP is an anemic load with empty space in the cartridge. It is so outdated that the .45 GAP can do what the .45 ACP can do in a smaller casing. |
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Every couple days someone posts this with the deep hope that it is. The fact is, no. It is a good round regardless if you think it didn't solve a problem. View Quote Well; devil's advocate here... Sure, it intimidates gelatin, I get that. But here's my take on it, and my history. I'm an old guy and have been shooting since I was a kid. So I'm not new to gun related issues. I remember when the .40 was introduced. Wait, let's go back a smidgeon further... I remember when the 10mm was introduced. The FBI loved it and all the talk was that it was "the" supposed man-stopping cartridge to end all discussion on the subject of "man-stopping" cartridges. Fast forward a tick, and the Govt. agencies fell out of love with it because it had it's disadvantages that I won't go into here for fear of expanding this into a short novel. Then came the .40, the perfect mama-bear to the 9mm baby bear and the .45 papa bear. (I guess that made the 10mm the granddad bear in all this). Come full circle, lo and behold, 9mm has picked up some new "man stopping" tricks, so even a very large Govt. agency is going back to 9mm because, surprise surprise, it turns out to actually BE a very good round on man sized animals, and, it brings back the good stuff like higher capacity and controllability. The .40 isn't going away all at once, just as the 10mm hasn't gone away all at once. The 10mm continues to hang on for the bragging rights factor, but .40 doesn't really quite fit that role. The .40 isn't "that" much better than the 9mm, and in fact, going to .45 makes a lot more sense if a person wants to up the horsepower rating of what they carry. My personal history is simple; I know that there is a ton of calibers out there, but for pistol especially, there is a lot of overlap. That's why I have never bought into the 10mm, nor the .40, nor even the 357Sig and other off-calibers. I may never have enough guns nor ammo, but I definitely have enough pistol calibers with .22, .380 (for deep conceal carry), 9mm, and 45acp. (We're talking semi-auto here so I intentionally omit my favorite revolver caliber, the .357/.38. of which I have "enough" of handguns and ammo). Those 4 calibers right there covers every single pistol situation I could ever have to cover, and they do them all well, too. If I were to have bought even one .40 cal. pistol, I would have obligated myself to stock piling yet another caliber of ammo, and even to buy MORE of the guns that chamber it. Nope, ain't gonna do it. Not me. No way. The .40 will be around for a long time, but now that the Govt. has "officially" declared the 9mm to be a more optimum round when taking in all of it's possibilities, variations, and benefits, I think we'll see a definite lessening of the number of handguns offered for sale in that caliber. When the FBI report came out, I have to admit that I felt a little smug, knowing that my refusal to buy into the caliber was right all along. So while some may think that it's a good round even if it didn't solve a problem, I rather think of it as a solution to a problem that never existed. The .40 won't die quickly. It will just wither away like the 10mm, but maybe even a little faster than the 10mm because the 10mm can at least be described as "makes a difference" while the .40 is better described as "so-so". |
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DeltaHawk, I agree with you for the most part. The only part I don't totally agree with is that it is going to die. I just think there are way too many .40s out there to stop the snowball.
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I recently bought a .40 ---for the sole purpose of being ready for the next panic
There is an election coming up and some high profile shootings lately that the media can't seem to let go of--stirring the pot for more gun control---have validated my purchase I much prefer the 9mm but this lone .40 is here to stay. More guns in the collection = more better------right? |
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Thanks for all the responses! I have a Glock 17, & 19 in 9mm. I had a 23 before and sold it. My favorite carry gun is a Sig P 224 in .40. I have a coupon for a blue label Glock, and was thinking of the 23 because I have gobs of mags for it. I even have several M22 mags for it. Then again I also have a few G21 mags left too.
