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Posted: 5/5/2011 1:44:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2011 2:25:13 PM EST by Coy_Greer]
I didn't want to believe that Sigs quality was as bad as everyone had said. Then I bought a Sig P250. I sent it back because the hammer leaned to the left and the slide stop notched looked like a guy with Parkinsons carved it out with a dull dremmel. Sig sent me back a new sig P250. With the same Slide. Only this time they tried to grind the slide stop notch even(They Didn't) and got the same guy with parkinsons disease to try to ratfile the notch straight. Here are a few pics of the affected area:




Keep in mind that this is AFTER they "Fixed" the pistol. The slide stop barely engaged in that clusterfuck of tool chatter and dremmel sanding. A mild shake would make the slide drop. I emailed these pics and 8 more shots to Sig, and asked them to please replace the slide with one that is made correctly. here was their reply:

I did get word back from the gunsmiths and they explained that they did not see anything that was out of specs. They furthermore explained that the slide stop is not supposed to sit all the way up in the notch. When it does, it becomes very difficult to disengage and release the slide. I even then went to my Boss, Scott Therrien, and he looked at the photos. At this point it has been determined by all of them that it is within specs for look, fit, and finish. If you have any other questions please feel free to let me know.

And here is my reply back:
eh, Im just gonna dump the gun, cut my losses and move on to another manufacturer. I really didnt want to believe all the hype about Sigs Quality being in the Toilet. I certainly believe it now. Thanks

V/R
Coy R. Greer

So folks, when your looking at that next Sig Sauer, think about these pictures and the quality of Sigs machine work on a simple right angle, and remember, this is made to Sigs standard.
In closing I would just like to add......

FUCK YOU SIG SAUER!

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 1:54:53 PM EST
I like my older model SIG 229. A great gun.

I brought a SIG 228 recently (they had a few batches appear in the US market with a rail in the last two years). I was disappointed how quickly the slide and frame were beating each other up and leaving gouges in the frame. I still own it, but it's a disappointment in comparison. Would not buy another SIG again.

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Posted: 5/5/2011 2:16:56 PM EST
Can't be.

This is all internet myth.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 2:19:38 PM EST
I thought it was well known the 250 was a POS and should be avoided...?

Anyway, still sucks. Guess Sig can't polish a turd.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 2:34:12 PM EST
Sig's name has been ruined - the German's made good stuff, but stay away from non-German Sigs is my take.

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Posted: 5/5/2011 2:40:22 PM EST
The P250 is a known POS.

The only SIGs that I own are the Classic series, and all have been great, US or German made.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 2:49:34 PM EST
Thats a damn shame. Sig used to be among the top notch firearms makers around at any price. Fuck
If obama is the answer, the question must be really stupid to begin with.

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Posted: 5/5/2011 3:02:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By colklink:
Thats a damn shame. Sig used to be among the top notch firearms makers around at any price. Fuck


I concur. My 239 from 2002 is my constant companion. The machining looks like a work of art. It is flawless, and works flawlessly as well. If Hans the machininst would have turned some shit like this out back then, they would have flogged his ass out back behind the shop. Frankly, the fact that this gun happens to be a P250 dosen't excuse this. The P250 design is known shit, however that should not affect the basic machine work, especially a cut as simple as this. If this slide stop notch is to their standard on this pistol, you can bet your ass this is their standard for slide stop notches across the the entire product line.

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Posted: 5/5/2011 3:09:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spartan16:
I thought it was well known the 250 was a POS and should be avoided...?

Anyway, still sucks. Guess Sig can't polish a turd.


Yep, stick with the classics. P220-228/9.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 3:16:56 PM EST
I have a P225 that I purchased before civilians were able to easily do so - It's a wonderful, reliable gun I used to shoot stages with for fun.

The P250 my youngest son picked out turned into a disaster - that's not what your son's first handgun should be - ended being sold. It should have been cherished for his lifetime. I sunk a lot of money into that as it was new and endorsed by industry awards or such. Bought the "short" trigger conversion, extra mags - because at that point Sig thought they had a winner and only supplied a single mag, night sights, whatnot. What a piece of shit.

I still love my P225 though - but it just sits in the safe these days, replaced by special purpose handguns like PPS for carry and M&P for home.

I made the mistake of buying a 522, and Sig screwed that by not supplying sights, forcing people to buy rails and iron sights - or mounting optics.

