User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 7/19/2014 4:12:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. If the Feeb had not mucked things up with their light load, this would be the expected performance for all 10mm. These were from a 5" test barrel, so you would expect to be 50-100fps slower from a typical G20. Federal has a new factory load,180gr at 1275fps, that fits right in with the Norma power scale above. I plan to chronological some P10T1 soon. I don't stand next to people with self described hot or nuclear loads. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2014 5:40:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. The Norma loads were hot, they may have been the standard, but they were still hot and not to mention very erratic and not much good at being consistent. Now I'm not sure how "mild" your mild 10mm is, it all depends, but a "warm" safe .40 is easily into 10mm territory. No, not equal to the 10mm overall, but using powder such as Longshot, a G23 will shoot a 180gr bullet to around 1200 fps, not bad from a 4" barrel and according to Hodgdon is within spec. Longshot from a G20 using a 180gr was getting me around 1180-1270 fps, but it's burning more powder and is using a longer barrel too. If you compare these, the 10mm is not only slightly higher pressure (i.e. slightly "warmer"), but it's not really that much faster. If you look at much of the load data out there, the 10mm only shows to be 100-125 fps faster despite running at higher pressures and using a longer barrel than the majority .40 loads. Equalize pressure and barrel length and the 10mm is less than 100 fps from a .40 S&W, even less than 75 fps at times, again considering equal pressures and equal barrel lenghts with same powder/bullet combo. In what world does 100 fps (in a handgun no less) make any marked difference in performance? Sure places like UW and BB load the 10mm hot, but they just load it hotter than their .40 because "hot" 10mm sells, and they want your money. The .45 Super is a beast, and comparitively, over the years I've shot warm 10mm's from a KKM G20 running a 180gr to over 1350 and a 200gr to just over 1300 both using over book max loads...well over max, but the Super using Starline brass (about the only available and according to Starline is the same strength as their 460 Rowland 40K PSI brass) can shoot a 185gr to 1600 fps, a 250gr JHP to over 1300 fps or a 300gr LFNGC hardcast to over 1150 fps, all from a 5" barrel. In other words, a .45 Super can mimick the 460 Rowland (but to be fair, at those speeds you have to use a compensator). It's not that I dislike the 10mm, it's just that it's not the most powerful Glock by a good margin, heck loaded warm it's only got about 100 fps over a warm .40. I'm not saying the 10mm isn't versitile because it is to a degree, but why people think the 10mm is untouchabe is beyond me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
To me that's the delimma with the 10mm. Really what most call "standard" 10mm is loaded pretty damn hot. Loads for UW, BB and DT aren't standard, neither were the original Noma loads. No they're loaded hot, and very hot at that. I say that because if there's no real desire to run the 10mm warm, then why bother? At that point the .40 and .45 are cheaper to shoot, just as effective and if you like the 1911 platform and want more bang, load up some .45 Super. I know a lot like the 10mm, but try as I might I just can't find a use for it. The original norma loads were at the time the only 10 mm Auto ammo in existence, so they most certainly were THE standard, and rightfully still what all 10 mm loads are measured against. I load my 10 mm "mild", which means still hotter than .40 can ever do safely, and I'm just a magazine change away from hotter than .45 Super can ever do safely. Nope. The Norma loads were hot, they may have been the standard, but they were still hot and not to mention very erratic and not much good at being consistent. Now I'm not sure how "mild" your mild 10mm is, it all depends, but a "warm" safe .40 is easily into 10mm territory. No, not equal to the 10mm overall, but using powder such as Longshot, a G23 will shoot a 180gr bullet to around 1200 fps, not bad from a 4" barrel and according to Hodgdon is within spec. Longshot from a G20 using a 180gr was getting me around 1180-1270 fps, but it's burning more powder and is using a longer barrel too. If you compare these, the 10mm is not only slightly higher pressure (i.e. slightly "warmer"), but it's not really that much faster. If you look at much of the load data out there, the 10mm only shows to be 100-125 fps faster despite running at higher pressures and using a longer barrel than the majority .40 loads. Equalize pressure and barrel length and the 10mm is less than 100 fps from a .40 S&W, even less than 75 fps at times, again considering equal pressures and equal barrel lenghts with same powder/bullet combo. In what world does 100 fps (in a handgun no less) make any marked difference in performance? Sure places like UW and BB load the 10mm hot, but they just load it hotter than their .40 because "hot" 10mm sells, and they want your money. The .45 Super is a beast, and comparitively, over the years I've shot warm 10mm's from a KKM G20 running a 180gr to over 1350 and a 200gr to just over 1300 both using over book max loads...well over max, but the Super using Starline brass (about the only available and according to Starline is the same strength as their 460 Rowland 40K PSI brass) can shoot a 185gr to 1600 fps, a 250gr JHP to over 1300 fps or a 300gr LFNGC hardcast to over 1150 fps, all from a 5" barrel. In other words, a .45 Super can mimick the 460 Rowland (but to be fair, at those speeds you have to use a compensator). It's not that I dislike the 10mm, it's just that it's not the most powerful Glock by a good margin, heck loaded warm it's only got about 100 fps over a warm .40. I'm not saying the 10mm isn't versitile because it is to a degree, but why people think the 10mm is untouchabe is beyond me. by my definition a "warm" load is one that falls smack in the middle of the low and high data. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2014 8:09:15 PM EDT
