User Panel
Posted: 7/1/2015 10:33:39 AM EDT
Striker fired pistol designs have matured and the market now reacts with a yawn with any new product introduction with a "Hey, look who is late to the party." Seeing how the AR15 pattern is now the kudzu of the firearms world with its proliferation and plethora of parts; plus the 1911 pattern pistol has almost the same availability. Both are also available for multiple sources as 80% receivers from multiple vendors.
I got this idea from seeing a thread about other sources of grip frames for the Sig P320 and looking at going away from picattiny rail to the KeyMod rail system. Yes, I'm a Debian using geek also. As many may already know, the Sig P320 is built around a removable fire control assembly which is the serial numbered part of this pistol. I propose that this Open Source Striker Fired Pistol have the same type of fire control assembly. This would allow multiple vendors to offer differing frames(e.g. texture, color, and styling) for this design. The removable fire control assembly should be devised with having minimal work to have 80% assemblies for the 'freedom market' The slide assembly could be standardized on the GLOCK© pattern since there are already multiple vendors that produce copies of these. There are several trigger assembly builders for both GLOCK© and S&W M&P© pistols that may be willing to produce a low end variant of their products for this market. It would be to their benefit since a trigger upgrade would be their higher end design. Again, they could enter into cooperatition where several would contribute to the design so that multiple vendors could offer their assemblies as upgrades to the stock trigger. Magazines will be a critical component and this has to be nailed down to a spec. Again, with KCI and MagPul making GLOCK© pattern magazines, this may be a given. With multiple vendors offering parts, the cost per unit could be reduced just as the cost of an AR15 has now been reduced to the $600 range, it may be possible to reduce the cost to roughly $250. Does this idea have merit or should I watch what may be going into my Nicaruagan rolled cigars? |
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Honestly I'd bet it will happen. The problem you will have though is a timeline and widespread adoption.
The AR15 was built in 1959. Over 50 years ago, and it has taken a long time to become so popular. If it had not seen widespread adoption by the US and other military/police agencies around the globe, it would not be as popular as it is today. Sure, making a modular design is part of the equation, but then you have to sell it. This requires a good price point, which is one part flooding the market with parts and accessories (again hard to do in a short time) and another part driving a cooperative yet competitive relationship between companies who (let's face it) have an interest in putting each other out of business. Then once you get that ironed out, you need people to actually want this pistol. Sure the modular features are a good selling point here, but the unfortunate truth is that what you really need are military and LEO sales. This moves units, and get's them seen on all sorts of media by people who want "that gun the army has." Then you have to worry about shit companies producing shit parts and dragging the design down with their bad reviews. All that said, despite the huge challenge to get it going strong, I still do think this will happen. We are probably a couple decades away from it, but I'm sure it's coming. |
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There is some merit to the idea that the serialized receiver should be relatively simple to machine. Leave the complexity in the grip frame, which can be addressed with one casting or plastic mold.
I'd also look at using something like the Glock barrel, of which plenty of COTS components exist. Ditto for sights. |
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I too have had this idea in the past.
I got it after playing a lot of Blacklight: Retribution. I support this idea. |
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As stated the AR15 has had multiple decades to get to where it is, mostly propelled post 2004 with GWOT
I really like the idea of an open source striker gun. However, at this point, that basically what a Glock is. Every part can be sourced from tons of different supplies and you can make a Glock entirely out of non-glock parts. Really the only thing it's lacking is the grip insert concept. At one point I had a large number of concepts I tried to pass on regarding the future of the P320. Metal frames, both steel and aluminum. Grips that accept various magazines (Glock, M&P, M9, etc...) Custom fitted grips. Rail/no-rail. The ability to get different grip angles... While it's personal preference, I would much prefer an M&P precocked striker vs the Glock's "double action" striker. Although, in theory you could develop a way to incorporate both by swapping FCG parts. It would need to also incorporate the ability use a manual thumb safety or not. And have options for the style of safety (think 1911). |
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Easy enough to do honestly...given the proliferation of glock's that would probably be your best jumping point. Design a drop in pack that includes the slide rails which would pin into the grip frame. Hold it in place with 2 or 3 pins.