I'm done with Sig. I wish they are what they used to be 10 years ago - but I think they were done in by quality short cuts and other bad decisions.

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Posted: 5/5/2011 5:25:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2011 5:35:23 PM EST by America-first]
IMO, these days, the quality of the product turned out by any firearms manufacturer is only as good as the last gun you bought from them.

In light of the popularity of Internet forums; it's stupid for a company who has shipped a customer a defective gun to resist making it right, I just can't understand why they wouldn't give you another slide since you were already inconvenienced by them shipping a defective gun in the first instance.

SIG's customer service is supposed to be it's strong suit but I don't believe they did right by you or their own interests by chintzing on making the gun right.

The best customer service is that which you never need and too many manufacturers are making their customers test pilots for their products.

"But they have excellent customer service and they will make it right" isn't an acceptable substitute for not letting crap leave the factory in the first place.

I just bought a beautiful looking pistol from another manufacturer and it's been a total and complete jammomatic and I have to send it back to the factory.

Calling it a jammomatic is being kind; I hope they fix it properly.

But it should never have been shipped in the first place.

It isn't only SIG that has quality issues, it's most of them; but too many people refuse to admit that their new firearm hasn't passed muster and instead tell everyone that it's never had any issues.

These days the manufacturers find it cheaper to ship crap and have you send it back, rather than to ensure things are as they should be in the first place.

Some have developed good reputations for "customer service" but as I said, the best customer service involves shipping a properly made, reliable
product in the first instance.

Fixing your new gun after you have to send it back is, IMO, a damned poor second.

And refusing to do it right is a disgrace as well as a stupid business decision.

I'm going to start a thread regarding the many problems I've been having with my new E Series 1911 Tactical and how well S&W performs the necessary repairs.

They already sent me a pre paid label, I'm sending it back next week when I have the time to schedule a Fedex pickup at my home.

But IMO, the pistol, for which I paid $ 1119.00 plus sales tax, shouldn't have been craptastic in the first place.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 5:53:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By America-first:
SNIP


Good post.

I can post a link to a 10+ page thread on another forum where people are complaining about the latest flavor of the month (coughm&pcough). Everything from accuracy problems, magazine issues to broken parts with very few rounds (less than 2k), and one former HSLD Tier 1 instructor calling them "shit."

Every company puts out turds, and if you buy a known turd, you will probably have a higher percentage of getting one.

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Posted: 5/5/2011 6:18:38 PM EST
My brother just got a brand new P229, straight stock, nothing fancy. We'll shoot it on Sunday. I am wondering how it will do? I checked it out and nothing popped out at me and everything felt tight and crisp. Though I will say, when it is empty I do not like the way it balances. Buddy told me the 228's were balanced much better then the new 229's and I hadn't held one so I took him at his word. Now I know what've was talking about.

I hope I just keep getting lucky with any new gun I buy. But I'd never buy a 250 though...
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Posted: 5/5/2011 6:56:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2011 6:59:26 PM EST by Coy_Greer]
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By America-first:
SNIP


Good post.

I can post a link to a 10+ page thread on another forum where people are complaining about the latest flavor of the month (coughm&pcough). Everything from accuracy problems, magazine issues to broken parts with very few rounds (less than 2k), and one former HSLD Tier 1 instructor calling them "shit."

Every company puts out turds, and if you buy a known turd, you will probably have a higher percentage of getting one.



Could you IM me the link to that thread? I despise the M&P and would like to read what problems others are now having and validating with the gun. I gave it three chances, and all 3 had issues. Every one of them had machining artifacts left on the slide that essentially formed small chisels. When fired, these chisels ate the sides of the dust cover and then buried themselves into the frame at the end of the slides rearward movement. Every single pistol I look at has these artifacts, and the subsequent dust cover being eaten away and the divets where the chiseled artifacts are slamming into the frame. I had 1 come to me rusted because of a piss poor Melonite application (when done wrong, melonite promotes rust, since it is salt based), 1 dropped mags randomly, the triggers all sucked hard ass. S&W is basically living up to their previous reputation when it comes to auto pistols, and apparently people are catching on and its starting to show.

Lawyers are like firetrucks. No one ever thinks about them until they need one, and when they do need one, they want a really good one. -Clint Smith
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Posted: 5/5/2011 10:56:55 PM EST
Current Sig manufactured and new offerings sucks. The current company is making money off of old 226/229 reputation and the Sig brand. I will never buy another Sig! Over priced for what you pay.
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Posted: 5/5/2011 11:55:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By DEGOLDCUP:
Current Sig manufactured and new offerings sucks. The current company is making money off of old 226/229 reputation and the Sig brand. I will never buy another Sig! Over priced for what you pay.


