I am very confused about Kahr pistols and their reviews. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I am very confused about Kahr pistols and their reviews. (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 5/15/2015 3:14:06 PM EDT

[#1]

Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

Posted: 5/15/2015 3:19:12 PM EDT

[#2]

Kahr

Colt

Posted: 5/15/2015 3:21:18 PM EDT

[#3]

PM45 owner 500 rounds only problem I got was when my pinky was pushing up on the magazine causing last round stove pipe. corrected my grip and no more issues. I could use a extension, but kind of skips the reason I bought it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 3:47:24 PM EDT

[#4]

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I'd agree that it is sensitive - well, at least more sensitive than say a G19.
It's a function of cramming the most cartridge into the least gun.
All the margin for error is shaved away in order to shrink it as much as possible.
It's not a design failure, it's a design decision. Based on objectives.I think they struck the proper ballance. They made it as small as possible without making it unreliable.

"Unreliable/reliable" is somewhat subjective. I perceive my G19 to be more reliable than my CM-9, but I view my CM-9 as being reliable enough to depend on it. One is a Toyota Hi-Lux and one is a Mini Cooper. The Hi-Lux is without a doubt the more robust vehicle, but there are times you'd be better off with the Mini.

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I believe the fact that Kahr requires a break in period is further proof their design is very sensitive. It tells me that as they come off the factory floor the manfucturer knows there is a strong possiblity of the system not working as intended.
.

I'd agree that it is sensitive - well, at least more sensitive than say a G19.
It's a function of cramming the most cartridge into the least gun.
All the margin for error is shaved away in order to shrink it as much as possible.
It's not a design failure, it's a design decision. Based on objectives.I think they struck the proper ballance. They made it as small as possible without making it unreliable.

"Unreliable/reliable" is somewhat subjective. I perceive my G19 to be more reliable than my CM-9, but I view my CM-9 as being reliable enough to depend on it. One is a Toyota Hi-Lux and one is a Mini Cooper. The Hi-Lux is without a doubt the more robust vehicle, but there are times you'd be better off with the Mini.

I agree with your points regarding the tradeoffs. Downsizing a pistol to such a small size requires some compromises. The design is what it is, and is not inherently a failure. But clearly the design is difficult to implement at a near 100% success rate in a mass production environment. I would argue the small Kahr pistols seem to have more of the "what the fuck!?" nature of problems, where the failure can't be quickly traced to a single bad component.

Posted: 5/15/2015 3:48:48 PM EDT

[#5]

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

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I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

Posted: 5/15/2015 4:13:29 PM EDT

[#6]

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I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.
They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

It was made for one year only, 1999, and only 3500 or so were made. It was discontinued for a variety of reasons, the most important being Major General Keys, USMC (ret) took over Colt and started to divest the company of civilian litigation prone products (remember that was when municipalities were suing gun makers) and focused on the production of military and law enforcement products, of which there was a huge backorder. Additionally the gun was the subject of a lawsuit by Kahr Firearms for copy right infringement concerning the offset barrel lockup hook.

The 9mm "Pocket Nine" Colt gun measures .9" wide at the slide (1.2" at the widest part of the grip), 5.7" long to tip of beavertail to muzzle and 3.7" from base of mag well to top of rear sight. It weighs 16.2 ozs with mag, unloaded. The trigger pull is right at 7.8lbs (the Sig 290 RS is 8.5lbs) and is DAO. It has no manual safety and is all metal with a stainless slide and alloy receiver. 6+1 capacity. It pretty much is a Kahr PM9.

Colt still repairs and services them.

Posted: 5/15/2015 7:51:44 PM EDT

[#7]

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I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

That makes two of us.

My dad had a pocket 9. Nice little gun.

Posted: 5/15/2015 8:14:47 PM EDT

[#8]

I carried a PM9 for over a decade as my office EDC and BUG. It's a very nice little pistol and ran 100% after a couple hundred rounds and polishing the feed ramp.

That being said, I just bought a Glock 43 and it has replaced the Kahr for my carry needs. The Glock is much smoother, softer shooting and the trigger is superior, especially the reset. I've been shooting the Kahr for 10 years and the Glock for a week. I can already shoot the 43 faster and more accurately than the PM9.

