Looking into a possible trade of my Beretta Tomcat for a Manurhin PP. Am I about to F up? The owner of the PP doesn't know much about his gun other than that he had noticed that with the ammo he has tried it likes to jam but doesn't know why. A gunsmith told him that there is a difference between European 7.65x17mm and US 32ACP. I always thought they were dimensionally identical myself but never looked into it. My only conclusion is that maybe the ammo he is using is just not powerful enough to cycle the pistol reliably. The only thing is I won't know anything until after the deal and I start messing with it. I do know one thing. The Tomcat has ran flawlessly for 700 or so rounds but only has a 2000 round life expectancy which is why I don't shoot it much at all anymore. I would love a PP or PPK in 32 but don't know enough about Manurhins other than what can be found in a cursory google search and limited experience shooting a 22 cal PP as a teenager.

Please enlighten me.

TomCat:  Works perfectly for 700 rounds.  Has a reasonably good reset.  Sights not terrible.  You think its one third used up, 700 out of 2000 rounds life.  You are now $1400 away in ammo, 46 boxes at $30 each, costs from wearing it out.  In 700 rounds, you have learned to shoot it and administer it.

Manurhin PP:  fails to function with normal American ammo.  Has a horrid reset you cannot feel.  Already know there are problems with it.  A French knockoff of a German PP.  The springs are old and weak and they were marginal to begin with.  Its heavier and has a worse trigger pull.  All to use the same ammo.

.32acp is .32acp although some European ammo is a little hotter. Very little.  Being for blow back guns, not by much is any of it hotter.  There is a narrow range the guns work within and the ammo stays in that range.  Gunsmith speak for "I don't really know" when he says ammo is different.

Yes, you are trying to talk yourself into F'ing up.  

Keep your TomCat.  Meow!  Buy a PP if you must play, but keep what works.

THE MOST IMPORTANT QUALITY OF ANY FIREARM IS THAT IT WORKS.  EVERY TIME.  ANY THING ELSE IS JUST PERSONAL ERGONOMICS AND EGO.

If you bought a "German" Walther PP before 1986, then you
were really buying a French Manhurin as they made them for
Walther under contract.

A Beretta Model 3032 is my usual BUG.  I'm going to agree that it's a lightweight, light-duty pistol with a limited service life; but, based on my experience using it, I'm going to say that the effective service life of a, 'Tomcat/Alleycat' is more like 2,500 to 3,500 rounds.  I've had mine for a good 15 years now.  The soft alloy frame is beat all to hell; and the anodized finish is severely worn; but that little gun still shoots quite well.  (I'm going to guesstimate, about, 1,000 rounds have gone through it.)  

It's a soft hitting gun - Really a soft hitting gun!  The outstanding advantage to carrying a Model 3032 is that it's a very easy small pistol to transition down to from a standard full-size frame.  Because of the Tomcat/Alleycat's wide backstrap it will grip very close to the full-size semiautomatic you just put down; and your POI will tend to remain the same.  (My groups usually open up a little; but there's no significant loss of user accuracy due to quickly switching from a large pistol to a smaller one - THIS I really like about Beretta's Model 3032!)  

Are you making a mistake?  I don't know?  Sometimes, when I need a lot of concealment and a very flat weapon-profile, I'll carry a Walther PPK-S in 9mm Kurz.  The Walther is an entirely different gun and reflects a change in both purpose and feeling.  Both pistols are blowback operated; BUT, the Walther really lets you know that it's a blowback design!  The Walther hits (marginally) harder; but, at the same time, it feels like a small gun in your hand(s), and might throw your first several shots off.  The Tomcat/Alleycat does NOT feel small in your hand; it simply IS SMALL; and, for me, my POI tends to change very little as I move from a bigger to a smaller pistol.  

In the right hands both of these pistols are, at best, 16 to 18 yard weapons; both of them are light-hitting, 'minor calibers' - Really minor calibers that far too many Americans seem to be much too enamored with, right now.  The German-made Walthers have always worked well, and are known to be highly reliable.  

