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Basic
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Posted: 5/3/2012 6:36:25 PM EST
Is the 10mm really that much more powerful the the 45ACP.
For you guys that reload the 45ACP, have you used it to hunt wild game.
Can the 45ACP with a 200gr HP,XTP, Cast Bullet be a good hunting and woods gun.


HORNADY stats on 45ACP &10mm (factory loads)

.45 ACP+P 200GR JHP/XTP 1,055FPS 494 MZ FT. LBS.

10mm 200GR JHP/XTP 1,050FPS 490 MZ FT. LBS.
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Posted: 5/3/2012 6:44:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2012 6:47:35 PM EST by buckeyeborn]
Real 10 mm are much hotter can be pushed look at Corbon loads
http://www.shopcorbon.com/CORBON-Hunter/10mm-Auto-200gr-CORBON-Hunter-RNPN/HT10200PN-20/300/Product
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Posted: 5/3/2012 7:12:42 PM EST
You can get over 700 ft-lbs out of hot 10mm rounds. You should be able to push a 200-grain bullet close to 1300 fps in 10mm.
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Posted: 5/3/2012 7:15:30 PM EST
... just added the 10MM to my 1911 repertoire.
Seems to be a very interesting cartridge. Soon to be my new daily carry
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Posted: 5/3/2012 7:28:44 PM EST
Yes hot 10mm loads are much more powerful the standard 45ACP, it's kind like the difference between standard and hot 45/70.
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Posted: 5/3/2012 7:35:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
Yes hot 10mm loads are much more powerful the standard 45ACP, it's kind like the difference between standard and hot 45/70.
I would think you could load the 45 pretty hot also, to duplicate most of the 10mm custom MFG's.
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Posted: 5/3/2012 8:41:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2012 8:42:56 PM EST by jnielsen]
No, you can not load the .45 ACP any where near the 10mm.

The 10mm was designed as a high pressure cartridge.

The .45 auto even in +p loadings is anemic compared to full power 10mm loads.

Because of its slow velocity and heavy bullet the .45 drops like a rock at extended ranges compared to even a 9mm or .40.

Its penetration is also limited because of its large diameter bullet and slow velocity-one of the reasons the US Military dropped the 1911.

The .45 auto is not a very good hunting cartridge.

In most loadings the .40 generates more energy then the .45 and shoots flatter-its a a chopped 10mm. Not that I would hunt with a .40 either.

Not putting the .45 down-its a great defensive caliber against two legged targets.
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Posted: 5/3/2012 9:12:53 PM EST
The only thing that comes close to 10mm full power ( .40) comparing it to the 45 is the 460 Rowland.
The sheer fps and lbs at muzzle of the 10 not to mention the fact that is one of the flattest shooting rounds I know of out of a pistol ( check you tube hickok45 shooting a g29 and hitting steel at 85 yards) not that you need to shoot that far but its a great example of how flat it shoots.
I own a g29, g20 and Delta Elite . The g29 is my daily carry. I also reload which is really where the 10mm shines.

Its really like comparing apples to oranges both are made to do different things, its all in what you like and the application of it.

I love my 45's my 460 Rowland but for me......the 10mm is the cats meow. It does it all.
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Posted: 5/3/2012 9:42:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2012 9:46:45 PM EST by NVGdude]
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)
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Posted: 5/3/2012 11:27:17 PM EST
For hunting I would use 10mm. For self defense I would go with .45acp. For suppressed .45acp for sure to be quiet
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Posted: 5/4/2012 12:56:03 AM EST
The original 10mm load was 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps. run those numbers
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Posted: 5/4/2012 3:19:25 AM EST
I love when someone compares the hottest load they can find for a particular caliber to compare with a weak load of another to prove a point. Kind of like the argument that 9mm +p++ has the same power factor as .40. If you like the .45 or 9mm, great. They are both effective calibers. You don't have to justify your decision to everyone else.

OP- This rant wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I think that you were just asking a legitimate question. It's been a rough week, and I felt like ranting...
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Posted: 5/4/2012 3:55:32 AM EST
Well, according to the wound ballistics tests that are linked up on the ammo forum, .45 ACP hardball actually has a very high level of penetration. I'm not seeing any 10mm Auto data, but they did find that the .44 magnum hollow points ended up with no more penetration than the .44 Special HPs.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

I'm really coming to the conclusion that pistol rounds just don't have much energy. 1 gram TNT equivalent is 4,180 J, and a hot 10mm is only going to get maybe 1/4 of that.

