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Posted: 1/8/2015 12:58:35 PM EDT
[#1]
It's a little bit different. It took some getting used to but I like it. I don't think they will continue to become more and more common. I'm curious to see what the system actually looks like.
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Posted: 1/8/2015 2:10:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Technology is nearly always here to stay. Just as lights and lasers got smaller, more reliable, brighter and affordable, so have optics. Once they reach a certain quality, reliability, and price nexus, people start looking for ways to put them on handguns, especially as they are nearly ubiquitous on rifles now.
10 years ago, a flat type AR-15 was the exception, not the rule. Optics ready handguns likely won't share the same popularity, but I don't see them going away. The retail market definitely follows the customization trends closely. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 3:08:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Technology is nearly always here to stay. Just as lights and lasers got smaller, more reliable, brighter and affordable, so have optics. Once they reach a certain quality, reliability, and price nexus, people start looking for ways to put them on handguns, especially as they are nearly ubiquitous on rifles now. 10 years ago, a flat type AR-15 was the exception, not the rule. Optics ready handguns likely won't share the same popularity, but I don't see them going away. The retail market definitely follows the customization trends closely. It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 3:19:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Technology is nearly always here to stay. Just as lights and lasers got smaller, more reliable, brighter and affordable, so have optics. Once they reach a certain quality, reliability, and price nexus, people start looking for ways to put them on handguns, especially as they are nearly ubiquitous on rifles now. 10 years ago, a flat type AR-15 was the exception, not the rule. Optics ready handguns likely won't share the same popularity, but I don't see them going away. The retail market definitely follows the customization trends closely. It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. I say give it time look how far RDS sights have come from the original Aimpoints and EOTechs to the RMR etc. As more interest is showed in pistol RDS more makers and more variety will become available. If they all standardize on mount (RDS and pistol makers) it will only become more common and easier to do. I have not jumped in but I do like them. I may end up getting another 34 for this purpose some day. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 3:29:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Technology is nearly always here to stay. Just as lights and lasers got smaller, more reliable, brighter and affordable, so have optics. Once they reach a certain quality, reliability, and price nexus, people start looking for ways to put them on handguns, especially as they are nearly ubiquitous on rifles now. 10 years ago, a flat type AR-15 was the exception, not the rule. Optics ready handguns likely won't share the same popularity, but I don't see them going away. The retail market definitely follows the customization trends closely. It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. Handgun mounted optics must always remain at least a certain size or you'll have a very hard time finding the dot. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 4:22:47 PM EDT
[#6]
It's a trend when you get past a certain age!
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Posted: 1/8/2015 5:48:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Handgun mounted optics must always remain at least a certain size or you'll have a very hard time finding the dot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Technology is nearly always here to stay. Just as lights and lasers got smaller, more reliable, brighter and affordable, so have optics. Once they reach a certain quality, reliability, and price nexus, people start looking for ways to put them on handguns, especially as they are nearly ubiquitous on rifles now. 10 years ago, a flat type AR-15 was the exception, not the rule. Optics ready handguns likely won't share the same popularity, but I don't see them going away. The retail market definitely follows the customization trends closely. It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. Handgun mounted optics must always remain at least a certain size or you'll have a very hard time finding the dot. THIS... a British company developed the first mini red dot sight for pistols back in the early-90s, but the window was so small that finding the dot was very slow. The current crop of slide-mount red dots are likely in the sweet spot already. I will try to post an old picture I have somewhere. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 6:05:14 PM EDT
[#8]
A very useful accessory for two circumstances - one is practical, the other contrived.
1. Competition where such devices are permitted. --- Practical 2. Hunting with pistol - yes, but why would you do it if you didn't have to. ---Contrived. Not useful for any other purpose on a handgun. Most defensive shootings occur at less than 10 feet. Whoever shoots first wins. Aiming is optional. Take expensive red-dot off pistol, and put on rifle for slaying zombies. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 7:14:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Its truly hard to say honestly because many gun "fads" or "trends" that can seem like they're hear to stay can often recede greatly after a peak is hit. This has happened to many calibers through out years, some came out decades ago and never hit their stride unless years later, others arrived ready to change the game then faded almost quickly as they came.