On the other hand, many of the Interarms-stamped Walthers - especially the pistols Interarms either assembled or manufactured, here, in the States - have poorly designed and/or fitted feed ramps; and none of these defective Walthers are ever going to be trouble-free.  The same thing is, also, true of the early Smith & Wesson-stamped, Walther pistols.  Both should be avoided.  (An Interarms, East German manufactured pistol, like mine, can be flawless, and 100% trustworthy; but a non-German, Interarms/Alexandria, VA, Walther pistol should be avoided - Let someone else have the problems!)  

As for the Manurhin (French/German) Walthers?  As far as I know, they are well-regarded, perfectly reliable pistols with none of the inherent component or design flaws that have plagued many of the other Walther imports, or the early S&W designs.  If your friend's Manurhin pistol is jamming, I can't tell you why; and I won't even venture to guess.  If you decide to go ahead with this trade then I would suggest the following modifications:  Change the existing recoil spring to one from Wolff Gunsprings.  Buy a new Walther magazine.  Use the original bullet these pistols were designed for:  FMJ round nose!  Because these are such light calibers I always carry FMJ/RN bullets for self-defense.  (In any caliber as soft-hitting as one of these, penetration is always worth more than expansion.)  

My personal opinion is that I don't see you, 'shooting craps' on this trade.  Your Tomcat is, probably, going to last longer than you think, and generally look like hell, too.  The Manurhin will be larger, bulkier, more substantial, and more difficult to conceal.  It will, also, be a generally more useable pistol with a much longer useful lifespan.  I'm just not sure how practical it is to evaluate small pistols like these in terms of, 'useful lifespan' or total number of shots?  (Remember the duty-cycle on an expensive and, somewhat, more substantial Seecamp pistol is no different!  Excluding the larger, heavier Walthers all of these lightweight, really small pistols are designed to conceal, easily, rather than to, 'last forever'.)  

Me personally?  I wouldn't be quick to get rid of my little Beretta.  Its assets clearly outweigh its liabilities.  It ain't pretty; and it's sure to get uglier with the passage of time; but, it does what I need it to do, and looks ain't everything!    

I have a Manurhin PP in .32 that has never had a issue with US ammo. Manurhin PP's are excellent firearms and as stated above were made under license to Walther. I personally would rather have the PP than the Tomcat but that is just preference. How many rounds has the owner piut through his? Has it been detail stripped, especially the slide?

If the PP is very clean you could trade for it, flip it and buy a new Tomcat with maybe money left over?

My PP22 is a genuine German one and runs near perfect with CCI products, Blazer and MiniMag.

My PP32 is an East German one not marked as Walther but with the odd numbering sequence on it.  It works perfectly.

Neither have much of a reset.

My PP380 of the French and Interarms era had endless problems.  I bought it when the Mark was really high.  Many $.  Totally embarrassing that I got sucked into buying it because it was cool.   Ultimately it was sold to a collector at the height of the value of the Mark to complete his collection.  Interarms and then WaltherAmerica refused to replace it and could not stop it dropping its magazines.  German, French, and MecGar mags fell out at random with three different catches.  Shipping it back and forth on my own dime wasn't worth the bother anymore.

And the resent on a new gun was weak and the sights were near invisible.

Does your Tomcat fall into the blued version or the INOX version.  Tomcats have a history of cracked frames and slides with the blued version and Beretta isn't recalling them just replacing them with an INOX model for some extra $$.  If it were a blued one I'd get rid of it.  I'd rather have the PP than the Tomcat especially with the frame issues and lack of support from Beretta.

No idea on the round count but probably not too high since he said he has jamming problems with it and it looks like a 95% or better gun

The tomcat is and older blued model from before they beefed up the slide

The external dimensions for .32 ACP and 7.65mm Browning are identical.  

