Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:


That is not information. As I've provided just a few links that prove that Marshall & Sanow flat out fabricated the garbage they put in those books. Ayoob isnt one to be cited either.
I havent been a member of internet gun forums all that long...actually, my join date here is when I began learning more than I could find in books. Yes, I realize that just because its written, (either here in a book), doesnt make it true


It doesnt matter that you have loaned your copy of that book out. What is in that book is false.



http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=26

I have. No response.
Kudos to you for trying at least. Most wouldnt. They'd stop with just bad mouthing others on the internet.


I dont carry a recorder when I speak with TX DPS Troopers and Rangers. How many have you spoken with? The video I mentioned is no longer on Youtube, that or my Youtube search skills suck. The poster of that video was "Toyota4x4" or something like that. That said, the bullet TX DPS was using was a 230gr JHP. I have been told it was Federal Hi-Shok, but have no absolute source on that. They now use 230gr Speer GDHP in those pistols that are chambered in .45acp.
Last Texas PDS officer I spoke with was in 1996. I had just gotten out of the Corps and was driving back home to St Louis. He felt I was driving a bit fast, and that's how we met. At the time, trying to talk my way out of a ticket was more important that discussing what weapon and round he was carrying. Seeing as how I'm a cop here in StL, I probably wont get a chance to speak with one in person for quite awhile.


Its my pleasure. Thats what I hope to do here, inform. There are maybe another 5-8 links to papers destroying Marshall & Sanow credibility. Note, that while I do not accept what was put out, I still find Evan Marshall to be a nice, pleasant man.
I've never met Marshall, Sanow, or Mas Ayoob. I have however spoken with him online. He seems nice enough.
I do thank you for the links and I will continue to research more.


Not really. The IWBA had a passion for wounds ballistics. The IWBA was composed of trauma surgeons, medical examiners, police officers, and military officials from all over the world. All sharing what they had seen in hospitals, mourges, on the streets, on the battlefields, and in simulated testing. Some of the people you mention as associates were not with IWBA at the time of their papers. Also, the mathematical dept at the University of Tennessee had no connection to Marshall & Sanow or the IWBA. However when all the Marshall & Sanow books were brought to their dept for review, they found it impossible to draw the conclusions that M&S where drawing.

I did a search on Duncan McPherson after your forst post, (author of 2nd link you posted against M&S). One of the links pulled up a review filled an amazing amount of praise for him by none other than Dr Fackler...made me more than suspicious about McPherson's objectivity. Univ of Tenn is obviously a different critter all together.



I dont know where you are getting the "axe to grind" issue. All the IWBA cared about was truth in wounds ballistics. At the time of those publication, Dr Fackler (at the time Lt Col USA) was being labeled as a"jello junkie" by M&S and Ayoob (who is responsible for getting Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow together and telling them what he wanted), while not mentioning his work in Vietnam as a surgeon.

The axe to grind issue comes from the venom he showed in attacking their findings. I'm not saying it wasnt deserved, but you have to understand that he begins to distort his appearance of objectivity by making personal attacks in his findings. I dont know if you are or were LE, but when I get two people telling me the other did something, generally the one who appears to be the most calm and least hysterical gets listened to first. Not saying Fackler was hysterical, but you get the point. Until I can wade through the statements made by both, the one who appears to be the most calm and collected and states the facts gets listened to first...I've been wrong before, and it appears that this is one those times as well. Hope that makes sense....might not come off over the computer screen as well its meant.



The problem is they dont. They have published misleading, and down right false anecdotes in their books (I mentioned earlier the Amarillo, TX PD and Toledo, OH PD being the most disgusting of the claims). When members of each of those depts wrote to the editors, they were brushed aside.
Then that's just wrong, no two ways about it.



Penetration is pushed as most critical because without it you have nothing. Which has a better chance of incapacitating a bad guy, a shot that stops 2 inches from the heart, or one that severs it? Obviously the latter. The only guarantees in stopping a bad guy are a CNS hit or exsanguination. the former does it quickly. "Lack of penetration gets good guys killed".

Keep in mind some things about the structure of the cranial vault. Its made of very strong bone that is angular. Pistol rounds, no matter the caliber, have been known to be deflected off the the skull. An Arlington, TX PD officer was shot in the head a couple of weeks ago, by a badguy. The bullet hit above his right eye, deflected, and exited near his right ear. He's fine.

Penetration is critical, but too much penetration can cause problems too. Otherwise we'd just shoot FMJ.
I'm familiar with human anatomy & physiology. I stumbled in LE work all sorts of bass ackwards...Long story short is that I was intending to be a fire fighter here in StL and was within a few weeks of obtaining my paramedic license when I was contacted by the police department and offered a job. I took it with the intention of doing a year, and then transferring over to the FD, (StL FD gives preferential hiring treatment to city employees...so it made sense to put in an application with them at the time while I was waiting on the FD Hiring Process), two weeks in the academy I was hooked. So I do have a familiarity with human A&P, but I was no doctor nor do I pretend to be.

In this particular case, the shot struck above the left eye at the hairline. It penetrated the skull and caused the suspect to lose conciousness and fall down a flight of stairs. Since the court case is still pending, I will not post anything that might wind up in court somehow. Suffice it to say, I got a very, very good look at the wound and it absolutely penetrated the skull and did not exit nor did it hit anything that shut him down for more than a few seconds. After the trial next month, (assuming it doesnt get pushed back yet again), I will post up an AAR here on ARFcom detailing the shooting and the several mistakes that were made by me and others on the scene in the hopes that they can be avoided by others. If you like, I will IM you when this happens and send a link to the thread.



Here's the problem with that tester, and the tester himself. He doesnt know the difference between a Permanent Crush Cavity(PCC) and the Temporary Stretch Cavity(TSC). The is obvious when he says "Permanent Stretch Cavity". That big area you see is actually the TSC. It is called that for a reason. The reason is that the elasticity of human flesh is enough to overcome pistol TSC. It is not considered a wounding factor at all.

As for the gelatin used, it is not calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. The particular gelatin he used, is used to test the affects of bullets and body armor.

Thank you. I had not known that.



That is a link to an article that includes paragraphs from an article written over ten years ago. It was full of incorrect comments then as it is now. Criticizing "sterile lab tests" which is a criticism of Fackler, without knowing who else or what else has been done is silly and childish.







No, I cannot. I was using the information from Sanow and Marshall, and reports from Mas Ayoob.
Again, I’m unable to locate any place that has compilations of shootings that documents what round, caliber, and weapon they used to do so. If you have access to one I’d love to see it.

I have heard similar things regarding the Glock 357 Sig models. So at least we’ve got that in common….