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THE_BUSHMAN
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Posted: 5/3/2012 11:36:25 PM
Is the 10mm really that much more powerful the the 45ACP.
For you guys that reload the 45ACP, have you used it to hunt wild game.
Can the 45ACP with a 200gr HP,XTP, Cast Bullet be a good hunting and woods gun.


HORNADY stats on 45ACP &10mm (factory loads)

.45 ACP+P 200GR JHP/XTP 1,055FPS 494 MZ FT. LBS.

10mm 200GR JHP/XTP 1,050FPS 490 MZ FT. LBS.
buckeyeborn
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Posted: 5/3/2012 11:44:26 PM
[Last Edit: 5/3/2012 11:47:35 PM by buckeyeborn]
Real 10 mm are much hotter can be pushed look at Corbon loads
http://www.shopcorbon.com/CORBON-Hunter/10mm-Auto-200gr-CORBON-Hunter-RNPN/HT10200PN-20/300/Product
intheburbs
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Posted: 5/4/2012 12:12:42 AM
You can get over 700 ft-lbs out of hot 10mm rounds. You should be able to push a 200-grain bullet close to 1300 fps in 10mm.
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Winston_Wolf
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Posted: 5/4/2012 12:15:30 AM
... just added the 10MM to my 1911 repertoire.
Seems to be a very interesting cartridge. Soon to be my new daily carry
RogueSpear2023
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Posted: 5/4/2012 12:28:44 AM
Yes hot 10mm loads are much more powerful the standard 45ACP, it's kind like the difference between standard and hot 45/70.
THE_BUSHMAN
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Posted: 5/4/2012 12:35:15 AM
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
Yes hot 10mm loads are much more powerful the standard 45ACP, it's kind like the difference between standard and hot 45/70.
I would think you could load the 45 pretty hot also, to duplicate most of the 10mm custom MFG's.
jnielsen
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Posted: 5/4/2012 1:41:40 AM
[Last Edit: 5/4/2012 1:42:56 AM by jnielsen]
No, you can not load the .45 ACP any where near the 10mm.

The 10mm was designed as a high pressure cartridge.

The .45 auto even in +p loadings is anemic compared to full power 10mm loads.

Because of its slow velocity and heavy bullet the .45 drops like a rock at extended ranges compared to even a 9mm or .40.

Its penetration is also limited because of its large diameter bullet and slow velocity-one of the reasons the US Military dropped the 1911.

The .45 auto is not a very good hunting cartridge.

In most loadings the .40 generates more energy then the .45 and shoots flatter-its a a chopped 10mm. Not that I would hunt with a .40 either.

Not putting the .45 down-its a great defensive caliber against two legged targets.
Nav223
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Posted: 5/4/2012 2:12:53 AM
The only thing that comes close to 10mm full power ( .40) comparing it to the 45 is the 460 Rowland.
The sheer fps and lbs at muzzle of the 10 not to mention the fact that is one of the flattest shooting rounds I know of out of a pistol ( check you tube hickok45 shooting a g29 and hitting steel at 85 yards) not that you need to shoot that far but its a great example of how flat it shoots.
I own a g29, g20 and Delta Elite . The g29 is my daily carry. I also reload which is really where the 10mm shines.

Its really like comparing apples to oranges both are made to do different things, its all in what you like and the application of it.

I love my 45's my 460 Rowland but for me......the 10mm is the cats meow. It does it all.
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NVGdude
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Posted: 5/4/2012 2:42:42 AM
[Last Edit: 5/4/2012 2:46:45 AM by NVGdude]
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)
GunDisaster
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Posted: 5/4/2012 4:27:17 AM
For hunting I would use 10mm. For self defense I would go with .45acp. For suppressed .45acp for sure to be quiet
reelserious
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Posted: 5/4/2012 5:56:03 AM
The original 10mm load was 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps. run those numbers
frankiebagadonuts
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Posted: 5/4/2012 8:19:25 AM
I love when someone compares the hottest load they can find for a particular caliber to compare with a weak load of another to prove a point. Kind of like the argument that 9mm +p++ has the same power factor as .40. If you like the .45 or 9mm, great. They are both effective calibers. You don't have to justify your decision to everyone else.