And how much experience do you have with them? New vs. old?
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Posted: 5/6/2011 2:20:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2011 2:25:50 AM EST by America-first]
SIG is taking it on the chin more than other manufacturers on internet forums because IMO they fell to the market's current standard from a position of loftier quality than the others, but IMO, from time to time, in fact too often, they all ship crap these days.

The guys in my club all have various SIGs and they have been exemplary, as has the P220 Carry Equinox I picked up last August; I'm extremely satisfied with it and it has run 2000 absolutely flawless rounds with terrific accuracy.

I regret not choosing to buy the SIG Platinum Elite 1911 rather than the S&W E tactical rail E series I chose instead, I could have had it for over $300 cheaper and it sure as hell had to be better.

The guys in my club who own the SIG 1911s love them and for good reason.

I've got a pair of M&Ps that have gone through almost 20,000 rounds between them without a stoppage of any sort and although they have been my carry guns for almost 4 years, their finish appears virtually NIB.

I'm beginning to think that regardless of the brand, too much crap is being purposely allowed to leave the factory with the understanding that
"customer service" after the fact has replaced quality control at the factory.

The "Don't worry, they'll take care of you" fanboy nonsense I hear far too often these days isn't all that comforting when you figure the cost of buying a new gun, especially a premium priced gun from any of the manufacturers.

I just don't believe that it is a SIG only problem, it's industry wide.

We can help ourselves by not perpetuating Internet memes and being more honest about our experiences both good and bad.

The fanboys shit is hurting us all, as well as those that complain about a product incessantly simply because they read something on the Internet.

No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood.

AN EMPTY BARREL ALWAYS MAKES THE MOST NOISE.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 4:53:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spartan16:
I thought it was well known the 250 was a POS and should be avoided...?

Anyway, still sucks. Guess Sig can't polish a turd.


No shit, does nobody research a gun before buying?

The hamster died from blunt force trauma, liver damage and a brain hemorrhage, he said.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 5:40:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By Spartan16:
I thought it was well known the 250 was a POS and should be avoided...?

Anyway, still sucks. Guess Sig can't polish a turd.


No shit, does nobody research a gun before buying?



I did plenty of research and still got a jammomatic from S&W for my troubles.

As for the 250, either SIG gets it right the first time, or at the very least fixes it for the customer who gets stuck with a lemon; or pulls it from the market and hands out refunds.

It's got their name on it; they need to make it right.

Too much Internet research these days consists of either fanboy bullshit or unwarranted complaints from people who merely read this or that on the internet anyway and are just embellishing it and passing it on as factual.
No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood.

AN EMPTY BARREL ALWAYS MAKES THE MOST NOISE.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 6:43:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By America-first:
SNIP


Good post.

I can post a link to a 10+ page thread on another forum where people are complaining about the latest flavor of the month (coughm&pcough). Everything from accuracy problems, magazine issues to broken parts with very few rounds (less than 2k), and one former HSLD Tier 1 instructor calling them "shit."

Every company puts out turds, and if you buy a known turd, you will probably have a higher percentage of getting one.



Could you IM me the link to that thread? I despise the M&P and would like to read what problems others are now having and validating with the gun. I gave it three chances, and all 3 had issues. Every one of them had machining artifacts left on the slide that essentially formed small chisels. When fired, these chisels ate the sides of the dust cover and then buried themselves into the frame at the end of the slides rearward movement. Every single pistol I look at has these artifacts, and the subsequent dust cover being eaten away and the divets where the chiseled artifacts are slamming into the frame. I had 1 come to me rusted because of a piss poor Melonite application (when done wrong, melonite promotes rust, since it is salt based), 1 dropped mags randomly, the triggers all sucked hard ass. S&W is basically living up to their previous reputation when it comes to auto pistols, and apparently people are catching on and its starting to show.



You despise the S&W M&P - a series that has had overall excellent reviews - yet you bought.......a SIG P250. I seeeeeee.........

The hamster died from blunt force trauma, liver damage and a brain hemorrhage, he said.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 6:48:03 AM EST
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 6:59:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.


Yes, he did. He said his gun ran/runs fine.

