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Saluki2003
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Posted: 5/16/2012 3:47:57 AM
I'm not trying to start a which is better thread but what I'm wanting to find out is what is the effective range of each caliber? I'd like the comparison to be as equal as possible ie from the same barrel length and FMJ vs FMJ or JHP vs JHP. I'd really like to not get into a which is better and I like this round better because this one sucks kinda thread...I'd just like to see facts or hear real world experiences from you guys. Is it possible to keep a 9mm vs 45 acp thread civil?

Thanks guys!
GunDisaster
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Posted: 5/16/2012 4:56:16 AM
Well since .45acp ammo is heavy and subsonic it's range is limited to 100 yards I would say. While in 9mm most the ammo is supersonic and lighter which lends itself to shooting longer, I would say 200 yards. These pistol calibers are meant for closer ranges though. If I was shooting farther than 50 yards I would much prefer to have a rifle.
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Posted: 5/16/2012 7:34:15 AM

Originally Posted By GunDisaster:
Well since .45acp ammo is heavy and subsonic it's range is limited to 100 yards I would say. While in 9mm most the ammo is supersonic and lighter which lends itself to shooting longer, I would say 200 yards. These pistol calibers are meant for closer ranges though. If I was shooting farther than 50 yards I would much prefer to have a rifle.

100 yards? This gentleman would possibly disagree with that statement

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Alembic
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Posted: 5/16/2012 9:09:36 AM
Effective, to me, would mean have enough energy to incapacitate. Both are minute of man at 50 yards, and at 50 yards, the .45 loses only 30 ft-lb of energy and the 9mm loses 69 ft-lbs of energy.
ops144
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Posted: 5/16/2012 9:14:30 AM
didnt Vickers make hits out to 300 with a .45 or a 9mm? pistol.
tatsngats
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Posted: 5/16/2012 12:13:13 PM
Originally Posted By ops144:
didnt Vickers make hits out to 300 with a .45 or a 9mm? pistol.


It was a 10mm.
Gregory_K
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Posted: 5/16/2012 12:23:44 PM
Originally Posted By Alembic:
Effective, to me, would mean have enough energy to incapacitate. Both are minute of man at 50 yards, and at 50 yards, the .45 loses only 30 ft-lb of energy and the 9mm loses 69 ft-lbs of energy.


IIRC the USA used white pine boards to get a max range. I think 100 yards was it for 45 acp.
Green_Canoe
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Posted: 5/16/2012 2:01:39 PM
[Last Edit: 5/16/2012 2:09:05 PM by Green_Canoe]
How do you want to define max. effective range?

A .45 (230gr HP @ 900fps) has a max point blank range (MPBR) on a 5" dia. vital zone target of 113 yards. At 100 yards it has 335 FPE.

A 9mm (125gr HP @ 1200fps) has a max point blank range on a 5" dia. vital zone target of 139 yards. At 100 yards it has 269 FPE.

A 9mm NATO load (115 FMJ @ 1300fps) bumps the MPBR zero out to 148 yards on a 5" dia. vital zone target. At 100 yards it has 283 FPE.

They drop off very quickly after their MPBR zero. The .45 is -35.7" @200 yards, the 9mm is -29.6" @ 200 yards and the 9mm NATO is -23.6" @ 200 yards.

Since the MPBR is so close and the energies are relatively similar I'd rate them as equivalent.

TUBBY
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Posted: 5/16/2012 2:42:42 PM
Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
How do you want to define max. effective range?

A .45 (230gr HP @ 900fps) has a max point blank range (MPBR) on a 5" dia. vital zone target of 113 yards. At 100 yards it has 335 FPE.

A 9mm (125gr HP @ 1200fps) has a max point blank range on a 5" dia. vital zone target of 139 yards. At 100 yards it has 269 FPE.

A 9mm NATO load (115 FMJ @ 1300fps) bumps the MPBR zero out to 148 yards on a 5" dia. vital zone target. At 100 yards it has 283 FPE.

They drop off very quickly after their MPBR zero. The .45 is -35.7" @200 yards, the 9mm is -29.6" @ 200 yards and the 9mm NATO is -23.6" @ 200 yards.

