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Posted: 9/6/2014 1:08:05 PM EDT
[#1]
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Since I just got a Glock 20 10mm....one of the first things I noted about the more potent 10mm ammo was that it's not recommended for 1911 style pistols...  ???????????????????? Please pontificate. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 1:17:29 PM EDT
[#2]
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How couldn't it be? Literally everything is bigger/thicker/stronger, from the barrel hood to the frame itself even. (I own both and have compared them side by side quite a bit) Not trying to be argumentative, you very well may know of a "weak point" in the system that I wasn't aware of. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Between the two I would say the HK USP 45  That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. I'd say HK Mark23 - probably the strongest .45 platform! It's not stronger than the hk45 How couldn't it be? Literally everything is bigger/thicker/stronger, from the barrel hood to the frame itself even. (I own both and have compared them side by side quite a bit) Not trying to be argumentative, you very well may know of a "weak point" in the system that I wasn't aware of. Bigger, thicker, etc doesn't mean anything. The hi point would rule them all if that were the case. The mk23 is a 25 year old design that serves as the prototype for the USP line, that was originally designed to shoot ball ammo through a giant suppressor while being maintained by the most flexible and skilled small arms maintenance in the DoD. The HK45 is a much newer gun designed to shoot modern law enforcement ammo unsuppressed and take a shitload of abuse. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trolling or whatever you want to call it. The VP9 thread is fun though. That's not a bad gun for HK's Value line |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 10:31:54 PM EDT
[#3]
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I have owned both. I would take a good 1911 over the Glock 21 any day. +1 This,I have a 1942 1911A1 with a ramped barrel that will feed anything and I have put thousands of rounds thru it over 30+ years. Never a failure to fire or eject. I owned a Glock once and don't see it as being any better than my 1911. |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 1:50:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bigger, thicker, etc doesn't mean anything. The hi point would rule them all if that were the case. The mk23 is a 25 year old design that serves as the prototype for the USP line, that was originally designed to shoot ball ammo through a giant suppressor while being maintained by the most flexible and skilled small arms maintenance in the DoD. The HK45 is a much newer gun designed to shoot modern law enforcement ammo unsuppressed and take a shitload of abuse. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trolling or whatever you want to call it. The VP9 thread is fun though. That's not a bad gun for HK's Value line |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 2:00:57 AM EDT
[#5]
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The design age of the HK45 VS the MK23 really doesn't matter in regards to which is stronger. If the HK45 is stronger why is the MK23 rated by HK to fire 45 super out of the box while the HK45 is not? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Bigger, thicker, etc doesn't mean anything. The hi point would rule them all if that were the case. The mk23 is a 25 year old design that serves as the prototype for the USP line, that was originally designed to shoot ball ammo through a giant suppressor while being maintained by the most flexible and skilled small arms maintenance in the DoD. The HK45 is a much newer gun designed to shoot modern law enforcement ammo unsuppressed and take a shitload of abuse. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trolling or whatever you want to call it. The VP9 thread is fun though. That's not a bad gun for HK's Value line Isn't it the other way around? |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 10:53:28 AM EDT
[#6]
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Isn't it the other way around? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Bigger, thicker, etc doesn't mean anything. The hi point would rule them all if that were the case. The mk23 is a 25 year old design that serves as the prototype for the USP line, that was originally designed to shoot ball ammo through a giant suppressor while being maintained by the most flexible and skilled small arms maintenance in the DoD. The HK45 is a much newer gun designed to shoot modern law enforcement ammo unsuppressed and take a shitload of abuse. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trolling or whatever you want to call it. The VP9 thread is fun though. That's not a bad gun for HK's Value line Isn't it the other way around? I have no idea on 45 Super, but it does say under the respective pistol's "read more" tab on HK's website, that the Mark 23 has over a 30,000 rd service life with +p ammo, where the HK45 has the same minimum 20,000 service life (does not specify +p) as the USP series. If you know of some kind of actual data that shows the Mark 23 being weaker than the HK45 I'd like to see it, because every thing I've ever read (and saw myself) seems to indicate the opposite. |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 11:03:37 AM EDT