For a period of time people wanted to hang almost as much as they could off an AR, SKS, Mini, etc. now a minimalist mentality has taken over for the most part. People turned surplus rifles into deer rifles almost as fast as they could get them, now its considered blasphemy to do such. There are many more examples of this than I can call for. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 8:06:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A very useful accessory for two circumstances - one is practical, the other contrived. 1. Competition where such devices are permitted. --- Practical 2. Hunting with pistol - yes, but why would you do it if you didn't have to. ---Contrived. Not useful for any other purpose on a handgun. Most defensive shootings occur at less than 10 feet. Whoever shoots first wins. Aiming is optional. Take expensive red-dot off pistol, and put on rifle for slaying zombies. You must be a cop and that explains so much..... The whole post is kind of  . Have you used a RDS on a pistol?
FYI not who shoots first it is the first to get hits. Only hits count and many shooting have more flyers than hits. Always aim because you opponent can easily get off 5-6 shots and all be misses you can take the splits of seconds longer aim and get hits on target in effective areas. You are operating under the old idea that pistols have magical stopping power. RDS on a pistol allows faster aim thus faster hits on target. |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 8:14:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Whoever hits first without wasting time aiming wins.
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Posted: 1/8/2015 8:19:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Its nothing new. Kelly mccan had one on his glock gen 2 in the what 80's or 90's
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Posted: 1/8/2015 8:23:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoever hits first without wasting time aiming wins. I hope you never get in a shooting around me or anyone I know. I suppose you have experience being shot at and shooting back with that brilliant tidbit of genius knowledge.
These types of posts are not going to be tolerated, they do nothing to convey technical knowledge on either shooting or equipment. Tone it down - Maynard |
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Posted: 1/9/2015 12:45:24 AM EDT
[#14]
Following up on my post above, I scanned the image below from an old British gun magazine (circa 1992). The EPC (electronic prismatic collimator) sight was very small, and designed to be attached to the slide with adhesive (epoxy IIRC) so as to co-witness with the iron sights. Unfortunately, it was a failure technically (very small FOV, and I recall seeing one launched into orbit when the glue gave out) and a failure commercially, but the same team followed up with the much more successful FirePoint model that they private labeled for a major manufacture (as the Tasco Optima). An interesting piece of shooting history to be sure:
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Posted: 1/9/2015 12:46:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a trend when you get past a certain age! |
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Posted: 1/9/2015 8:23:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A very useful accessory for two circumstances - one is practical, the other contrived. 1. Competition where such devices are permitted. --- Practical 2. Hunting with pistol - yes, but why would you do it if you didn't have to. ---Contrived. Not useful for any other purpose on a handgun. Most defensive shootings occur at less than 10 feet. Whoever shoots first wins. Aiming is optional. Take expensive red-dot off pistol, and put on rifle for slaying zombies. Based on personal experience overseas, that isnt very accurate Training is what matters more than whoever gets the first shot. You cannot always prevent an ambush. Moving on, RDS are in use on Glocks by some very cool guys, doing very good things to bad people. I'm sure they appreciate the concept of a red dot on their pistol. |
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Posted: 1/9/2015 9:34:11 AM EDT
[#17]
It is here to stay. It has been an evolving trend since the 1980s.
1998 Film - Ronin  Very famously used a Glock 17L with a Bushnell HoloSight on a C-More mount. This was a very early cinematic use of that sight.
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Posted: 1/9/2015 3:21:04 PM EDT
[#18]
I've yet to shoot one, but a trainer who I'm taking a class with in a few weeks is in the group that designed the Atom mount. I'll check out his rig at the class.
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Posted: 1/9/2015 4:45:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Beyond contact distances (which are generally handled with point shooting anyway) there is no longer any rational debate that RDS are an improvement over iron sights - whether on a short-distance carbine or a handgun.