Posted: 5/15/2015 8:21:32 PM EDT

[#9]

I've been carrying a P9 and a PM9 in an ankle holster for about a decade. The former went back to the factory for feeding issues. Customer service was excellent. The latter has been stone-cold reliable from the start.

Posted: 5/16/2015 7:31:10 PM EDT

[#10]

My CW40 took 60-70 rounds to work out the issues. My CW380 has been perfect from the start. Just put another 75 rounds through it today. Much nicer to shoot than my LCP.

I am looking for a single stack 9 now, CM9 is definitely in the running.

Posted: 5/16/2015 7:33:58 PM EDT

[#11]

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If I had to do that to my Beretta, Glock, or S&W... it wouldn't be my duty gun or HD gun. I expect my guns to work when bought. No break in period, no fluff and buff, etc... either it works right or it doesn't.

Sounds like crappy design and QC on Kahr's part.

My USP, Glock 22, Beretta 92, S&W 5906, etc... all worked new out of the box.

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Many people don't want to follow the break in period or help it along by racking the gun hundreds of times and leaving the slide locked back overnight. They don't have the best refinement but with a little patience they usually turn out to be great guns. Keep in mind most of the people visiting that forum are ones seeking out help, not the happy owners, and Kahr has very good CS if you do have an issue. Most of the issues are well known and if you encounter any can be easily fixed but lemons always get out, maybe more so with Kahr but I've been very happy with my CM9 and CW380.

If I had to do that to my Beretta, Glock, or S&W... it wouldn't be my duty gun or HD gun. I expect my guns to work when bought. No break in period, no fluff and buff, etc... either it works right or it doesn't.

Sounds like crappy design and QC on Kahr's part.

My USP, Glock 22, Beretta 92, S&W 5906, etc... all worked new out of the box.

I find the gripe about Kahr's breatk-in funny. The first thing someone says when talking about a problem with a Glock, M&P, or whatever, is you need to shoot it more and break it in. None of my 4 Kahr pistols malfunctioned during the break in.

Posted: 5/16/2015 7:37:56 PM EDT

[#12]

I carry the PM9 daily. It goes everywhere that I can take it, in my pocket, in a Mr Mikas Pocket holster.

Mine definitely needed a break in period. It had several FTEs during the 200 round initial period. Then after that, no problems and have never had any since.

Posted: 5/16/2015 8:35:38 PM EDT

[#13]

The two steel frame Kahrs I owned were good to go.

I just got bored and traded them for something else.

I would buy another if I get the urge.

Posted: 5/16/2015 10:33:07 PM EDT

[#14]

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I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

I never knew that about the Pocket 9. Damn, now I kind of want one.

5 of them on GunBroker tonite

Posted: 5/16/2015 10:59:29 PM EDT

[#15]

I have a Kahr P380. It is a jam-o-matic POS.

Much happier with the SIG P938 I bought to replace it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 11:47:13 PM EDT

[#16]

Nothing against the Kahr pistols but I ended up going with a 42 earlier today. I handled one at a LGS and it felt great. Sights,will immediately line up when aiming fast. I would have to twist a Kahr around to line the sights up after aiming fast with it.

Posted: 5/18/2015 1:19:44 AM EDT

[#17]

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Nothing against the Kahr pistols but I ended up going with a 42 earlier today. I handled one at a LGS and it felt great. Sights,will immediately line up when aiming fast. I would have to twist a Kahr around to line the sights up after aiming fast with it.

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No single gun for everyone despite the strident opinions on this board. Good luck with the 42.

Posted: 5/18/2015 7:36:00 AM EDT

[#18]

Common sense would dictate that there is probably a lower bound as to which semi-automatic handgun actions are reliable.........
I believe that Kahr has crossed that line. Then they further dig deeper into the hole of denial by asking you to fire $200 or so worth of ammo through the gun before returning it. My local shops hate selling Kahr and won't take them as trades anymore.

