went to the range to day here is a pic of the target its a standard 8.5x11 printer paper target.

i had trijicon HD night sights put on when i bought the gun so i dont know how i shot with the original ones. im not to woried about the group size since theres lots of gap between the front and rear sight there not target sights im just woried about the placement of the group.

this target was at 30 feet. at what range would you guys suggest shooting at to see if the sights are a tad off or if its me doing it. and how far off from center at that distance would translate into this much off.


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I have my students start at 10ft

 

Starting closer and shooting off a rest or bag will let you know if its you or the sights.

Anticipating recoil?

Eta I found chart

Right handed

ya i saw that chart before but when i started i was puting the front circle on the bottom of the U in the rear sight and it was shooting low left so then i floated the front circle in the middle of the U and it make the tops of front and rear sight level and thats what i got so im not to worried about the elevation as much since the left to right is whats not changing

Move the rear sight about 20 thousandths to the right.

You asked how far to move the sights.   Target is at 360 inches away, center of group is 1.5 inches to the left.  You use the method of similar triangles.  1.5/360 * (sight radius)

I see about 34 shots so the group center, left and right for quick reference, would be between the 17 and 18 shots going right to left.  Simply count over half the number of shots.

I would translate your group as about 1 3/4" to the left at 10 yards.  This is about 4" at 25 yards.  Depending on the sight radius of your pistol, the amount to move the rear sight to the right would vary.

From an old post of mine, the general idea should be clear:

5a) In moving either the front or rear sight, how much to move it is always a headache. There are mathematical formulas down to the last 0.001". Easier is to use a 0.7mm mechanical pencil and put a pencil line on each side of the sight on the bottom of the dovetail cut into the slide. As you move the sight left or right, cover one line and expose the other line more. With a full size 4-5" barrel service pistol, one line is about 2" at 15 yards and 3" at 25 yards. With a smaller pistol having a 3-3.5" barrel, one line is about 3" at 15 yards or 5" at 25 yards. The difference is because of the sight radius being much shorter. The same amount of move generates a larger change in the smaller pistol. The line that you move away from is always there so you can move back towards it if you went too far. Degrease the dovetail bottom before marking and the pencil mark lasts a good while.

The whole post is at:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/148288_Beginner_Level_Set_Up_Of_A_New_Pistol.html

The simplest answer is to make the pencil marks and cover the one on the right side by moving the rear sight to the right.  Cover it.  Not go past it.  Shoot the gun and see the effect.  Move more or leave put if you like the result.

(PS: I can calculate the exact 1/1000, but have found I cannot shoot that perfectly.  The pencil marks allow you to back up if needed.  Clean the old ones and make a new set each move as long as you know what you wish to do.  Your inched target is a good idea.  Been using a variation of it for 20 years.  You might wish to use a padded rest and shrink the group size some, but you are on the right track with your off hand shooting.  Ignore the "its always the shooter" guys who bust your balls with error wheels.  Depending on the firearm, this could be a medium quality grouping or a fantasticly good one or could be......Just do your own thing and work to improve.  Centered groups always cheer the shooter up.)

At thirty feet any group larger than three inches ( really two but I am cutting you some slack) shows fundamental errors in pistol technique. You need a hands on mentor. Once groups shrink to the appropriate size adjustments can be made. Your sights could be off but you can't reliably do adjustments with groups that big. Starting close is a confidence builder but keep in mind mistakes hidden at close range are greatly magnified as your range extends . I know run and gun speed demons who appear to be good shots, but never shoot at anything smaller than paper plate size at ten yards and in. Ask them to hit what should be an easy target- say a full size paper plate at 25 yards- and it takes them 10-12 shots.
At close in distance say 7 yards ( you needs to slow down analyze and process every aspect of the shot stance grip sights trigger) you should be shooting one ragged hole groups when doing it right.
Also when focusing on sights in day light ( night sights dots are designed to give you a rough sight alignment in low light at close range)
Do not focus on the dot/ dots! Place the entire front sight in the rear notch equal height to rear equal light each side. Then shoot. Often night sights when shooting to the dots will be off

I would not argue that your group is larger than desirable, but it is a centrally weighted group with an obvious center.  That simply means most of your shots go into the same place.  A few wander >  <  /\  \/  .  Basically so what.  You can see the center and I can see the center.  Besides, counting half way into the number of shot holes gives you the center anyhow.  Keep at it.  You are making progress.  

Real progress you can see would be to center the group.  See above for that info.

Once they start impacting center, you can figure out what causes the individual outer hits.  My suggestion is to center the group which you are clearly capable of making.  I mean adjust your sights as needed.  Then shoot more.  

Once the group is centered, hits away from center have a cause.  The error chart is accurate, just a waste at the moment until you get most of your shots into the center.

Mostly practice, sight alignment, and trigger control will help reduce overall group size.  About 60 percent of your shots are in a 2" group.  The rest will start to get closer and closer to the core.

But you are off to a good start.

Your only real mistake is asking for advice on the internet.  Which unfortunately mirrors the real world.  Good and bad advice mixed which is hard to tell apart.

The advice to avoid with a passion is the group of inter-neters who insist every gun shoots to your point of aim with the sights centered on the slides.  Total Huey, Duey, and Luey advice. (Read Bull Shiest)

The only thing that matters is where your gun shoots in your hand with your grip and your eyes and your trigger pull.   Notice the YOUR.  No on else can do it for you.

With practice, as your groups shrink, refine your personal zero. left and right, with that gun so that your groups are centered with your gun.

Tighten up the group and then worry about how it is centered on the target.

Do you want to burn-up more ammo or less to get this fixed/correct?

1. Inspect the sights to make sure they are centered (most guns should be that way; some out there or not)

2. Get a mentor or instruction. Have them shoot (from a rest) to see if it shoots for them.

3. Review fundamentals of instruction and conduct dry practice every evening for a couple of weeks and try again.
Practice does not make perfect; PERFECT practice makes PERFECT (or at least much better).

10-4 ill give it a few weeks as is and see if i cant tighten up that group more first, then ill go from there.

It's you, not the sights.  Almost always.

I know, I still do it too when I speed up.  Dry fire, focusing on your finger being perfectly perpendicular to the trigger face WHEN THE TRIGGER BREAKS.  That is how you 'burn in' the motor pattern for a proper trigger press.  Live fire tests your programming.  Most people (me) revert to snatching shots low-left with faster splits.  If you do this, stop and slow to a rhythm that will let you make acceptable groups.

I think dry fire is pretty key to developing handgun skills.

I can't speak for the OP but for myself IT IS ME 99% of the time.

Several years ago, I was shooting at my club when the RO was walking the line making sure everybody was being safe. Well, he saw me examining a target and politely said; "not bad". I bemoaned; "yeah, but it seems EVERY handgun I own shoots low and to the left". He just smiled and said; "well, let me watch you take a few shots". I did and he then had me make a few adjustments to my stance, my trigger finger and my grip, re-evaluating with each minor change. After a few minutes I was placing every shot into the black. He said; "better?" and I replied; "yes much, THANK YOU but now I am going to have to re-adjust a bunch of sights on a bunch of guns probably back to their original factory settings "

I may have missed it in the comments but where were you aiming, how fast were you shooting and what gun are you shooting with?

I'd be worried about groups that size at 30 feet.  It's you, not the sights.  Do a lot of dry fire practice and work on your trigger control.  While I agree that Trijicon HDs aren't ideal for bullseye shooting, I can shoot much tighter groups than that with them, and I am a long way from being an "expert" pistol shooter.  Average at best.