The hamster died from blunt force trauma, liver damage and a brain hemorrhage, he said.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 7:03:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.


Yes, he did. He said his gun ran/runs fine.


I just re-read every post of the OP and I still can't see where he stated that the gun ran correctly?

I still haven't had coffee, maybe I have a reading comprehension issue this morning.



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Posted: 5/6/2011 9:13:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2011 9:53:28 AM EST by Coy_Greer]
Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.


Yes, he did. He said his gun ran/runs fine.



Umm, damn guy, did you even read the thread. Apparently you dont seeeeeee...as well as you fuckin think you do. With your apparent level of reading comprehension, Im gonna guess the screw eyed down syndrom face was you trying to seeeeeee...what was and was not said by me. I never said 1 fucking word about running the gun. And I doubt it would "run fine" when I can barely shake the gun and get the slide to release.Here is a hint. Before you speak for me, you should probably read and know what I did and didnt say in the first place.

Parabellum- This obviously means that YOUR comprehension is not the comprehension that is the problem here. Thanks for actually reading what I said in the first place.

ETA: I did dump the piece of shit yesterday, and picked up a New Gen4 Glock 19. Took it to the range, ran 250 rounds of Speer +P 124 Grain Gold Dot and 100 rounds of Winchester Q4318 NATO through it. There were absolutly no issues or malfunctions. All rounds fed, fired, extracted, and ejected fine, and none of them hit me in the head. The grip was perfect for me. This particular Gen 4 worked perfectly with full power service ammunition, which I expected it would. Overall I like the Gen 4 better than the Gen3, and this particular example is definetly a keeper. In case anyone is wondering, the manufacture date was January 25, gun had 04 spring installed from the factory, serial number range series is RATXXX.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 9:48:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.


Yes, he did. He said his gun ran/runs fine.



Umm, damn guy, did you even read the thread. Apparently you dont seeeeeee...as well as you fuckin think you do. With your apparent level of reading comprehension, Im gonna guess the screw eyed down syndrom face was you trying to seeeeeee...what was and was not said by me. I never said 1 fucking word about running the gun. And I doubt it would "run fine" when I can barely shake the gun and get the slide to release.Here is a hint. Before you speak for me, you should probably read and know what I did and didnt say in the first place.

Parabellum- This obviously means that YOUR comprehension is not the comprehension that is the problem here. Thanks for actually reading what I said in the first place.


Ah, ok that makes sense...it would SUCK to be in the middle of a mag change and have the slide release before the mag was fully seated.

I have a SigPro SP2340 with a swiss frame, and a 2010 built Sig556 that is also absolutely perfect....It really saddens me to see so many people have problems with Sig these days.

God I can remember back in 04, if you asked "What about the Sig XXX" people would respond with an instant "Its a Sig, buy it you idiot", but now it seems that Sig is like Ruger and many other brands, where its a bit of a gamble to see if you are going to get one that is up to spec, or one that has problems.


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Tell em that God's gonna cut you down."
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Posted: 5/6/2011 10:01:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.


Yes, he did. He said his gun ran/runs fine.



Umm, damn guy, did you even read the thread. Apparently you dont seeeeeee...as well as you fuckin think you do. With your apparent level of reading comprehension, Im gonna guess the screw eyed down syndrom face was you trying to seeeeeee...what was and was not said by me. I never said 1 fucking word about running the gun. And I doubt it would "run fine" when I can barely shake the gun and get the slide to release.Here is a hint. Before you speak for me, you should probably read and know what I did and didnt say in the first place.

Parabellum- This obviously means that YOUR comprehension is not the comprehension that is the problem here. Thanks for actually reading what I said in the first place.

ETA: I did dump the piece of shit yesterday, and picked up a New Gen4 Glock 19. Took it to the range, ran 250 rounds of Speer +P 124 Grain Gold Dot and 100 rounds of Winchester Q4318 NATO through it. There were absolutly no issues or malfunctions. All rounds fed, fired, extracted, and ejected fine, and none of them hit me in the head. The grip was perfect for me. This particular Gen 4 worked perfectly with full power service ammunition, which I expected it would. Overall I like the Gen 4 better than the Gen3, and this particular example is definetly a keeper. In case anyone is wondering, the manufacture date was January 25, gun had 04 spring installed from the factory, serial number range series is RATXXX.



I just reread the posts. I missed that it was your 239 that you said ran flawlessly. Apologies for that.