The improvement is of course: speed. And in a gunfight between 2 people, the 1st ACCURATE shot generally wins. (I am not talking about slow fire, such as sniper fire, or squad-auto suppressive fire, etc). The problem with RDS on a pistol was always: reliability in combat. What if the dot goes out? By co-witnessing the dot with the existing irons, that issue disappears. If the dot goes out, the RDS simply becomes a huge ghost ring through which you can see the irons. |
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Posted: 1/9/2015 5:22:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Most pistol red dots block the irons. If they fuck up, the inability to hit things outweighs the slight speed advantage when they're working.
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Posted: 1/10/2015 12:02:06 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most pistol red dots block the irons. If they fuck up, the inability to hit things outweighs the slight speed advantage when they're working. Completely wrong. Nice try. The current preferred method of mounting is milling the slide to set the optic lower, then installing suppressor sites. That raises the iron sight picture above the base of the optic making them usable. |
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Posted: 1/10/2015 12:22:07 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Completely wrong. Nice try. The current preferred method of mounting is milling the slide to set the optic lower, then installing suppressor sites. That raises the iron sight picture above the base of the optic making them usable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Most pistol red dots block the irons. If they fuck up, the inability to hit things outweighs the slight speed advantage when they're working. Completely wrong. Nice try. The current preferred method of mounting is milling the slide to set the optic lower, then installing suppressor sites. That raises the iron sight picture above the base of the optic making them usable. This |
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Posted: 1/10/2015 12:25:59 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most pistol red dots block the irons. If they fuck up, the inability to hit things outweighs the slight speed advantage when they're working. Yep. We can tell that you have zero experience on the subject you're talking about. 
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Posted: 1/10/2015 12:50:01 AM EDT
[#25]
I have no experience with red dots on a pistol. Will someone post a picture to give an idea what it looks like?
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Posted: 1/10/2015 1:46:32 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 1/10/2015 2:01:06 AM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 1/10/2015 2:09:12 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A very useful accessory for two circumstances - one is practical, the other contrived. 1. Competition where such devices are permitted. --- Practical 2. Hunting with pistol - yes, but why would you do it if you didn't have to. ---Contrived. Not useful for any other purpose on a handgun. Most defensive shootings occur at less than 10 feet. Whoever shoots first wins. Aiming is optional. Take expensive red-dot off pistol, and put on rifle for slaying zombies. |
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Posted: 1/10/2015 10:04:51 PM EDT
[#29]
I'd love to have my duty weapon outfitted with one. Anyone who is against them still running irons on an AR as well? I've only handled inert /unloaded guns with them at conventions but am really looking forward to giving a gun with one a shot.
My 'Only' concern is that when working in the rain/in climate weather my pistol/holster is exposed on my duty rig... So I'd be curious as to how they hold up to the elements, if anyone makes a holster that protects them, how they handle with water on the lenses, etc... They'd be great on a shield (a literally shield not the CCW pistol). |
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Posted: 1/10/2015 10:22:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Here to stay.
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Posted: 1/10/2015 10:24:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd love to have my duty weapon outfitted with one. Anyone who is against them still running irons on an AR as well? I've only handled inert /unloaded guns with them at conventions but am really looking forward to giving a gun with one a shot. My 'Only' concern is that when working in the rain/in climate weather my pistol/holster is exposed on my duty rig... So I'd be curious as to how they hold up to the elements, if anyone makes a holster that protects them, how they handle with water on the lenses, etc... They'd be great on a shield (a literally shield not the CCW pistol). If you are on the Glock Forum go to Sam Spade and ask him. |
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Posted: 1/10/2015 10:57:58 PM EDT
[#32]
I have several M&P pistols I use for 3-Gun/USPSA competitions, including a pair of competition-optimized 9mm versions. One is a regular 5" Pro with iron sights, the other is a Mag-Na-Ported CORE with Leupold DeltaPoint. Photos below. I have a lot more time behind the iron sights, and I shoot them faster than with the red dot, mainly because I struggle finding and keeping the dot in the relatively small window of the DeltaPoint. However, at longer distances (>25 yards) the red dot starts to deliver better accuracy, presumably because it eliminates small errors in sight alignment.