OP- This rant wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I think that you were just asking a legitimate question. It's been a rough week, and I felt like ranting...
HarryVoyager
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Posted: 5/4/2012 8:55:32 AM
Well, according to the wound ballistics tests that are linked up on the ammo forum, .45 ACP hardball actually has a very high level of penetration. I'm not seeing any 10mm Auto data, but they did find that the .44 magnum hollow points ended up with no more penetration than the .44 Special HPs.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

I'm really coming to the conclusion that pistol rounds just don't have much energy. 1 gram TNT equivalent is 4,180 J, and a hot 10mm is only going to get maybe 1/4 of that.

Interestingly enough, apparently that's about the same energy as is contained in a Kcal, which is what is normally called just a "calorie". So, you typical 20oz coke contains the energy equivalent of 300 grams of TNT, or 1,200 rounds of 10mm Auto.

Isn't science fun?

Harry Voyager
bluefalcon
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Posted: 5/4/2012 12:25:42 PM
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)


I'm sure there are people pushing the limits in every caliber but that doesn't change the fact that SAAMI spec 10mm is significantly more powerful than SAAMI spec .45 ACP. If you spend a bit more time in those books you'll find that 10mm can push light bullets at roughly the same velocity as .357 mag and it can push heavy bullets faster than .357 mag.

There are less factory loads available for 10mm. That's a legitimate complaint and you have to decide for yourself whether that matters. There are some full power factory 10mm loads and a plethora of good, modern projectiles if you want to roll your own.

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THE_BUSHMAN
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Posted: 5/4/2012 3:20:10 PM
Originally Posted By frankiebagadonuts:
I love when someone compares the hottest load they can find for a particular caliber to compare with a weak load of another to prove a point. Kind of like the argument that 9mm +p++ has the same power factor as .40. If you like the .45 or 9mm, great. They are both effective calibers. You don't have to justify your decision to everyone else.

OP- This rant wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I think that you were just asking a legitimate question. It's been a rough week, and I felt like ranting...


I ask as I only use a 44 Mag for an all around gun and looking at a semi. About 2 years ago a guy killed a brownie in Alaska with a 45ACP, but it ran off and later died.
That is why I ask if the 45ACP can be loaded on the hotter end as a woods, bush gun, with a aftermarket barrel.
bluefalcon
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Posted: 5/4/2012 3:31:12 PM
Originally Posted By THE_BUSHMAN:
Originally Posted By frankiebagadonuts:
I love when someone compares the hottest load they can find for a particular caliber to compare with a weak load of another to prove a point. Kind of like the argument that 9mm +p++ has the same power factor as .40. If you like the .45 or 9mm, great. They are both effective calibers. You don't have to justify your decision to everyone else.

OP- This rant wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I think that you were just asking a legitimate question. It's been a rough week, and I felt like ranting...


I ask as I only use a 44 Mag for an all around gun and looking at a semi. About 2 years ago a guy killed a brownie in Alaska with a 45ACP, but it ran off and later died.
That is why I ask if the 45ACP can be loaded on the hotter end as a woods, bush gun, with a aftermarket barrel.


When that crazy dude let all the wild animals loose, several officers STOPPED dangerous animals, including a bear with issued .40 S&W. All sorts of stuff CAN happen but the 10mm is definitely a better choice for large animal defense than .45 ACP, all other factors notwithstanding. The same bullet weight in 10mm will have a greater sectional density so would penetrate more deeply even if at the same velocity, yet the 10mm can push that bullet much faster. As an animal defense, there really is no question that the 10mm beats the .45. They are both just handguns, though. Rifles and shotguns will be far more effective. There is also an argument to be made for big bore revolvers for handguns for defense against dangerous animals. Just like any other cartridge, there are advantages and disadvantages. In the case of the 10mm it offers A LOT of power for an auto pistol, very flat shooting, very versatile, and although the level of utility is debatable, a handgun chambered in 10mm can be useful for defense against two and four legged critters.

"You can keep your land of ordinances and slavery to decorum, I will shoot my machine gun off my front porch, naked, while drinking Jack Daniels from the bottle, and pretend America isnt dead." - RustedAce
Chris_1522
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Posted: 5/4/2012 3:36:15 PM
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)


You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded. Far less than SAMMI pressure specifications allow. On the other hand, .45 ACP is not.