[#7]
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That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Between the two I would say the HK USP 45 That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. From a warranty stand point is H&K good with this ? |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 2:10:32 PM EDT
[#8]
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From a warranty stand point is H&K good with this ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Between the two I would say the HK USP 45 That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. From a warranty stand point is H&K good with this ? That is my understanding, though as someone else pointed out Springfield is also ok with it. However, with the USP's dual spring recoil/buffer system, your hands and the frame should also be good with it. Though that is just hearsay, I have yet to run any super through mine as I don't have the setup for reloading yet (in process) and the super rounds on the market are quite pricey. |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 3:56:22 PM EDT
[#9]
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That is my understanding, though as someone else pointed out Springfield is also ok with it. However, with the USP's dual spring recoil/buffer system, your hands and the frame should also be good with it. Though that is just hearsay, I have yet to run any super through mine as I don't have the setup for reloading yet (in process) and the super rounds on the market are quite pricey. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Between the two I would say the HK USP 45 That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. From a warranty stand point is H&K good with this ? That is my understanding, though as someone else pointed out Springfield is also ok with it. However, with the USP's dual spring recoil/buffer system, your hands and the frame should also be good with it. Though that is just hearsay, I have yet to run any super through mine as I don't have the setup for reloading yet (in process) and the super rounds on the market are quite pricey. In the USP manual they specifically say the USP is good to go with hot loads. It's not hearsay 
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Posted: 9/7/2014 4:36:48 PM EDT
[#10]
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yup... you heard me.... OBSOLETE what can the 45 do better than a smaller round (ie 9mm) with current bullet technology? Nothing but that's another topic and not what the OP asked. So feel free to ask me anything on a PM  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Glock for actual combat applications. Much more reliable than a 1911 1911 for target shooting. Hard to beat the trigger on a 1911. with that said the 45ACP is an obsolete round but if I had to pick it would depend on the use. LOL yup... you heard me.... OBSOLETE what can the 45 do better than a smaller round (ie 9mm) with current bullet technology? Nothing but that's another topic and not what the OP asked. So feel free to ask me anything on a PM The .45ACP can punch a bigger hole than a smaller round. After all, it is kind of silly to have to shoot more than once.... |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 5:29:24 PM EDT
[#11]
I know which one is less expensive, will eat just about anything you feed it, and factory repairs ranging from free to about 50.00 if you mess up the frame. And its not a 1911.
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Posted: 9/7/2014 5:57:27 PM EDT
[#12]
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The .45ACP can punch a bigger hole than a smaller round. After all, it is kind of silly to have to shoot more than once.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Glock for actual combat applications. Much more reliable than a 1911 1911 for target shooting. Hard to beat the trigger on a 1911. with that said the 45ACP is an obsolete round but if I had to pick it would depend on the use. LOL yup... you heard me.... OBSOLETE what can the 45 do better than a smaller round (ie 9mm) with current bullet technology? Nothing but that's another topic and not what the OP asked. So feel free to ask me anything on a PM The .45ACP can punch a bigger hole than a smaller round. After all, it is kind of silly to have to shoot more than once.... Right, because an extra 1/8 of an inch expansion has more knockdown power and helps ensure a debilitating wound whereas an .850 9mm projectile will cause very little soft tissue trauma. Plus the whopping .13" larger diameter in an expanded 45 would ensure full energy dump and hydrostatic shock. 