Thanks Much, Mark |
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I don't think the 40 is going anywhere. There are too many pistols made out there to prevent it from fading for at least for a minimum of 50 years. If all 40 pistol production ceased today...it would still hang on for at least 50 years. The 9mm was hardly that popular until the late 70's, early 80's when the "wondernine" came on the scene.... yet it was still available. Mostly for the surplus P38's, Lugers, etc. But all the gun gamers were shooting 38 super. Yet 9mm was still available....for all the surplus German guns. Caliber popularity ebbs and flows. The 40 is currently coming off major law enforcement popularity. In a couple years there will be some major law enforcement shooting where some smart guy will postulate that if officers were carrying a 40 the confrontation would have ended sooner, then suddenly everybody will drop their 9's and come back to 40. Then something else will happen and another guy will say we had it right all along with the 45ACP....just like grandpa...and it is the ultimate "manstopper" then everybody will move to 45ACP for a while. Bottom line, the 40 is a very proven cartridge, and lots of guns have been made for it. Hell, when was the last time anybody produced a 303 British chambered gun? Yet... you can still buy current production ammo for it. And other than a Dragunov here and there that gets imported....when was the last time a gun was made in 7.62x54r in serious numbers? Yet you can still buy current production 7.62x54r all over the place. |
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It may be dying off for police use, but its a fine caliber for personal use. its not like they are going to stop making ammo. On the other hand, if you are going to start shooting competitions like USPSA, just buy a 9mm. It much easier to find brass and reloading is cheaper. In fact, I am currently using a G23 for USPSA, but I'm seriously considering switching to 9mm. Cant just drop in a 9 barrel either, its against the class rules that I shoot in. View Quote 40 is THE round for USPSA, as limited is one of the most popular classes and requires .40 or larger. Production USPSA is run by 9mm, no question. |
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Secondhand, but relevant to this thread, is that the FBI's transition is on hold. Apparently someone in executive management asked why they should buy 10,000 new guns when the old ones were working fine and agents weren't having any trouble passing qualification courses with their 40s. Who knows how it all goes.
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.40 isn't going anywhere IMO; even with all the hate it gets, its still relatively popular. That said, the more people that hate .40, the more there is for me.
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WOW! I got so many answers and opinions, I don't know what to get. I have a Sig P 229 in .40, and my carry Sig P224 which I really like & shoot it really well. I had not planned on using it for GSSF matches. My Glock 17, and 19 are set up for those. For some reason I seem to shoot the 19 better than the 17. Probably b/c the 19 has a Ghost Rocket 3.5 lb trigger in it. I was going to get the 23 so I could use it in my G19 holster and carry it. Plus, I have that Blue Label coupon. I have had a lot of pistols & revolvers in my lifetime, I will figure something out. As to the .45ACP I have 2 that I can carry, a Sig P220 SAS Gen 2 in carry, and a Sig 1911 RCS. Then a full size custom 1911. I too am like the other Gent, I remember when the 10mm came out, then the .40. Also have some 9mm pistols besides the 2 I mentioned. I have been shooting for 52 years, and usually buy something, just to see the bottom drop out of the model I have.
Again, I really appreciate all of your input, Mark PS: Who knows, I will wind up with something... |
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Always buy the .40...
Many will barrel switch to 9 m.m. para. Now you have 2 options if ammo is tough to find. |
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The .40 handguns sit in the used cases at many LGS by me no matter what brand or how rare the model is and the ammo is always well stocked during a panic. There are also more .40s in the used cases than any other caliber. I've noticed this for at least 15 years now so it's nothing new. It's popular, but it's never been as popular as 9mm or 45acp in my experience. I've always told myself that I should buy one for future panics so I can shoot .40 ammo instead of the calibers that are always out of stock. I just can't seem to do it though since it would sit in the back of a safe until then. I've also noticed more problems, malfunctions and catastrophes over the years with handguns chambered in .40. This is what I have experienced.
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I have one handgun in .40, a G23. I bought it to better weather the next ammo shortage because i always seemed to find .40 ammo during the last panic.