But wow, man, you need to calm down. You're gonna die young with your attitude. No excuse for that sort of short fuse.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 10:31:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By XMM:
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
OP: Did the gun run correctly?

I see the problem you described, but you never stated if the gun ran right or not.


Yes, he did. He said his gun ran/runs fine.



Umm, damn guy, did you even read the thread. Apparently you dont seeeeeee...as well as you fuckin think you do. With your apparent level of reading comprehension, Im gonna guess the screw eyed down syndrom face was you trying to seeeeeee...what was and was not said by me. I never said 1 fucking word about running the gun. And I doubt it would "run fine" when I can barely shake the gun and get the slide to release.Here is a hint. Before you speak for me, you should probably read and know what I did and didnt say in the first place.

Parabellum- This obviously means that YOUR comprehension is not the comprehension that is the problem here. Thanks for actually reading what I said in the first place.

ETA: I did dump the piece of shit yesterday, and picked up a New Gen4 Glock 19. Took it to the range, ran 250 rounds of Speer +P 124 Grain Gold Dot and 100 rounds of Winchester Q4318 NATO through it. There were absolutly no issues or malfunctions. All rounds fed, fired, extracted, and ejected fine, and none of them hit me in the head. The grip was perfect for me. This particular Gen 4 worked perfectly with full power service ammunition, which I expected it would. Overall I like the Gen 4 better than the Gen3, and this particular example is definetly a keeper. In case anyone is wondering, the manufacture date was January 25, gun had 04 spring installed from the factory, serial number range series is RATXXX.



You're gonna die young with your attitude.



LOL, oh yeah? If you only knew how wrong you are. If I aint dead by now, considering the history of my previous 34 years, then I guess my attitude probably isnt gonna be what gets me killed in the next 34.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 1:38:38 PM EST
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 3:44:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2011 3:48:34 PM EST by Coy_Greer]
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


There are really only 2 brands that arent always embroiled in flames wars, with lovers and haters of their respective brand slinging shit. Those are HK and FN. The only thing you hear about HK, is customer service. You hardly ever hear of or see weapon issues. Same with FN, they have 3 modern mainstream pistols out now, the FNP, FNX, And the FN45. People that own them never seem to have any complaints. I honestly believe that the issues people are and were having with the Gen 4 9mm Glocks, was due to useing the lightest, cheapest crap ammo available. The Gen 4 was designed to run with 124 Grain, 1200 FPS Nato ball and LEO +P rounds. I just bought one, droped some clp in it, loaded it up with Nato/+P ammo, and it ran like a damn top. I imagine if I were useing the weak dirty shit, I would have had a problem or two. For some this may be considered a failure, but im okay with it. I would much rather have a Glock that is designed and able to digest and operate on a steady diet of 9mm Nato/+P,and have to feed it quality 124 grain WInchester Nato Spec and full power Ball/hollowpoint, than one that is sprung low enough to run all the severly underpowered, light weight US/Russian bottom shelf branded product ammo that the ammo companies put out for the guy who will only buy the cheapest available. A gun sprung to that standard is gonna be beating itself to death if and when you decide to get serious and start useing Full power hot 9mm loaded to Europen/Nato Specs. Anyway, the Sigs are now all sold except for my Wife's 229 and my 239, both from 2002. They have been replaced with an HK, a Smith no lock 442,A Gen 4 Glock 19, and in a few days an FNX in 9mm when it comes in. As long as this post/these pictures keep on person from having to go through the bullshit I did with Sig, or keeps them from giving SIg any money for their junk, then Ill be happy with the results. Thanks for reading this thread. Oh, and before I leave, I would just like to say......

FUCK YOU SIG SAUER!

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Posted: 5/6/2011 4:00:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