Interestingly enough, apparently that's about the same energy as is contained in a Kcal, which is what is normally called just a "calorie". So, you typical 20oz coke contains the energy equivalent of 300 grams of TNT, or 1,200 rounds of 10mm Auto.

Isn't science fun?

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Posted: 5/4/2012 7:25:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)


I'm sure there are people pushing the limits in every caliber but that doesn't change the fact that SAAMI spec 10mm is significantly more powerful than SAAMI spec .45 ACP. If you spend a bit more time in those books you'll find that 10mm can push light bullets at roughly the same velocity as .357 mag and it can push heavy bullets faster than .357 mag.

There are less factory loads available for 10mm. That's a legitimate complaint and you have to decide for yourself whether that matters. There are some full power factory 10mm loads and a plethora of good, modern projectiles if you want to roll your own.

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Posted: 5/4/2012 10:20:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By frankiebagadonuts:
I love when someone compares the hottest load they can find for a particular caliber to compare with a weak load of another to prove a point. Kind of like the argument that 9mm +p++ has the same power factor as .40. If you like the .45 or 9mm, great. They are both effective calibers. You don't have to justify your decision to everyone else.

OP- This rant wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I think that you were just asking a legitimate question. It's been a rough week, and I felt like ranting...


I ask as I only use a 44 Mag for an all around gun and looking at a semi. About 2 years ago a guy killed a brownie in Alaska with a 45ACP, but it ran off and later died.
That is why I ask if the 45ACP can be loaded on the hotter end as a woods, bush gun, with a aftermarket barrel.
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Posted: 5/4/2012 10:31:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By THE_BUSHMAN:
Originally Posted By frankiebagadonuts:
I love when someone compares the hottest load they can find for a particular caliber to compare with a weak load of another to prove a point. Kind of like the argument that 9mm +p++ has the same power factor as .40. If you like the .45 or 9mm, great. They are both effective calibers. You don't have to justify your decision to everyone else.

OP- This rant wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I think that you were just asking a legitimate question. It's been a rough week, and I felt like ranting...


I ask as I only use a 44 Mag for an all around gun and looking at a semi. About 2 years ago a guy killed a brownie in Alaska with a 45ACP, but it ran off and later died.
That is why I ask if the 45ACP can be loaded on the hotter end as a woods, bush gun, with a aftermarket barrel.


When that crazy dude let all the wild animals loose, several officers STOPPED dangerous animals, including a bear with issued .40 S&W. All sorts of stuff CAN happen but the 10mm is definitely a better choice for large animal defense than .45 ACP, all other factors notwithstanding. The same bullet weight in 10mm will have a greater sectional density so would penetrate more deeply even if at the same velocity, yet the 10mm can push that bullet much faster. As an animal defense, there really is no question that the 10mm beats the .45. They are both just handguns, though. Rifles and shotguns will be far more effective. There is also an argument to be made for big bore revolvers for handguns for defense against dangerous animals. Just like any other cartridge, there are advantages and disadvantages. In the case of the 10mm it offers A LOT of power for an auto pistol, very flat shooting, very versatile, and although the level of utility is debatable, a handgun chambered in 10mm can be useful for defense against two and four legged critters.

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Posted: 5/4/2012 10:36:15 AM EST
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Posted: 5/4/2012 11:29:10 AM EST
Depends where you live. I live in Texas, .45 is a great woods gun, but for hogs. Bear? hell no haha I would rock your 10mm or your .44 mag. .45 is great for people and I punched 2 rounds through the skull of a charging 300 lb boar. But if you live in bear country, Id go something bigger
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Posted: 5/4/2012 11:59:12 AM EST
for an auto pistol "magnum", yes, 10mm

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Posted: 5/5/2012 2:49:59 PM EST
Check out Underwood's ammo for both. You'll see the 10 nudges the 45+P by about 100fps. They load on the warm side.
http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto.aspx
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Posted: 5/5/2012 7:29:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:

You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded.


No, we don't know that actually. Unless you have aces to a pressure test barrel.
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Posted: 5/6/2012 5:15:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
No, not really.

Companies like double Tap load rounds that well exceed SAAMI spec for the round, as a result the numbers are impressive.
If you want overloaded out of spec ammo you can do that with the .45 as well.

(I have loaded some 230 grain .45 loads that will do 1100 fps. No pressure signs, even though at that velocity it is obviously an overpressure load) The folks who handload .10mm seem to always be loading rounds well above max in any of my 8 loading manuals

For shooting people the .45 is a better choice simply because there are so many modern SD loads available for it. For 10mm the choices are pretty limited.
On the other hand a good hunting bullet like the XTP (or hard cast) is going to have much better penetration out of the 10mm.