At the end of the day, the shot timer does not lie. For the foreseeable future, and at typical self-defense distances, I will be sticking with iron sights. If/when I start to struggle with iron sights (I am 49, no problems so far) and/or get better with the dot, I can imagine my preference could evolve. 
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Posted: 1/10/2015 11:15:20 PM EDT
[#33]
I've had a Docter mini red dot (known as a J-Point now) on a Ruger MKII with a Volquartsen upper for well over a decade. It really isn't new, the mainstream is slow on the uptake.
IPSC shooters have been fooling around with mini red dots for a couple of decades now. |
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Posted: 1/11/2015 12:30:01 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've had a Docter mini red dot (known as a J-Point now) on a Ruger MKII with a Volquartsen upper for well over a decade. It really isn't new, the mainstream is slow on the uptake. IPSC shooters have been fooling around with mini red dots for a couple of decades now. Yeah, I have one on a P14 Limited I used to shoot. I think I put it on in 98(?) & it still works fine. It's an Optima. Basically looks the same as a Docter. Has a cover that turns it on & off that you can tether to a holster if you wanted to. |
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Posted: 1/11/2015 9:09:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd love to have my duty weapon outfitted with one. Anyone who is against them still running irons on an AR as well? I've only handled inert /unloaded guns with them at conventions but am really looking forward to giving a gun with one a shot. My 'Only' concern is that when working in the rain/in climate weather my pistol/holster is exposed on my duty rig... So I'd be curious as to how they hold up to the elements, if anyone makes a holster that protects them, how they handle with water on the lenses, etc... They'd be great on a shield (a literally shield not the CCW pistol). Safariland makes an ALS with a hood for the red dot. the good is on a hinge, so when the gun is drawn it pops right off. If anyone is seriously considering a MRDS on a handgun, I would google docgkr's experience with them. His agency has been testing different tights for many years and thousands of rounds. |
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Posted: 1/11/2015 10:14:32 AM EDT
[#36]
I think they can make you a little faster and a little more accurate.
Personally I don't think red dots deliver enough advantages at self-defense distances to justify the cost like they do on a rifle. Not a hater though |
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Posted: 1/11/2015 11:04:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Its here to stay....just like RDS on AR's , probably in similar volumes.
Another thing I will point out is old eyes....since the iron sights are blurry, ( from my age ), RDS are much easier to use. Not everyone will use them... but they will stay. The aftermarket is already making universal mounting systems... http://www.rainierarms.com/unity-tactical-atom-glock-17-slide-flat-dark-earth http://www.unitytactical.com/products/atom-mount/ 
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Posted: 1/11/2015 1:17:54 PM EDT
[#38]
The only handgun I have a red dot scope on is my Ruger MKIII, with an Ultradot.
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Posted: 1/11/2015 1:59:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hi, this is the state of the art in my area. This is my CORE with the RMR4 and I have been training like mad with it. At least 6 Cops I know are now carrying them on their Glocks with the Suarez conversion. That has been approved by at least three departments I know of. This one co-witnesses perfectly and that is one of the requirements of the departments that have approved it so far. My partner went to Suarez's class in Phoenix and came home and ran me through the drills. I have stayed the same (fast) on close shots but it is distance shots that I have vastly improved my ability to make a first shot hit. The red dot (or amber) shows clearly at 50+ meters and the bullet goes where the dot is. Suarez teaches to use the side of the slide as a quick aim in close (up to 5 meters) try it. Then us your sights to find the red dot, you get fast with that. After several hours you find the dot quickly and the sights are also there, from there speed begins to really happen. <a href="http://s4.photobucket.com/user/threefeathers/media/Dans%20Firearms/RMR_zps1fe7df78.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/threefeathers/Dans%20Firearms/RMR_zps1fe7df78.jpg</a> These sights are a godsend for older folks. My Detective buddies are in their early 50's and I'm a very fit 73 and the red dots work very well. |
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Posted: 1/11/2015 3:19:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Agreed. It is here to stay. Glock is introducing optic ready models. Also a great alternative for shooters with less than great eyes.