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Posted: 9/7/2014 10:56:32 PM EDT
[#13]
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In the USP manual they specifically say the USP is good to go with hot loads. It's not hearsay http://s9.postimg.org/jwu6javlr/USP_P.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Between the two I would say the HK USP 45 That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. From a warranty stand point is H&K good with this ? That is my understanding, though as someone else pointed out Springfield is also ok with it. However, with the USP's dual spring recoil/buffer system, your hands and the frame should also be good with it. Though that is just hearsay, I have yet to run any super through mine as I don't have the setup for reloading yet (in process) and the super rounds on the market are quite pricey. In the USP manual they specifically say the USP is good to go with hot loads. It's not hearsay http://s9.postimg.org/jwu6javlr/USP_P.jpg +P+ is not .45Super |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 10:56:44 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 9/7/2014 11:45:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Either
I would rate them both as being a good choice for high round counts. I've had many years of shooting tons of IPSC with 1911's and 2011's,....A quality 1911 will run and run a long long time with little maintenance, changing springs, keeping it clean, etc. Both glock and 1911's can occasionally have minor trouble like broken extractors, etc. Glock is like lego's, they just snap together...... and a 1911 requires more hand fitting, and tuning to run right, but they can be a lot more reliable than ARFCOM gives them credit for. A quality well tuned 1911 is a wonderful thing 
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Posted: 9/8/2014 12:03:46 AM EDT
[#16]
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yup... you heard me.... OBSOLETE what can the 45 do better than a smaller round (ie 9mm) with current bullet technology?... I've never hunted or been attacked by ballistic gelatin, but I've done a shitload of deer hunting with handguns. 357 mag 45ACP 45SUPER 44 mag I can tell you this . . . 45ACP Winchester Ranger +p 230 and my 45SUPER handloads ( 230gr gold-dot at 1150fps) do a hell of a lot more damage to large midwestern deer than a hot loaded 158gr 357, . . . . . which is more than your 9mm. Seems like everybody on ARFCOM thinks the 9mm is as effective as the 45ACP, but my experience has not bore that out. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 4:26:37 AM EDT
[#17]
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Right, because an extra 1/8 of an inch expansion has more knockdown power and helps ensure a debilitating wound whereas an .850 9mm projectile will cause very little soft tissue trauma. Plus the whopping .13" larger diameter in an expanded 45 would ensure full energy dump and hydrostatic shock.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Glock for actual combat applications. Much more reliable than a 1911 1911 for target shooting. Hard to beat the trigger on a 1911. with that said the 45ACP is an obsolete round but if I had to pick it would depend on the use. LOL yup... you heard me.... OBSOLETE what can the 45 do better than a smaller round (ie 9mm) with current bullet technology? Nothing but that's another topic and not what the OP asked. So feel free to ask me anything on a PM The .45ACP can punch a bigger hole than a smaller round. After all, it is kind of silly to have to shoot more than once.... Right, because an extra 1/8 of an inch expansion has more knockdown power and helps ensure a debilitating wound whereas an .850 9mm projectile will cause very little soft tissue trauma. Plus the whopping .13" larger diameter in an expanded 45 would ensure full energy dump and hydrostatic shock.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile .45 doesn't do a damn thing that 9mm can't do... EXCEPT: potentially better intermediate barrier penetration. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 6:43:37 AM EDT
[#18]
I can tell you that my stainless commander 1911 survived what we will call a" test load" of 8gr of Bullseye powder under a 230gr lead round nose
It hurt, but all the components were still serviceable and usable and has had several thousands of rounds thru it since the "test" only replacing the recoil spring. I have no idea how a glock .45 acp would have handle it, but a few glock friends suggested that they were not willing to try it |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 7:52:00 AM EDT
[#19]
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Bigger, thicker, etc doesn't mean anything. Did a chick tell ya that?
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Posted: 9/8/2014 8:26:13 AM EDT
[#20]
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I can tell you that my stainless commander 1911 survived what we will call a" test load" of 8gr of Bullseye powder under a 230gr lead round nose
It hurt, but all the components were still serviceable and usable and has had several thousands of rounds thru it since the "test" only replacing the recoil spring. I have no idea how a glock .45 acp would have handle it, but a few glock friends suggested that they were not willing to try it HELL NO. Unsupported chambers are a no-go with loads like that. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 10:07:10 PM EDT
[#21]
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.45 doesn't do a damn thing that 9mm can't do... EXCEPT: potentially better intermediate barrier penetration. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Right, because an extra 1/8 of an inch expansion has more knockdown power and helps ensure a debilitating wound whereas an .850 9mm projectile will cause very little soft tissue trauma. Plus the whopping .13" larger diameter in an expanded 45 would ensure full energy dump and hydrostatic shock.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile .45 doesn't do a damn thing that 9mm can't do... EXCEPT: potentially better intermediate barrier penetration. You need to get your sarcasm meter re-calibrated. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 10:56:02 PM EDT
[#22]
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I have owned both. I would take a good 1911 over the Glock 21 any day. This. It's takes a junky 1911 to be outperformed by a Glock 21. If I was on a $500 budget... Yeah, I would buy a Glock. If I had a grand in my pocket, I'd buy a 5" Colt that will walk all over a shitty Glock 21 for at least a hundred years or so... |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 12:11:00 AM EDT
[#23]
Not trying to be the devil's advocate, but wasn't the G21 and G30 based off of the G20 and G29, respectively? Built around the 10mm, and can handle higher pressures?