It sits quietly waiting for necessity. I have a few hundred rounds for it, but it's merely a means to an end. I much prefer 9mm and 45acp. The G23 isn't horrible to shoot, but with G19s and plentiful 9mm, it seems like a pretty pointless pistol and caliber to me. |
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Still one of my favorites, I've got a Glock 22, a Glock 23, a Sig P226, and a S&W Shield, all chambered in 40 S&W.
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Love the .40 and I think it might just be the best overall choice among pistol calibers. You get a 9mm sized gun that shoots bigger bullets and does both the heavy/slow and light/fast thing very well. From a G23 I can load up plinking ammo that recoils every bit as easy as the lightest 9mm or I can run a 180gr JHP to nearly 1200 fps, that covers a lot of ground in such a nearly perfect sized package.
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No, .40 is NOT going away.
It is just not the hottest Got to have flavor of the day... The basics of the .40 with good defensive ammo are still excellent. But then again so are the 9mm and .45 too. I went to all 9mm to standardize my ammo stash, but during the ammo panic when there was no 9mm to be found anywhere, I could nearly always find plenty of .40 on the shelves at Wal-Mart or Academy. BIGGER_HAMMER |
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No, .40 is NOT going away. It is just not the hottest Got to have flavor of the day... The basics of the .40 with good defensive ammo are still excellent. But then again so are the 9mm and .45 too. I went to all 9mm to standardize my ammo stash, but during the ammo panic when there was no 9mm to be found anywhere, I could nearly always find plenty of .40 on the shelves at Wal-Mart or Academy. BIGGER_HAMMER View Quote If you would get into reloading your own 9mm with a progressive, then there never will be a shortage. ;) My reloading stash for 9mm is sort of low at the moment, but that means I still have a little over 16 lbs of HP-38 powder, about 12,000 bullets of various weights and types, and at least 10,000 9mm cases in 5-gallon buckets, all ready to load. If you pick a favorite round, set up to reload it, and put aside some extra components, there will never be such a thing as a "shortage". |
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The local boards around my area is FULL of Glocks of all calibers, so by your logic, they are being dumped and "going away"................or is it that there are just that many Glocks in circulation, just as there are 40 cals of all makes. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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.40 is going away like the 45 gap and other rounds. Local used gun boards are full of .40 pistols for cheap. The local boards around my area is FULL of Glocks of all calibers, so by your logic, they are being dumped and "going away"................or is it that there are just that many Glocks in circulation, just as there are 40 cals of all makes. I just know people seem to want to unload their .40 pistols and they go for less than the 9mm alternatives. I sold my .40 sig 7 years ago and see no need to buy another .40. Other people I know are reading the FBI report and realizing the recoil is harsher for no gain. They end up selling and buying a 9mm if they want to shoot cheaper, or a 45 just because. It is what it is. |
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Yes
Many agencies are looking at the FBI data and cost of ammunition and making the logical decision to move to 9mm, or "go big" with the 45acp My department issues the Glock 21SF and I much prefer it over the Glock 22 I used at another department. Wish I could carry my P226R in 9mm... |
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My agency went to the .40 in 1999. Admittedly I was not happy with the decision. Finally in 2012 my agency went back to the 9mm. The reason for going back to the 9mm were that over the years the .40 cal Glock 22 and 23's were having issues with parts having to be frequently replaced like extractors and firing pins. Another problem was smaller statured officers had trouble qualifying with the .40 due to the extra recoil and had to go through the course again. Then there was the extra cost of the ammunition. With the advent of improved 9mm ammunition offerings it was decided to transition back. The current issued weapon for my 600+ agency is the Glock 17, or 19 with Speer Gold dot 124 +P.
Some officers would have preferred staying with the .40. I'm not one of them. But if people like the .40 then that's all that matters. The FBI though recently released a report based on hundreds of shootings and found no appreciable benefit of the 9mm, .40 or .45 over each other. |
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I don't think the 40 is "going away", but there does seem to be a shift to the 9mm.
One local shop stopped taking in used 40's they had so many used. It's a great caliber, but many bought them without ever shooting one...same with 44 mags years ago. They found out they're not as easy to shoot as other guns. |
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