The difference is that European 7.65mm Browning  ammo tends to use .310-311" diameter bullets and slightly thicker brass, while US ammo tends to use .312" bullets with slightly thinner brass.  The only time is becomes a potential problem is if you start loading .312" jacketed or .313" cast bullets into European cases - it works, but if you are shooting them in a pistol with a tight chamber, like the Walther PP, you may have to post size the round to ensure it comes in under SAAMI spec.

------

I'm a big fan of the PP, and as noted above, all of the post war PP, PPK and PPK/S pistols made from 1952 through 1984 (for the PPK in .32 ACP) and 1986 (for the rest of the PP, PPK and PPK/S pistols in .32 ACP and .380 ACP) were made by Manuhrin, with the "made in West Germany" stamped pistols made by Manuhrin with the slides shipped to Walther in Germany to be roll marked, finished and proofed there by Walther - just becoming a "Walther" made pistol.  

The Manuhrin made pistols are not "knock offs" and they are by no mean low quality.  In fact the Manuhrin made and joint Manuhrin/Walther pistols are of much higher quality than the post 1986 pistols made 100% by Walther.   They are also much better than the current S&W made pistols.

I own four of them and all are great shooting pistols - accurate and reliable.  Although a couple of them do have specific preferences if you try to use hollow points.


A British issued L66A1  in .22 LR)




A Manuhrin made PP in .32 ACP - a JW marked (Justiz Wein) Austrian police trade in.  It won't feed XTPs but feeds 60 gr Silver tips with 100% reliability:



Manuhrin PP in .32 ACP - another police trade in, and one that is not picky about what it's fed:




For comparison purposes I also own a Ranger made PPK/S in .380 ACP.  It's picky about feeding hollow points - it likes 102 gr Golden Sabers, but won't feed XTPs reliably:



I also own a S&W made PPK/S in .380 ACP.  It eats anything I feed it:



-------

I also own four FEG pistols, based on the Walther PP and PPK/S designs in both .380 ACP and .32 ACP

FEG APK9S (.380 ACP)




The FEG AP and APK pistols are a little larger than their Walther counterparts to accommodate 9x18mm Makarov:

Walther PPK/S and FEG APK9S:



FEG AP9S and another Walther PP in .32 ACP:



An Interamrs imported APK7S (.32 ACP) and a TGI imported APK7S:



The FEG pistols are arguably "knock offs", that are also beefed up a bit for the 9mm Mak, but the Interarms imported versions are finished to as high a level of quality as the Walther pistols, and with slightly more generous chamber dimensions, they are a little harder on brass, but are very non-picky about ammo, being even more reliable than the Walthers.  They'll eat anything I've ever tried to feed them.

I bought it today. It has some feeding issues with the rounds hanging up on the feed ramp. I removed the barrel and polished it and now it seems to feed fine. I love my new 32. thanks guys. Now I will start actually reloading 32acp. Its $36 a box up here in AK so reloading is still worth doing.

Spam edit - Maynard

little confused.

I'd do the trade and try several different cartriges and find one the PP likes and stick with it.

ETA...
OOPs, I see you already did it.  Wise decision.  I see you polished the feed ramp as well which may be all it needed.

Would like to find a Manurhin 22 lr (already have a .380) to buy from someone who doesn't understand the relationship between the Manurhin factory and Walther.  Or thinks that there is any difference at all in the quality of the pistol.  A Manurhin PP is among the best pistols ever made.

Well I removed the barrel and used a sharpie to cover the feed ramp and see where the rounds were dragging which was on the sides of the feed ramp. I Opened it up with a few different needle files I have and polished it. It hand feeds round much more smoothly now. I will continue to tweek it to perfection as needed after live firing next week.

Now I really want to find either a 380 or 32 auto blued PPK not a PPKS and send it off to Turnbull and have the gun charcoal blued with case hardened accents on the trigger, safety and hammer and niter blued accents on the various pins, grip screws and extractor as well as having the chamber portion of the barrel mount jeweled.

no bitches be dissin yo

lol it would be a beautiful one of a kind gun. And expensive too. I have to find the right donor first. Something genuine German but not WWII as I don't want to mess up a piece of history.