(I carry my Delta Elite in the woods, I carry a 45 in town)


You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded. Far less than SAMMI pressure specifications allow. On the other hand, .45 ACP is not.

You do not need to exceed SAAMI specs to make 10mm outperform .45 ACP by a large margin. You cannot make .45 ACP equal 10mm load without greatly exceeding even SAAMI +P specs.


Or by doing what many 10mm owners do anyway and change springs, then run .45 Super.
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Posted: 5/6/2012 6:14:19 AM EST
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Posted: 5/6/2012 6:31:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:

You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded.


No, we don't know that actually. Unless you have aces to a pressure test barrel.

Yes we do, most factory ammo is loaded to the FBI practice round ballistics, which is barely hotter than .40, and hundreds of FPS slower and lighter recoiling than "full house" ammo.
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Posted: 5/6/2012 7:04:53 AM EST
Yes the 10mm is far superior outdoors.

Here's the real deal. The 10mm is seeing a surge of popularity right now, but it is and always will be a reloading & hunting gun first.

If I'm mainly in the city a 45ACP or 40S&W are a better suited cartridge. Outdoors though where 200# Black bear, mountain lion, 200-300# Hogs, medium deer and meth heads at 40 yards a 10mm is great. I can see a guide in Alaska / Montana carrying a Glock 20 for a convience gun. The weighted revolvers get really heavy and if your carrying a rifle already weight becomes the factor.

When your outdoors heavy revolvers always have their own camp chair and are always 10ft away when the 2 tweekers roll up to camp in an old pick up asking if Billy is with us. A Glock, Razorback or Delta is thin enough to still wear while sitting in a camp chair enjoying a plate of food. Handy enough to stick in your front pocket when going for a stroll to relieve ones self.

A Big bear protecting it's cubs will act differently than one being pursued by dogs and hunted so shoot accordingly.

Recently on Alaska State troopers a guy plugged a moose and it's calf for harrasing his dog, it was a Glock 20 standard barrel, 2 rounds each ball ammo, over the counter result was 2 dead moose in the driveway. Could a 45ACP, 40 S&W, 357 Magnum have the same result Absolutely. The Glock 20 just happens to work well in damp conditions so it works well in AK.

So buy what you want, but I wouldn't get a 10mm to just shoot paper. it's a great accurate caliber but no wheres near the "FULL" potential of a 41 magnum.
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Posted: 5/6/2012 8:05:13 AM EST
If we are talking about handloads, and if we introduce the .45 Super into the conversation, I think any difference is minimal. I include the .45 Super, because if you have a .45 ACP already, its easy to make it a .45 Super. (If its a modern steel frame gov't size, anyway).

Then, the question is which one will produce more penetration? That is going to depend on bullet weight and construction, and velocity. Both cartridges are going to come in last place compared to a properly chosen large bore magnum revolver round. Think .41, .44 magnum, and hot loaded .45 Colt. Even these are trumped by the .454 Casull, and whatever Smith calls their last hot .45.

So, theoretically the 10mm may be a bit better. Practically speaking, its a draw. Fun to discuss, but not worth walking across the street to trade for the other caliber.
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Posted: 5/6/2012 2:08:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:

You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded.


No, we don't know that actually. Unless you have aces to a pressure test barrel.

Yes we do, most factory ammo is loaded to the FBI practice round ballistics, which is barely hotter than .40, and hundreds of FPS slower and lighter recoiling than "full house" ammo.


And this so called "full house ammo" is over-pressure. Full pressure 10mm is about 200-300 fps faster than the .40 S&W (for a given bullet weight). There is no such thing as magic, to get an extra 500 fps in the 10mm requires a load that is at least 10,000 PSI higher than spec.
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Posted: 5/7/2012 4:59:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2012 5:01:00 AM EST by Chris_1522]
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Posted: 5/7/2012 8:40:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
What extra 500 fps?

Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000.

You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?!


Pfffttt. Stop with all that nonsense. He KNOWS that 10mm is basically "the same" as .40 S&W. It's common knowledge, after all.


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Posted: 5/7/2012 3:04:07 PM EST
If I were running around the woods, I'd be tempted to carry a Gen4 G21SF with souped up, hard cast loads. Just sayin'.
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Posted: 5/7/2012 5:16:14 PM EST
Based purely upon the most UNscientific method possible, I did some quick mag dumps with my Glock 20SF & GA Arms 10mm FMJ. After two mags I had to sit it down as my hand tingled too much to continue to shoot accurately. I can shoot .45acp all day long (& have) but I can easily tell the difference between the two calibers. I'd bet one could tell the difference on the other end as well.