You do not need to exceed SAAMI specs to make 10mm outperform .45 ACP by a large margin. You cannot make .45 ACP equal 10mm load without greatly exceeding even SAAMI +P specs.
garretts1776
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Posted: 5/4/2012 4:29:10 PM
Depends where you live. I live in Texas, .45 is a great woods gun, but for hogs. Bear? hell no haha I would rock your 10mm or your .44 mag. .45 is great for people and I punched 2 rounds through the skull of a charging 300 lb boar. But if you live in bear country, Id go something bigger
ALPHAGHOST
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Posted: 5/4/2012 4:59:12 PM
for an auto pistol "magnum", yes, 10mm

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Rcd567
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Posted: 5/5/2012 7:49:59 PM
Check out Underwood's ammo for both. You'll see the 10 nudges the 45+P by about 100fps. They load on the warm side.
http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto.aspx
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NVGdude
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Posted: 5/6/2012 12:29:24 AM
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:

You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded.


No, we don't know that actually. Unless you have aces to a pressure test barrel.
vanilla_gorilla
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Posted: 5/6/2012 10:15:46 AM

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)


You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded. Far less than SAMMI pressure specifications allow. On the other hand, .45 ACP is not.

You do not need to exceed SAAMI specs to make 10mm outperform .45 ACP by a large margin. You cannot make .45 ACP equal 10mm load without greatly exceeding even SAAMI +P specs.


Or by doing what many 10mm owners do anyway and change springs, then run .45 Super.
Looks like we've got some imminent violence!
Chris_1522
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Posted: 5/6/2012 11:14:19 AM
Or .460 Rowland.

But of course you loose capacity. I'm looking into a Super instead of 10mm myself, due to lack of 10mm platforms that I like. Glock really being the only one I'd consider.
Madcap72
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Posted: 5/6/2012 11:31:27 AM

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:

You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded.


No, we don't know that actually. Unless you have aces to a pressure test barrel.

Yes we do, most factory ammo is loaded to the FBI practice round ballistics, which is barely hotter than .40, and hundreds of FPS slower and lighter recoiling than "full house" ammo.
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HeckThomas
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Posted: 5/6/2012 12:04:53 PM
Yes the 10mm is far superior outdoors.

Here's the real deal. The 10mm is seeing a surge of popularity right now, but it is and always will be a reloading & hunting gun first.

If I'm mainly in the city a 45ACP or 40S&W are a better suited cartridge. Outdoors though where 200# Black bear, mountain lion, 200-300# Hogs, medium deer and meth heads at 40 yards a 10mm is great. I can see a guide in Alaska / Montana carrying a Glock 20 for a convience gun. The weighted revolvers get really heavy and if your carrying a rifle already weight becomes the factor.

When your outdoors heavy revolvers always have their own camp chair and are always 10ft away when the 2 tweekers roll up to camp in an old pick up asking if Billy is with us. A Glock, Razorback or Delta is thin enough to still wear while sitting in a camp chair enjoying a plate of food. Handy enough to stick in your front pocket when going for a stroll to relieve ones self.

A Big bear protecting it's cubs will act differently than one being pursued by dogs and hunted so shoot accordingly.

Recently on Alaska State troopers a guy plugged a moose and it's calf for harrasing his dog, it was a Glock 20 standard barrel, 2 rounds each ball ammo, over the counter result was 2 dead moose in the driveway. Could a 45ACP, 40 S&W, 357 Magnum have the same result Absolutely. The Glock 20 just happens to work well in damp conditions so it works well in AK.

So buy what you want, but I wouldn't get a 10mm to just shoot paper. it's a great accurate caliber but no wheres near the "FULL" potential of a 41 magnum.
grendelbane
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Posted: 5/6/2012 1:05:13 PM
If we are talking about handloads, and if we introduce the .45 Super into the conversation, I think any difference is minimal. I include the .45 Super, because if you have a .45 ACP already, its easy to make it a .45 Super. (If its a modern steel frame gov't size, anyway).

Then, the question is which one will produce more penetration? That is going to depend on bullet weight and construction, and velocity. Both cartridges are going to come in last place compared to a properly chosen large bore magnum revolver round. Think .41, .44 magnum, and hot loaded .45 Colt. Even these are trumped by the .454 Casull, and whatever Smith calls their last hot .45.

So, theoretically the 10mm may be a bit better. Practically speaking, its a draw. Fun to discuss, but not worth walking across the street to trade for the other caliber.
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