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Posted: 1/24/2015 4:15:21 AM EDT
[#41]
I have a glock with a red dot. I have only shot it in one match but I did well in the stages where running and gunning were involved. The more static stages favored the iron sights as I was slow to acquire the dot. That would be unfamiliarity. They are here to stay. When my kids can handle a 9mm they will probably start with the dot in steel challenge.
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Posted: 1/26/2015 1:16:58 AM EDT
[#42]
I'm slow to find the dot with an RMR. Something practise would likely mitigate. Lack of holsters is an issue for LE users. For competition I would prefer a fixed optic mounted on the frame if I were going to use one.
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Posted: 1/26/2015 1:32:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only handgun I have a red dot scope on is my Ruger MKIII, with an Ultradot. http://i.imgur.com/kT6zal5.jpg?2 Never heard of a "ultradot." Is it new? WHere's it made & what made you choose that? |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 1:46:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never heard of a "ultradot." Is it new? WHere's it made & what made you choose that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The only handgun I have a red dot scope on is my Ruger MKIII, with an Ultradot. http://i.imgur.com/kT6zal5.jpg?2 Never heard of a "ultradot." Is it new? WHere's it made & what made you choose that? They have been used in NRA bullseye pistol shooting for a long time.
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Posted: 1/26/2015 4:13:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
THIS... a British company developed the first mini red dot sight for pistols back in the early-90s, but the window was so small that finding the dot was very slow. The current crop of slide-mount red dots are likely in the sweet spot already. I will try to post an old picture I have somewhere. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Technology is nearly always here to stay. Just as lights and lasers got smaller, more reliable, brighter and affordable, so have optics. Once they reach a certain quality, reliability, and price nexus, people start looking for ways to put them on handguns, especially as they are nearly ubiquitous on rifles now. 10 years ago, a flat type AR-15 was the exception, not the rule. Optics ready handguns likely won't share the same popularity, but I don't see them going away. The retail market definitely follows the customization trends closely. It would be cool to see a mini red dot that's about the size of a rear sight. Handgun mounted optics must always remain at least a certain size or you'll have a very hard time finding the dot. THIS... a British company developed the first mini red dot sight for pistols back in the early-90s, but the window was so small that finding the dot was very slow. The current crop of slide-mount red dots are likely in the sweet spot already. I will try to post an old picture I have somewhere. I vaguely remember having some mail order literature of this or something similar. ETA: Should have scrolled down further, holy crap that's it! I posted about this a while back and no one knew WTF I was talking about. 
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Posted: 1/26/2015 5:12:43 PM EDT
[#46]
i want a red dot on my Shield
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Posted: 1/26/2015 5:57:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a trend when you get past a certain age! What he said. Seeing sights with older eyes isn't so easy. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 6:31:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a glock with a red dot. I have only shot it in one match but I did well in the stages where running and gunning were involved. The more static stages favored the iron sights as I was slow to acquire the dot. That would be unfamiliarity. They are here to stay. When my kids can handle a 9mm they will probably start with the dot in steel challenge. I've found the opposite to be true in the matches I've shot.its much easier for me to track/find the dot when shooting static than when shooting on the move. I think the biggest issue is the lack of rear sight. But that's being/ been solved since I sent my slide off to l&m to get a rear dovetail and suppressor sights |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 1:21:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd love to have my duty weapon outfitted with one. Anyone who is against them still running irons on an AR as well? I've only handled inert /unloaded guns with them at conventions but am really looking forward to giving a gun with one a shot. My 'Only' concern is that when working in the rain/in climate weather my pistol/holster is exposed on my duty rig... So I'd be curious as to how they hold up to the elements, if anyone makes a holster that protects them, how they handle with water on the lenses, etc... They'd be great on a shield (a literally shield not the CCW pistol). |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 5:55:31 AM EDT
[#50]
Even though it won't damage the sight, a wet RMR can be unusable.
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