There are really only 2 brands that arent always embroiled in flames wars, with lovers and haters of their respective brand slinging shit. Those are HK and FN. The only thing you hear about HK, is customer service. You hardly ever hear of or see weapon issues. Same with FN, they have 3 modern mainstream pistols out now, the FNP, FNX, And the FN45. People that own them never seem to have any complaints. I honestly believe that the issues people are and were having with the Gen 4 9mm Glocks, was due to useing the lightest, cheapest crap ammo available. The Gen 4 was designed to run with 124 Grain, 1200 FPS Nato ball and LEO +P rounds. I just bought one, droped some clp in it, loaded it up with Nato/+P ammo, and it ran like a damn top. I imagine if I were useing the weak dirty shit, I would have had a problem or two. For some this may be considered a failure, but im okay with it. I would much rather have a Glock that is designed and able to digest and operate on a steady diet of 9mm Nato/+P,and have to feed it quality 124 grain WInchester Nato Spec and full power Ball/hollowpoint, than one that is sprung low enough to run all the severly underpowered, light weight US/Russian bottom shelf branded product ammo that the ammo companies put out for the guy who will only buy the cheapest available. A gun sprung to that standard is gonna be beating itself to death if and when you decide to get serious and start useing Full power hot 9mm loaded to Europen/Nato Specs. Anyway, the Sigs are now all sold except for my Wife's 229 and my 239, both from 2002. They have been replaced with an HK, a Smith no lock 442,A Gen 4 Glock 19, and in a few days an FNX in 9mm when it comes in. As long as this post/these pictures keep on person from having to go through the bullshit I did with Sig, or keeps them from giving SIg any money for their junk, then Ill be happy with the results. Thanks for reading this thread. Oh, and before I leave, I would just like to say......

FUCK YOU SIG SAUER!



You pay alot more for HK's, but they are very consistent. My only complaint on them is spare parts and spare parts price, though they've gotten better in the last 2 years for spare parts availability. Glock is having some hiccups with the Gen 4 guns, but I'd trust any or their Gen 3 guns right now, and spare parts for Glocks are ridiculously cheap and available everywhere online.




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Posted: 5/6/2011 5:01:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


There are really only 2 brands that arent always embroiled in flames wars, with lovers and haters of their respective brand slinging shit. Those are HK and FN. The only thing you hear about HK, is customer service. You hardly ever hear of or see weapon issues. Same with FN, they have 3 modern mainstream pistols out now, the FNP, FNX, And the FN45. People that own them never seem to have any complaints. I honestly believe that the issues people are and were having with the Gen 4 9mm Glocks, was due to useing the lightest, cheapest crap ammo available. The Gen 4 was designed to run with 124 Grain, 1200 FPS Nato ball and LEO +P rounds. I just bought one, droped some clp in it, loaded it up with Nato/+P ammo, and it ran like a damn top. I imagine if I were useing the weak dirty shit, I would have had a problem or two. For some this may be considered a failure, but im okay with it. I would much rather have a Glock that is designed and able to digest and operate on a steady diet of 9mm Nato/+P,and have to feed it quality 124 grain WInchester Nato Spec and full power Ball/hollowpoint, than one that is sprung low enough to run all the severly underpowered, light weight US/Russian bottom shelf branded product ammo that the ammo companies put out for the guy who will only buy the cheapest available. A gun sprung to that standard is gonna be beating itself to death if and when you decide to get serious and start useing Full power hot 9mm loaded to Europen/Nato Specs. Anyway, the Sigs are now all sold except for my Wife's 229 and my 239, both from 2002. They have been replaced with an HK, a Smith no lock 442,A Gen 4 Glock 19, and in a few days an FNX in 9mm when it comes in. As long as this post/these pictures keep on person from having to go through the bullshit I did with Sig, or keeps them from giving SIg any money for their junk, then Ill be happy with the results. Thanks for reading this thread. Oh, and before I leave, I would just like to say......

FUCK YOU SIG SAUER!



An EXTREMELY satisfied FNP .45 owner chiming in, echoing the OP.

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Posted: 5/6/2011 5:06:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


There are really only 2 brands that arent always embroiled in flames wars, with lovers and haters of their respective brand slinging shit. Those are HK and FN. The only thing you hear about HK, is customer service. You hardly ever hear of or see weapon issues. Same with FN, they have 3 modern mainstream pistols out now, the FNP, FNX, And the FN45. People that own them never seem to have any complaints. I honestly believe that the issues people are and were having with the Gen 4 9mm Glocks, was due to useing the lightest, cheapest crap ammo available. The Gen 4 was designed to run with 124 Grain, 1200 FPS Nato ball and LEO +P rounds. I just bought one, droped some clp in it, loaded it up with Nato/+P ammo, and it ran like a damn top. I imagine if I were useing the weak dirty shit, I would have had a problem or two. For some this may be considered a failure, but im okay with it. I would much rather have a Glock that is designed and able to digest and operate on a steady diet of 9mm Nato/+P,and have to feed it quality 124 grain WInchester Nato Spec and full power Ball/hollowpoint, than one that is sprung low enough to run all the severly underpowered, light weight US/Russian bottom shelf branded product ammo that the ammo companies put out for the guy who will only buy the cheapest available. A gun sprung to that standard is gonna be beating itself to death if and when you decide to get serious and start useing Full power hot 9mm loaded to Europen/Nato Specs. Anyway, the Sigs are now all sold except for my Wife's 229 and my 239, both from 2002. They have been replaced with an HK, a Smith no lock 442,A Gen 4 Glock 19, and in a few days an FNX in 9mm when it comes in. As long as this post/these pictures keep on person from having to go through the bullshit I did with Sig, or keeps them from giving SIg any money for their junk, then Ill be happy with the results. Thanks for reading this thread. Oh, and before I leave, I would just like to say......