I also mention that when I'm in an area of serious ghetto rats, the 10mm is with me as well. Nothing says "hello, leave my ass alone" like 45rds of 10mm on my hip, IMO.

The Glock 20SF is the superior 10mm platform these days, IMO. I had a Witness but its accuracy & mag spring issues left me less than happy. While the Glock trigger isn't on my happy list, I make do.

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Posted: 5/8/2012 7:07:40 AM EST
Could you elaborate on the magazine spring issue? I had some reliability problems that I may have addressed (won't know 'til I shoot it next). What, exactly were the problems you encountered and do you know of any solutions?

I bought a Witness because I already had 3 Glocks and I wanted something a little different. I like the gun quite a bit.

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Posted: 5/8/2012 9:55:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2012 10:07:48 PM EST by NVGdude]
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
What extra 500 fps?

Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000.

You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?!


Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not.

10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps)
If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph.

1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI.

Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference)
Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded)

So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec.





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Posted: 5/9/2012 12:01:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
What extra 500 fps?

Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000.

You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?!


Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not.

10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps)
If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph.

1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI.

Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference)
Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded)

So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec.


Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders.
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Posted: 5/9/2012 2:10:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
What extra 500 fps?

Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000.

You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?!


Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not.

10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps)
If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph.

1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI.

Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference)
Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded)

So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec.






Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders.


Sometimes manufactures will use a longer barrels! That will increase the velocity .

Like a 357magnum 125gr SJHP at 1800 fps in one of my reloading manuals
No way did that come from a 4inch barrel.
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Posted: 5/9/2012 11:55:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
What extra 500 fps?

Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000.

You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?!


Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not.

10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps)
If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph.

1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI.

Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference)
Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded)

So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec.


Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders.


Sometimes manufactures will use a longer barrels! That will increase the velocity .

Like a 357magnum 125gr SJHP at 1800 fps in one of my reloading manuals
No way did that come from a 4inch barrel.

No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels.



http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO

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Posted: 5/9/2012 11:56:13 AM EST
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html


Speaking of...
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Posted: 5/9/2012 11:59:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2012 11:59:32 AM EST by vanilla_gorilla]

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
What extra 500 fps?

Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000.

You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?!


Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not.

10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps)
If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph.

1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI.

Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference)
Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded)

So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec.


Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders.


Sometimes manufactures will use a longer barrels! That will increase the velocity .

Like a 357magnum 125gr SJHP at 1800 fps in one of my reloading manuals
No way did that come from a 4inch barrel.

No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels.



http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO



IIRC, I got nearly 1600 from a 6 inch 586 with Rem 125s. That's the most I've seen from a pistol.
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Posted: 5/9/2012 12:13:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

snip

No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels.



http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO



IIRC, I got nearly 1600 from a 6 inch 586 with Rem 125s. That's the most I've seen from a pistol.

I think like a lot of things, .357 has been slowly reduced in pressure over the years. Having just got into .357 I'm not as up and experienced with it as I am .38 super, Bit it seems like ALL the hot loads from back in the day, .357, .38 Super, 10mm, have all been calmed down a lot since the use of modern testing in loading.



For instance, .38 Automatic basically started out as a 130 grain bullet at 1300FPS, but shook guns apart, so it was downloaded to around 1100 FPS. It was readopted as the Super .38, put in nickel cases and used in the 1911 back at 130@1300 FPS. Then DECADES later became the .38 Super +p, was dropped to 130@1250 but most factory loads chrono at around 1200 if advertised at 1250. (down and dirty example, not claiming 100% accuracy).


My model 13 came with the .357 load data available from S&W branded ammo in the 70's and the stuff looks atrocious on paper.



I'd really like to know the length of the test barrel.



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Posted: 5/9/2012 12:22:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:

You're argument here is a little intellectually dishonest.

We all know most big-factory 10mm ammo is anemically loaded.


No, we don't know that actually. Unless you have aces to a pressure test barrel.


I thought Double Tap loaded to the original Norma pressures.
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Posted: 5/9/2012 3:16:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

snip

No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels.



http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO



IIRC, I got nearly 1600 from a 6 inch 586 with Rem 125s. That's the most I've seen from a pistol.

I think like a lot of things, .357 has been slowly reduced in pressure over the years. Having just got into .357 I'm not as up and experienced with it as I am .38 super, Bit it seems like ALL the hot loads from back in the day, .357, .38 Super, 10mm, have all been calmed down a lot since the use of modern testing in loading.