Since the MPBR is so close and the energies are relatively similar I'd rate them as equivalent.



This. Not enough of a difference in either.

rock71
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Posted: 5/16/2012 2:47:50 PM
[Last Edit: 5/16/2012 5:20:28 PM by rock71]
Doing walkback drills in classes and in training, I have noticed a trend on "max range." With 9mm and .40, a decent shooter can get consistent hits on a steel popper at 120+ yards, standing unsupported. .45 ACP and GAP seem to run out of gas around 90-100 yards. After that, hits get pretty sporadic. Could a great shooter do better? Probably. Does a walkback drill have anything to do with fighting effective range? Probably not. Within 50 yards it doesn't really seem to matter what the caliber is.
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Posted: 5/16/2012 4:33:27 PM
Effective for what?

They're both non-magnum handgun rounds.
Saluki2003
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Posted: 5/16/2012 11:40:31 PM
I guess I'm just wondering at what range the rounds will not be effective at bringing down a person. I'd just like to know out to what range I should train to where the bullet will still be effective to kill.
fastluck13
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Posted: 5/17/2012 12:19:16 AM
Originally Posted By Saluki2003:
I guess I'm just wondering at what range the rounds will not be effective at bringing down a person. I'd just like to know out to what range I should train to where the bullet will still be effective to kill.


Start training at about 7 yards. move out from there. By the time you are good enough for a 100 yard pistol shot you will also have found you will never need to make a 100 yard defensive pistol shot.

In all seriousness, know where your gun hits out to 50 and stop there.

Saluki2003
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Posted: 5/17/2012 1:09:02 AM
[Last Edit: 5/17/2012 1:37:40 AM by Saluki2003]
Thank you....thats what I was looking for. Guess I could have worded my question better. I'm pretty decent out to about 25 yards with my Sig p220....thats the longest shot at the range I've been going to. I've been watching videos lately and I think I'm going to take a class or have my SEAL buddy give me some lessons when he gets back.
ex_dsmr
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Posted: 5/17/2012 1:48:19 PM
[Last Edit: 5/17/2012 1:49:33 PM by ex_dsmr]
Nothing wrong with asking "just to know" but the reality of it is, the max effective range is virtually meaningless in real life. I cant possibly imagine a situation- even in the middle of a war- where youd engage someone at 100 yard or even 50 yards. Anything beyond 25 yards and its time for a rifle.

If its for a self defense situation, good luck convincing a jury that you had to engage someone 50 or 100 yards out- not to mention the liability of missing that person entirley and hitting someone or something unintended.
By that point you've done every position you can do without requiring the assistance of some eyebolts and ballistic nylon webbing. There's a point at which enough is enough
John_Wayne777
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Posted: 5/17/2012 4:13:07 PM
Given the limitations of both cartridges and the intended uses for which they were designed, I believe that for practical purposes, the effective ranges of both of them are basically the same.

That being said: there was a member here who posted pictures of himself popping steel drums out to extremely long ranges with a .45ACP 1911 and hitting them more often than not.
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Waveform
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Posted: 5/17/2012 4:35:51 PM

Originally Posted By Saluki2003:
I guess I'm just wondering at what range the rounds will not be effective at bringing down a person.

A long, long way. Take 147 grain 9mm out of a 4.5" barrel:

It has a BC of about .164. With a MV of 1000fps, at 240 yards, it will still be going over 800 fps. That is plenty mv to fully penetrate a human body.
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bosnian_brawler
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Posted: 5/17/2012 5:13:45 PM
Effective range has to be no more than 50 yards for both. After 50 yards you have to be very lucky or be an expert shooter....
vanilla_gorilla
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Posted: 5/17/2012 9:01:16 PM

Originally Posted By bosnian_brawler:
Effective range has to be no more than 50 yards for both. After 50 yards you have to be very lucky or be an expert shooter....