FUCK YOU SIG SAUER!



My sentiments exactly about Sig products built after 2004. Earlier ones were some of the best modern pistols money could buy. You still can get a good one it is just hit or miss and I don't like gambling, never have, so I chose from solid manufacturers with good customer service. My Glocks are Gen 3's, my Springfield's are 1911's, and my S&W's are M&P's. All of those companies stand behind their products till no end. I don't have any experience with FN or HK. I might have to give FN a try though with the advent of the FNP .45. HK, I don't know. I hear they hate their customers.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 5:53:08 PM EST
My P250 is fine.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 6:36:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


Are you serious?

Coy, I usually agree with you 100%, but I don't on this. You took a sample of one, and a known POS (P250), and are completely dismissing a brand.

I had a Gen3 G19 that was the biggest POS service pistol that I have ever owned, but people still sing it's praises. That's OK, because I know that mine was a small sample and I have seen plenty of Glocks that work great, just as you have SIGs.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 7:07:51 PM EST
Looking at current Sig models and how they make them today just reminds me of Cadillac (GM) and the way they did things over a long period of time. This of course does not include the X-Line pistols.
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Posted: 5/6/2011 7:34:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2011 7:36:48 PM EST by tfod]
Even the Swiss Army is ditching the Sig and going Glock.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/05/03/swiss-military-to-adopt-glock-g17-and-g19/

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Posted: 5/6/2011 9:35:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


Are you serious?

Coy, I usually agree with you 100%, but I don't on this. You took a sample of one, and a known POS (P250), and are completely dismissing a brand.

I had a Gen3 G19 that was the biggest POS service pistol that I have ever owned, but people still sing it's praises. That's OK, because I know that mine was a small sample and I have seen plenty of Glocks that work great, just as you have SIGs.


See, this isnt about sample sizing, or the shitty design causeing malfunctions. It is about simple machining and the inability to fix what they fuck up. ALL sigs go through the machining process, so this could have shown up on a High End sig just as easily. Honestly, can you look at the original pictures and say that wouldnt piss you off a little. But, what really sealed the deal for me, was the final email, where I was being told that the slide stop notch is to their standard, and the implied "we have your money, you own the turd now. Chew it hard, itsTough Shit". If that is to their standard, you have to wonder how bad something needs to be so it dosent meet their standard.

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Posted: 5/9/2011 4:06:52 AM EST
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Posted: 5/9/2011 4:19:13 AM EST
I had one sig that I bought certified used that broke a spring which is what I might expect it if were used so no big deal, I called sig around 4 pm and by 10 am I had a complete spring kit in my hands no charge
I wish I was the man my dog thinks I am
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Posted: 5/9/2011 5:05:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2011 5:10:45 AM EST by America-first]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Coy_Greer:
See, this isnt about sample sizing, or the shitty design causeing malfunctions. It is about simple machining and the inability to fix what they fuck up. ALL sigs go through the machining process, so this could have shown up on a High End sig just as easily. Honestly, can you look at the original pictures and say that wouldnt piss you off a little. But, what really sealed the deal for me, was the final email, where I was being told that the slide stop notch is to their standard, and the implied "we have your money, you own the turd now. Chew it hard, itsTough Shit". If that is to their standard, you have to wonder how bad something needs to be so it dosent meet their standard.


There's a lot of that going around the industry these days.


Unfortunately; that is 100% correct.

Personally, I believe that the quality of the handguns a manufacturer will ship these days; is only as good as the last pistol you bought from them.

Various levels of "customer service" after the fact in lieu of acceptable quality control during production; is the name of the game these days.