For instance, .38 Automatic basically started out as a 130 grain bullet at 1300FPS, but shook guns apart, so it was downloaded to around 1100 FPS. It was readopted as the Super .38, put in nickel cases and used in the 1911 back at 130@1300 FPS. Then DECADES later became the .38 Super +p, was dropped to 130@1250 but most factory loads chrono at around 1200 if advertised at 1250. (down and dirty example, not claiming 100% accuracy).


My model 13 came with the .357 load data available from S&W branded ammo in the 70's and the stuff looks atrocious on paper.



I'd really like to know the length of the test barrel.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/417137_10151264187505346_736275345_22349227_1678368315_n.jpg



Thread hijack!

I'm a BIG .357 fan. I was up to 5 of them at one time. Now I have 2 revos and my recently-purchased lever gun.

Both the .357 and the .38 Special have been reduced over the years. The "original" .357 load was a 158 grain lead SWC at 1510 fps from an 8 3/4 inch S&W revolver. That load is in excess of 40K psi. Some guys over on the S&W Forum have done some testing, and found that even the wimpy .38 has been downgraded. The +P loads that are available now are weaker than standard loads that were available 40 years ago.
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Posted: 5/9/2012 5:12:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By FMJ:

No way did that come from a 4inch barrel.




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Posted: 5/9/2012 5:13:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By BobCole:
Originally Posted By FMJ:

No way did that come from a 4inch barrel.




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Posted: 5/9/2012 8:31:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders.


You seriously think that a small operation like Double Tap hasaccess to proprietary powder? Norma loaded to 44,000 PSI when they first introduced the load.
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Posted: 5/10/2012 1:34:59 AM EST
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Posted: 5/10/2012 2:24:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
I have gotten 1600 FPS from a 158gr LSWC from my 5.5" Redhawk. It leaded though.

There's no way to get anywhere near that safely with a jacketed bullet of the same weight.

The reality is twofold - .357 has been downgraded from 45k to 35k, but also load data was basically bunk. They usually used 10" unvented test barrels. You lose a lot more through the gap than people realize. Just look at T/C numbers.

I'm not going to hijack this thread any further, but I bet I can help you with that, if you're interested. IM me or start a new thread and we'll go over it.
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Posted: 5/10/2012 8:12:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2012 8:13:34 AM EST by MrSilverLining]
Do any of those energy numbers mean anything?

All the service calibers firing premium ammunition perform almost identically.

And to the guy who claimed .45 ACP Ball has limited penertration, and thats partially why the military dumped it....

How about a source? This is tech, lets see some technial aspects... Like some proof.

EDIT: 10mm is not service caliber, my statement doesn't apply to it.
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Posted: 5/10/2012 9:04:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Could you elaborate on the magazine spring issue? I had some reliability problems that I may have addressed (won't know 'til I shoot it next). What, exactly were the problems you encountered and do you know of any solutions?

I bought a Witness because I already had 3 Glocks and I wanted something a little different. I like the gun quite a bit.


I'm not sure about magazine spring issues––replacing them with Wolff springs should address that if necessary.

For the recoil spring, the Witness guns come horribly lightly sprung for the Norma and Double Tap type of original 10mm loads. When I had one, I put the heaviest spring in that would let the gun work and ran that.

Eventually, I went to Glocks––I had two 20s and a 20SF. The reason I went back to 41 Mag was that the Double Tap 9x25 and 10mm I was getting was out of spec several times in large orders of 9x25 and 10mm. (The first times, Double Tap said "yes, that sometimes happens" and I got replacements. The last time, I gave up.) If you are trying to use the big lead bullets for the 10mm, that might be the problem. I had a case of older ammo that ran like a champ––got newer ammo and... oh well.
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Posted: 5/11/2012 6:24:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/11/2012 6:27:08 AM EST by bluefalcon]
Wolff specifically states that their Tanfoglio +5% and +10% magazine springs are NOT for 10mm.

I bought an extra power recoil and firing pin spring.

My issues were nose diving rounds with a dirty gun using factory 180 gr ball and 155gr HP hand loads. I polished the feed ramp, cleaned and lubed and haven't shot the gun yet.

A few years ago DT was making ammo that met the box flap claims. Now the ammo has backed off from their original claims but they keep printing the same velocities on the box flap. Other companies like Swampfox, Georgia Arms, Underwood, etc. make good, full power 10mm ammo that actually meets claims. Here's a chart showing actual velocity vs. claimed for quite a few loads.

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Posted: 5/11/2012 10:49:27 AM EST
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