Bullshit.
Looks like we've got some imminent violence!
bradleyswine
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Posted: 5/17/2012 9:32:45 PM
I can and have regularly hit 7"x11" targets at 50 yards using my 1911 in .45 acp. I have never shot at a man sized paper target at 50 yards with my 1911 however I would be willing that I could about 90% or better at 50 yards. Probably closer to 100%.
MTNmyMag
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Posted: 5/17/2012 9:37:17 PM
A skilled marksman can use either platform, as it matters, to an effective range of about 100 yards. Hitting stationary targets at distance on a square range is not , as it matters. 100 yards is probably about 25 yards too optimistic.
Tommy2399
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Posted: 5/18/2012 12:14:15 AM
I normally shoot at 75- 85 yds

The sites on these 1911 are set for 100 yds (notice the rear sites, the little guy has the front site filed way down)

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100 yds

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75 - 85 is much easier than 100

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.

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broke most of the clay birds on the right of the berm

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Waveform
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Posted: 5/18/2012 12:21:59 AM

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By bosnian_brawler:
Effective range has to be no more than 50 yards for both. After 50 yards you have to be very lucky or be an expert shooter....


Bullshit.

Have you been to a public range? At least half of shooters would be lucky to hit the target at 25 yards.

Take me out into the black, Tell 'em I ain't coming back.
vanilla_gorilla
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Posted: 5/18/2012 1:23:50 AM

Originally Posted By Waveform:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By bosnian_brawler:
Effective range has to be no more than 50 yards for both. After 50 yards you have to be very lucky or be an expert shooter....


Bullshit.

Have you been to a public range? At least half of shooters would be lucky to hit the target at 25 yards.



Am I'm certainly not an expert shooter, but more than once now, I've won lunch at the public range by shooting a bowling pin at a hundred yards.

Once, an Arfcommer who went shooting with me had set up some pins at about 125, and some assholes starting plinking away with their rifles at our pins. He assumed a one-handed target shooting stance and bang-flopped a pin with one round from his Super Blackhawk. The assholes looked a moment, then packed up and left.
Looks like we've got some imminent violence!
44-40pro
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Posted: 5/18/2012 3:07:31 AM
[Last Edit: 5/18/2012 3:09:12 AM by 44-40pro]
Lets look at this issue from a completely different perspective, shall we? At what distance are YOU willing to stand and let me take torso shots at you, the idea being at what distance would YOU be sure of not sustaining a fatal injury. When I lived in Florida, I shot on a private range outside of Gainesville. We regularly shot a 12 by 12 inch gong from 100 to 150 yds, often going 8-10 rings in a row. Gun was a Springfield, military grade, with Millet aftermarket sights, internal polish, full length rod, minor trigger cleanup. With a little practice it became a routine feat. Never shot a nine millimeter at any thing beyond 25 yds, as mine are subcompact carry guns, so I can't speak to their effective accuracy at distance. Suffice it to say, I'm sure there are people as competent with their nines at distance, as I am with my .45.YOUR effective range is the distance at which YOU can hit a center mass target of 10-12 inches across. I'll let the ballisticians out there tell you at what range the bullet no longer carries sufficient energy to kill you. jmtcw, 44.
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Posted: 5/18/2012 7:37:11 AM
Originally Posted By 44-40pro:
Lets look at this issue from a completely different perspective, shall we? At what distance are YOU willing to stand and let me take torso shots at you, the idea being at what distance would YOU be sure of not sustaining a fatal injury. When I lived in Florida, I shot on a private range outside of Gainesville. We regularly shot a 12 by 12 inch gong from 100 to 150 yds, often going 8-10 rings in a row. Gun was a Springfield, military grade, with Millet aftermarket sights, internal polish, full length rod, minor trigger cleanup. With a little practice it became a routine feat. Never shot a nine millimeter at any thing beyond 25 yds, as mine are subcompact carry guns, so I can't speak to their effective accuracy at distance. Suffice it to say, I'm sure there are people as competent with their nines at distance, as I am with my .45.YOUR effective range is the distance at which YOU can hit a center mass target of 10-12 inches across. I'll let the ballisticians out there tell you at what range the bullet no longer carries sufficient energy to kill you. jmtcw, 44.


I hate this argument. It's so stupid.

I wouldn't let you throw a river rock at me, and those wouldn't be fatal either.
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