If I'm wrong, please let me know, or fill in any gaps, please. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 1:15:42 AM EDT
[#24]
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You need to get your sarcasm meter re-calibrated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Right, because an extra 1/8 of an inch expansion has more knockdown power and helps ensure a debilitating wound whereas an .850 9mm projectile will cause very little soft tissue trauma. Plus the whopping .13" larger diameter in an expanded 45 would ensure full energy dump and hydrostatic shock.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile .45 doesn't do a damn thing that 9mm can't do... EXCEPT: potentially better intermediate barrier penetration. You need to get your sarcasm meter re-calibrated. I was actually agreeing with you (not with your sarcastic reply), and pointing out something that I don't see mentioned that often. |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 7:44:17 AM EDT
[#25]
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.45 doesn't do a damn thing that 9mm can't do... EXCEPT: potentially better intermediate barrier penetration. Only if that barrier is brittle, otherwise the result is very different. http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=10838,DATABASE=41317657 |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 4:26:52 PM EDT
[#26]
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Either I would rate them both as being a good choice for high round counts. I've had many years of shooting tons of IPSC with 1911's and 2011's,....A quality 1911 will run and run a long long time with little maintenance, changing springs, keeping it clean, etc. Both glock and 1911's can occasionally have minor trouble like broken extractors, etc. Glock is like lego's, they just snap together...... and a 1911 requires more hand fitting, and tuning to run right, but they can be a lot more reliable than ARFCOM gives them credit for. A quality well tuned 1911 is a wonderful thing <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derek45/media/1911/1911SpringfieldArmoryIPSC.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/1911SpringfieldArmoryIPSC.jpg</a> <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derek45/media/1911/IMGP4267.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/IMGP4267.jpg</a> AGREED! I had 5 times more problems out of a particular G27 I ended up selling than I have ever out of my "NM" prefix Springfield Loaded that I've converted to .45Super! BTW: What trigger is that in your Springfield? That looks bad azz and appears to be a comfortable trigger... |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 4:27:51 PM EDT
[#27]
When it comes to the creation of holes the diameter does not tell the entire story. The area is a function of the diameter squared so a mere 1 mm change in diameter (9mm to 10 mm) creates a 15 mm^2 increase in area. .
.40 will create a hole with an area 27% larger than the 9 mm and a .45 will create a 63.6% larger area hole. Percentage increase in frontal area from 9 mm .40 S&W +27.0% .45 ACP +63.6% Penetration along with the frontal area determines the volume of destroyed tissue. Considering that modern self defense ammunition can penetrate 12 inches and expand to 1.5 times it's diameter and you use the same penetration for all calibers, you will create the following wound volumes. Caliber - Wound Volume (inch^3) 9 mm - 2.67 40 S&W - 3.40 45 ACP - 4.37 |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 4:34:05 PM EDT
[#28]
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When it comes to the creation of holes the diameter does not tell the entire story. The area is a function of the diameter squared so a mere 1 mm change in diameter (9mm to 10 mm) creates a 15 mm^2 increase in area. . .40 will create a hole with an area 27% larger than the 9 mm and a .45 will create a 63.6% larger area hole. Percentage increase in frontal area from 9 mm .40 S&W +27.0% .45 ACP +63.6% Penetration along with the frontal area determines the volume of destroyed tissue. Considering that modern self defense ammunition can penetrate 12 inches and expand to 1.5 times it's diameter and you use the same penetration for all calibers, you will create the following wound volumes. Caliber - Wound Volume (inch^3) 9 mm - 2.67 40 S&W - 3.40 45 ACP - 4.37 AF as usual, your spot on brother! This is the most solid and information post of the thread. A big thumbs up! |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 4:43:47 PM EDT
[#29]