No idea how the ATF would see this though...would have to ask the lawyer types about it. |
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Might look up Boris' Iron Glock, OP. View Quote Interesting but not exactly what I had in mind. I've got a couple of projects ahead of it but I'll try it. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/214022-Iron-Glock |
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I really like the idea of an open source striker gun. However, at this point, that basically what a Glock is. Every part can be sourced from tons of different supplies and you can make a Glock entirely out of non-glock parts. Really the only thing it's lacking is the grip insert concept. View Quote Not for $250 though. We need to make THAT the goal. |
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I kinda went ahead and did this with a Timberwolf frame, and built a non-Glock. I really don't care for the standard Glock pistol but understood that like an AR15 there is every part imaginable for them and for much cheaper than HK parts. I think it's a great idea. Remember that Lone Wolf was not the first aftermarket frame, but CCFA was with the metal raceframe but they did not last. Still, there are a lot more hurdles to overcome to make it possible. Mags, barrel, and other standardized parts would need to be figured out in such a way to work. Like 'em or not, a Glock based standardization would unfortunately be the way to go today. http://i.imgur.com/zDuphi3.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
I kinda went ahead and did this with a Timberwolf frame, and built a non-Glock. I really don't care for the standard Glock pistol but understood that like an AR15 there is every part imaginable for them and for much cheaper than HK parts. I think it's a great idea. Remember that Lone Wolf was not the first aftermarket frame, but CCFA was with the metal raceframe but they did not last. Still, there are a lot more hurdles to overcome to make it possible. Mags, barrel, and other standardized parts would need to be figured out in such a way to work. Like 'em or not, a Glock based standardization would unfortunately be the way to go today. http://i.imgur.com/zDuphi3.jpg At some point (it's not high on the priority list) I'd love to build a gun using a timberwolf frame and a unity slide. Not sure what trigger I'd want to go with, I love my M&P's Apex trigger, but I'm not sure there's an equivalent (Agency, Zev, ?) Quoted:
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It's already being worked. It's is a very vague statement. What is it's? A sig frame? Modular Glock frame. Josh, any testing needs for that? Hit me up |
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Not for $250 though. We need to make THAT the goal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I really like the idea of an open source striker gun. However, at this point, that basically what a Glock is. Every part can be sourced from tons of different supplies and you can make a Glock entirely out of non-glock parts. Really the only thing it's lacking is the grip insert concept. Not for $250 though. We need to make THAT the goal. If you look @ the possibilities of Boris' Fruity Ghost carefully, we might be able to get down to a $250 AR pistol - albeit w/ a plastic upper. |
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Any more info than that? That sounds interesting. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's already being worked. It's is a very vague statement. What is it's? A sig frame? Modular Glock frame. Any more info than that? That sounds interesting. Not yet, sorry |
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Can you post or pm me the link to the 320 frames? I am a few centuries behind in technology sometimes
I love the idea of a open source gun. As stated the glock is close but until it has a 250/320 type swappable fire control it's not perfect. |
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It's already being worked. It's is a very vague statement. What is it's? A sig frame? Modular Glock frame. Any more info than that? That sounds interesting. Not yet, sorry Keep us updated when you do. |
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As in many other things, it has already been done in science fiction.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the story, but I do remember a character stating that he preferred his earlier contract gun to later production. I think it was from Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake. He may have written that, or some one else, as I think he has invited other writers to take part in that universe. Of course, those were complete guns, delivered to a military end user. But the concept is similar. Sadly, I too believe it will coalesce around the Glock design. I just can't handle a Glock, sorry! I played with my open source 1911 today. It was a 9x23mm Winchester, but I had a .38 Super barrel, and now I can easily shoot .38 Super also. (Yes, I am aware that some people do that anyway). For serious purposes, and especially in cold weather, I would want a lighter spring, but it works fine in July. |
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I have to say that I've been thinking about this more and more and think it's a great idea.
I wish I had a machine shop and a plastics facility so I could do it myself. I like that firearms are becoming open source. Milspec is the original open source for firearms, and now we have things like keymod and mlok. Although they're just mounting options, it's a great idea to open the specs. Based on earlier posts, I see good things coming. |
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It's already being worked. It's is a very vague statement. What is it's? A sig frame? Modular Glock frame. Just coming back because I had a thought. I wonder if this is in any way related to the Modular Handgun Systems contract... |
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Could the XM17 proposal be the modular handgun we're imagining?
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View Quote It could be. |
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LOL the only "modular" gun on that list is the 320. I'm not expecting much if anything to actually come to fruition from that proposal. |
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LOL the only "modular" gun on that list is the 320. I'm not expecting much if anything to actually come to fruition from that proposal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
LOL the only "modular" gun on that list is the 320. I'm not expecting much if anything to actually come to fruition from that proposal. The guns listed are just speculation. |
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LOL the only "modular" gun on that list is the 320. I'm not expecting much if anything to actually come to fruition from that proposal. The guns listed are just speculation. The Beretta APX was announced with the same capability. |
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Wha t about something like an STI/SVI frame?
You could have the metal frame rails and dustcover plus make the beavertail/back of grip in quite a few different shapes, lengths, etc. That would give you a solid point to mount the FCG and the important parts like frame dimensions/rail design, etc. could be standardized, and with metal have a better shot at uniformity. Grips could be mild to wild, polymer, aluminum or steel and could probably be changed to support different magazines/calibers. I'm glad I saw this thread because I have been thinking the same things. |
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