Posted: 5/18/2015 7:38:51 AM EDT

[#19]

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/11/20/2355754_02_colt_pocket_9_640.jpg

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

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My understanding is that there is a distinct difference in terms of reliability of the Kahr metal framed guns, and their polymer framed guns. The polymer framed guns make up the bulk of their sales, and the bulk of their complaints. Their metal guns seem to maintain the reputation they earned back in the 90's. Honestly, it's easy to forget they even make the metal framed guns anymore because they have flooded the market with their cheap polymer framed guns, and their problems.

Oh, look at the spring gauges in those two photos you posted. That will give you some hint as to Kahr's problems. But not all of them.

Posted: 5/18/2015 7:52:03 AM EDT

[#20]

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/11/20/2355754_02_colt_pocket_9_640.jpg

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

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Colt also had about a 12 lb. trigger pull.

Dave N

Posted: 5/18/2015 8:29:01 AM EDT

[#21]

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Colt also had about a 12 lb. trigger pull.

Dave N

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Before Kahr sued Colt. Colt made the Pocket 9.

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/11/20/2355754_02_colt_pocket_9_640.jpg

They worked great and never had an issue. The key was that Colt made them better than Kahr. Why did Kahr sue? Because Colt used the Kahr design.

Colt also had about a 12 lb. trigger pull.

Dave N

Yeah, the triggers were terrible.

Posted: 5/20/2015 9:40:39 AM EDT

[#22]

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What's the deal? Are they really good pistols or are they loaded with problems?

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Kahr is highly inconsistent. Some of their guns work out of the box. Some don't work for spit. You never know which you've got until you've already bought it.

Posted: 5/22/2015 12:45:43 AM EDT

[#23]

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Both guns have a weakpoint in re-assembly where it's very easy to damage a spring in reassembly.

The magazines suck, with top rounds popping out unless the top of the magazine is secured in a carrier.

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I had a CW9 that had the issue of magazines losing the top round when in a pocket mag holster. I would check it every couple of days and find a loose round or two at the bottom of the mag in the carrier. I traded it off for a Smith 642. I have a CT9 now that so far has been good to go, I just can't find a damn holster for it. Holsters are non existent for this model.

Posted: 5/22/2015 9:09:24 AM EDT

[#24]

I have personal experience w/the P380, CW9 & CM9. All have been 100% after the suggested break-in routine (clean, lube, manually cycle 200 times).
Tomac

Posted: 5/22/2015 9:10:00 AM EDT

[#25]

Oops! Double-tap!

Tomac

Posted: 5/22/2015 11:17:35 AM EDT

[#26]

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Pfff.... never needed to "break in" my Glocks, Berettas, or Smiths.

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Brand new and unfired as of yet.

Break-in is important from everything I read.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll241/ppcseniortrip/Back%20up%20guns.jpg

Pfff.... never needed to "break in" my Glocks, Berettas, or Smiths.

Neither have I but I'm not opposed to showing it some love if it means a smaller carry piece than my G19. Time will tell

Posted: 5/22/2015 2:09:24 PM EDT

[#27]

We've had a few come through the shop, and my manager bought one. The CM9 he got was decent, small and reliable. I'm not a fan of their triggers, but that's a matter of preference.

We also have a P380 for sale that is absolutely tiny, but I (a fairly experienced handgunner) cannot rack the slide by hand due to insane spring pressure. The only way I can load it is by pushing the sights against my belt. That is a major problem to me. YMMV

Posted: 5/22/2015 4:24:54 PM EDT

[#28]

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I had a CW9 that had the issue of magazines losing the top round when in a pocket mag holster. I would check it every couple of days and find a loose round or two at the bottom of the mag in the carrier. I traded it off for a Smith 642. I have a CT9 now that so far has been good to go, I just can't find a damn holster for it. Holsters are non existent for this model.

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Both guns have a weakpoint in re-assembly where it's very easy to damage a spring in reassembly.

The magazines suck, with top rounds popping out unless the top of the magazine is secured in a carrier.

I had a CW9 that had the issue of magazines losing the top round when in a pocket mag holster. I would check it every couple of days and find a loose round or two at the bottom of the mag in the carrier. I traded it off for a Smith 642. I have a CT9 now that so far has been good to go, I just can't find a damn holster for it. Holsters are non existent for this model.

What kind of holster do you want for it? In many cases, the CW9 holster will work.