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I didn't assume anything, the first time I've ever heard of .45 Super was in this thread and a member saying HK says you can. Do you have any data such as ballistic gell and a chronograph, some targets for grouping results and distances? I am most certainly interested, sir. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Between the two I would say the HK USP 45 That's what I came here to say. If you want to run hot loads, run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in. Anyone here know if .45 Super is better than 10mm? If .45 Super is the top dog, I will sell off my G20 in a heartbeat. Your wrong in assuming that only "one" manufacturer rates their .45's for shooting .45Super... Springfield 1911's are rated to shoot .45Super out of the box too, and I most certainly do shoot Buffalo Bore 255 grain lead hard cast truncated cone rounds at a cunt hair over 1,100 fps: out of a SA 1911 "Loaded"... It's certainly a "hot" load and definitely kicks 10mm's ass... It's also the most accurate load I've shot in any .45acp/.45Super semi auto pistol that hits hard and deep. I use it for my "Mountain Gun" in Highlands NC on the Nantahala Trail and for kayak fishing at our mountain home that backs up to it... 10+1 CMC power mag in the pistol with to (8) round reloads on the belt is a solid choice for a woods gun... Do you have any data such as ballistic gell and a chronograph, some targets for grouping results and distances? I am most certainly interested, sir. Easy there big guy, easy. I meant to quote "andrevski762" with the "run the one the manufacturer is even ok with running .45 Super in" quote I made in bold. My apologies. Do I have ballistic testing, ummm no I'm not set up for that? Distances were 20 yards. I didn't take pics of the chrono, geez. And I certainly don't keep targets from 6 months ago. Buffalo Bore has the MV specs for this particular round on their site and other posters in the review posted similar chrono findings. The .45 Super round I referenced with the chrono number, bullet grain weight, and being a Hard Cast bullet is a hard one to beat. You can't load a round that heavy with that kind of velocity in a 10mm due to the case volume parameters. |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 4:53:52 PM EDT
[#30]
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I too have personally seen 1911s stand up to double charges that would have destroyed a Glock. For equal quality, the Glock is less expensive. There is a place for both guns in my safe. I was one of the guys that had a box of the Federal Personal Defense loads, (comes in a box with blue background) that was recalled by Federal for the wrong powder being used. I keep all my boxes with the Lot Number at home and use MTM cases for going to the range. I saw the recall warning after I shot the ammo up. Upon shooting this ammo, it felt like I was shooting a very stout 10mm load with sparks coming out of the muzzle that stayed lit until they floated to the ground. I had a blue bruise in the palm of my hand from the curved mainspring housing. The Springfield Mil-Spec handled them well. I'm not too sure a polymer would have held up to the abuse as well. That said, I wouldn't dream of NOT having my M&P's. |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 5:02:24 PM EDT
[#31]
I have a buddy that had a .45acp glock and a case blew out where the chamber was not supported ant it destroyed the pistol.
I had a similar experience with a 1911, it blew out the magazine and did no damage to the gun, I field stripped it and checked it out, put it back together and finished the match, I shot that pistol for a number of years after that, I have no idea how many rounds that I fired through that pistol after that. A couple of years ago I rebuilt the top end to make it more accurate. I do not own a Glock nor will I, |
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Posted: 9/13/2014 7:09:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Just my .02:
Everyone should have a good shooting 1911 and a glock 19. |
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Posted: 9/13/2014 8:44:30 AM EDT
[#33]
Longevity without parts replacement or repair - Glock
However I find this argument to be rather retarded considering the two platforms are polar opposites |
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Posted: 9/13/2014 6:21:26 PM EDT
[#34]
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BTW: What trigger is that in your Springfield? That looks bad azz and appears to be a comfortable trigger... That's an old pic, my mid 1990's IPSC blaster.....back then I used a DLASK ultra-light http://dlaskarms.com/products/1911-ultra-light-titanium-magnesium-adjustable-trigger 
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Posted: 9/14/2014 5:33:10 PM EDT
[#35]
How many 1911 kaaboooms have you seen?? Seen a few glocks blow up.
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Posted: 9/16/2014 7:40:46 PM EDT
[#36]
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How many 1911 kaaboooms have you seen?? Seen a few glocks blow up. You can google quite a few pictures of kaboomed 1911s; that being said I'd rather have a hot round self destruct in a steel framed pistol than in any with a plastic frame. It all depends on people's definition of strong. A pistol able to accumulate the highest possible service life round count, or the one that is less likely to disintegrate in your hand in the event of an ammo kaboom and that will resume shooting as soon as you replace the magazine that has blown out by the blast? ETA, I own polymer pistols and trust them implicitly. |
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