[#3]
The strongest regular production factory semi autos are probably the 3rd gen S&W and the Glock 20/29. If you buy an early G20 and plan to reload the cases you'll want to put either a later model G20 barrel or aftermarket barrel in it, the early models were lacking chamber support and were hard on cases.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2014 8:14:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. The Norma loads were hot, they may have been the standard, but they were still hot and not to mention very erratic and not much good at being consistent. Now I'm not sure how "mild" your mild 10mm is, it all depends, but a "warm" safe .40 is easily into 10mm territory. No, not equal to the 10mm overall, but using powder such as Longshot, a G23 will shoot a 180gr bullet to around 1200 fps, not bad from a 4" barrel and according to Hodgdon is within spec. Longshot from a G20 using a 180gr was getting me around 1180-1270 fps, but it's burning more powder and is using a longer barrel too. If you compare these, the 10mm is not only slightly higher pressure (i.e. slightly "warmer"), but it's not really that much faster. If you look at much of the load data out there, the 10mm only shows to be 100-125 fps faster despite running at higher pressures and using a longer barrel than the majority .40 loads. Equalize pressure and barrel length and the 10mm is less than 100 fps from a .40 S&W, even less than 75 fps at times, again considering equal pressures and equal barrel lenghts with same powder/bullet combo. In what world does 100 fps (in a handgun no less) make any marked difference in performance? Sure places like UW and BB load the 10mm hot, but they just load it hotter than their .40 because "hot" 10mm sells, and they want your money. The .45 Super is a beast, and comparitively, over the years I've shot warm 10mm's from a KKM G20 running a 180gr to over 1350 and a 200gr to just over 1300 both using over book max loads...well over max, but the Super using Starline brass (about the only available and according to Starline is the same strength as their 460 Rowland 40K PSI brass) can shoot a 185gr to 1600 fps, a 250gr JHP to over 1300 fps or a 300gr LFNGC hardcast to over 1150 fps, all from a 5" barrel. In other words, a .45 Super can mimick the 460 Rowland (but to be fair, at those speeds you have to use a compensator). It's not that I dislike the 10mm, it's just that it's not the most powerful Glock by a good margin, heck loaded warm it's only got about 100 fps over a warm .40. I'm not saying the 10mm isn't versitile because it is to a degree, but why people think the 10mm is untouchabe is beyond me. Good grief, what a load of bullshit. I don't even know where to begin so I won't bother.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2014 9:01:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. Blue Dot will get you within 50 fps of those velocities without exceeding SAAMI specifications (which btw is 4000 psi higher than the European C.I.P. spec.) If you actually want to meet those numbers you are going to have to exceed both the US and European pressure specifications for the cartridge. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2014 9:14:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Blue Dot will get you within 50 fps of those velocities without exceeding SAAMI specifications (which btw is 4000 psi higher than the European C.I.P. spec.) If you actually want to meet those numbers you are going to have to exceed both the US and European pressure specifications for the cartridge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. Blue Dot will get you within 50 fps of those velocities without exceeding SAAMI specifications (which btw is 4000 psi higher than the European C.I.P. spec.) If you actually want to meet those numbers you are going to have to exceed both the US and European pressure specifications for the cartridge. Why to crop my post to make it appear to suggest something different than what it meant. Try it again maybe? Quoted:
Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. If the Feeb had not mucked things up with their light load, this would be the expected performance for all 10mm. These were from a 5" test barrel, so you would expect to be 50-100fps slower from a typical G20. Federal has a new factory load,180gr at 1275fps, that fits right in with the Norma power scale above. I plan to chronological some P10T1 soon. I don't stand next to people with self described hot or nuclear loads. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2014 4:12:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good grief, what a load of bullshit. I don't even know where to begin so I won't bother. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nope. The Norma loads were hot, they may have been the standard, but they were still hot and not to mention very erratic and not much good at being consistent. Now I'm not sure how "mild" your mild 10mm is, it all depends, but a "warm" safe .40 is easily into 10mm territory. No, not equal to the 10mm overall, but using powder such as Longshot, a G23 will shoot a 180gr bullet to around 1200 fps, not bad from a 4" barrel and according to Hodgdon is within spec. Longshot from a G20 using a 180gr was getting me around 1180-1270 fps, but it's burning more powder and is using a longer barrel too. If you compare these, the 10mm is not only slightly higher pressure (i.e. slightly "warmer"), but it's not really that much faster. If you look at much of the load data out there, the 10mm only shows to be 100-125 fps faster despite running at higher pressures and using a longer barrel than the majority .40 loads. Equalize pressure and barrel length and the 10mm is less than 100 fps from a .40 S&W, even less than 75 fps at times, again considering equal pressures and equal barrel lenghts with same powder/bullet combo. In what world does 100 fps (in a handgun no less) make any marked difference in performance? Sure places like UW and BB load the 10mm hot, but they just load it hotter than their .40 because "hot" 10mm sells, and they want your money. The .45 Super is a beast, and comparitively, over the years I've shot warm 10mm's from a KKM G20 running a 180gr to over 1350 and a 200gr to just over 1300 both using over book max loads...well over max, but the Super using Starline brass (about the only available and according to Starline is the same strength as their 460 Rowland 40K PSI brass) can shoot a 185gr to 1600 fps, a 250gr JHP to over 1300 fps or a 300gr LFNGC hardcast to over 1150 fps, all from a 5" barrel. In other words, a .45 Super can mimick the 460 Rowland (but to be fair, at those speeds you have to use a compensator). It's not that I dislike the 10mm, it's just that it's not the most powerful Glock by a good margin, heck loaded warm it's only got about 100 fps over a warm .40. I'm not saying the 10mm isn't versitile because it is to a degree, but why people think the 10mm is untouchabe is beyond me. Good grief, what a load of bullshit. I don't even know where to begin so I won't bother. No kidding.That's a whole lot of wrong in one post. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2014 5:54:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. If the Feeb had not mucked things up with their light load, this would be the expected performance for all 10mm. These were from a 5" test barrel, so you would expect to be 50-100fps slower from a typical G20. Federal has a new factory load,180gr at 1275fps, that fits right in with the Norma power scale above. I plan to chronological some P10T1 soon. I don't stand next to people with self described hot or nuclear loads. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
... Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. If the Feeb had not mucked things up with their light load, this would be the expected performance for all 10mm. These were from a 5" test barrel, so you would expect to be 50-100fps slower from a typical G20. Federal has a new factory load,180gr at 1275fps, that fits right in with the Norma power scale above. I plan to chronological some P10T1 soon. I don't stand next to people with self described hot or nuclear loads. Especially with "hot" .40 Some knucklehead left a bag of about 200 hand loaded .40's at the range this winter with ".40s&w HOT!" Emphasis on "hot". Just sitting on the counter for anyone to take. I had bad visions of Joe Blow showing up with a Glock 23 and proceeding to blow half his hand off. Took the bag home and pulled the projectiles. Fuck that. I don't even own a gun in 40. I should had measured the loads and seen how "hot" they were. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2014 8:38:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Blue Dot will get you within 50 fps of those velocities without exceeding SAAMI specifications (which btw is 4000 psi higher than the European C.I.P. spec.) If you actually want to meet those numbers you are going to have to exceed both the US and European pressure specifications for the cartridge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Norma's loads; 200gr at 1200fps, 170gr at 1300fps, and 165gr at 1400fps are the standard for 10mm performance. Blue Dot will get you within 50 fps of those velocities without exceeding SAAMI specifications (which btw is 4000 psi higher than the European C.I.P. spec.) If you actually want to meet those numbers you are going to have to exceed both the US and European pressure specifications for the cartridge. Underwood meets those numbers inside SAAMI specs,dancing on the hairy edge I'm sure,but within spec.I'm pretty sure he uses 800X in most of the 10mm they sell. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2014 10:15:24 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glock. +1 |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2014 1:14:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The .45 Super is a beast, and comparitively, over the years I've shot warm 10mm's from a KKM G20 running a 180gr to over 1350 and a 200gr to just over 1300 both using over book max loads...well over max, but the Super using Starline brass (about the only available and according to Starline is the same strength as their 460 Rowland 40K PSI brass) can shoot a 185gr to 1600 fps, a 250gr JHP to over 1300 fps or a 300gr LFNGC hardcast to over 1150 fps, all from a 5" barrel. In other words, a .45 Super can mimick the 460 Rowland (but to be fair, at those speeds you have to use a compensator). That's why I wrote safely. When I shoot a published or lab tested max load with my 10 mm I know it's safe because my pistol was proofed at 130% of that maximum pressure, an empirically established safety margin to account for all pressure-increasing tolerances falling together. When you load a .45 Super to .460 Rowland pressures you have over 40% overpressure. It will probably go fine an unknown number of times, but I sure don't want to be around the first time it doesn't go well. Pressure maxima exist for a reason, you're begging for injuries. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