"Send it back and we'll make it right" is no substitute for "we make them right, buy with confidence".
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Posted: 5/9/2011 5:11:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By jmreagan:
I don't have much confidence in new Sigs at all. If I was given one I would sell it for something more reliable with better customer service. Glock, Springfield, and M&P come to mind.


Are you serious?

Coy, I usually agree with you 100%, but I don't on this. You took a sample of one, and a known POS (P250), and are completely dismissing a brand.

I had a Gen3 G19 that was the biggest POS service pistol that I have ever owned, but people still sing it's praises. That's OK, because I know that mine was a small sample and I have seen plenty of Glocks that work great, just as you have SIGs.


Yes, I am serious. Did you give Glock a chance to make it right? I'm sure if you sent it to Glock,. they would have fixed the problem and restored all confidence in the pistol. I had a problem with a G27. They replaced damned near everything on the pistol on their dime. It is flawless now.That is the difference with the companies I named above and shitty companies like Sig.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 5:50:24 AM EST
I'd still walk into a gunstore and buy a Sig, I'd just need to look it over first if it was a newer model.

As long as I could inspect it, I'm confident I could spot any problems before I purchase.

Still some of the best ergos and triggers on the market, imho.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 7:41:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:
I'd still walk into a gunstore and buy a Sig, I'd just need to look it over first if it was a newer model.

As long as I could inspect it, I'm confident I could spot any problems before I purchase.

Still some of the best ergos and triggers on the market, imho.


True, I have no problem buying any of the older classic models. In fact, I'm shopping for one right now.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 11:46:12 AM EST
These have been reliable to date.

Revolution Carry. A few years old. Rounds not sure. Range toy.
P220 Carry Dark Elite. New about 400 rounds. No problem
P229 in 357Sig. Old. Was winter carry
P230 Old. Summer carry.

I have a P6. Just to have one.

I sold two P250's to offset the P220.

A 45ACP compact and a 9mm compact. They shot ok, just couldn't adapt to the revolver style trigger.




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Posted: 5/9/2011 12:23:27 PM EST
I've personally noticed a drop in Sig quality over the last few years. I made a blog post about it.

http://militaryarms.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-has-happened-to-sig.html

Others who like Sig USA products claim the opposite. All I have to go on are my own experiences, and as of late I've not been impressed with Sig quality or performance.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 3:13:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By America-first:
SNIP


Good post.

I can post a link to a 10+ page thread on another forum where people are complaining about the latest flavor of the month (coughm&pcough). Everything from accuracy problems, magazine issues to broken parts with very few rounds (less than 2k), and one former HSLD Tier 1 instructor calling them "shit."

Every company puts out turds, and if you buy a known turd, you will probably have a higher percentage of getting one.



I wouldn't mind seeing the link. I've only got 700rds through my M&P since January but it's been perfect so far, even with my reloads.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 4:10:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By FAC:
I've personally noticed a drop in Sig quality over the last few years. I made a blog post about it.

http://militaryarms.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-has-happened-to-sig.html

Others who like Sig USA products claim the opposite. All I have to go on are my own experiences, and as of late I've not been impressed with Sig quality or performance.


FAC... Did your P220 have the stainless steel slide with an internal extractor? If so, they have always been a problem and that is why SIG switched to the external extractors on the P220 w/ the stainless slides, just like all of the other models.

My SIG experience is limited to the Classic P-Series line. I shoot around 10k rounds a year out of them and have not experienced a drop in quality. I have 2 newer (made in Dec/Nov 2010) P239 9mm's, and a German P228R (June 2009), that have been perfect. My work gun is a P226R 9mm that has well over 25k rounds through it and not a single problem. I have never had a part break, and I can't remember having a malfunction that was not induced by me for training purposes. I do clean and relube after every time I use them, and perform PM when needed. My Exeter SIGs do have better triggers and finishes than the German models. The P228R's trigger was terrible, but is smoothing out with close to 2k rounds through it, and the P225 has always been the worst. The P239's triggers were great out of the box. My wifes SAS w/ the SRT is the best DA/SA trigger that I have every felt and the P226's is very smooth.

IMO, if you stick to the classic series, you should be GTG. Are there lemons? Sure, but every manufacture has them. I personally haven't seen the problems that some report, and I wouldn't continue to buy and use them for work, as ccw's, or for my wifes protection if I did. I have seen more parts breakage and malfuntions from M&P's and Glocks than I ever have of classic SIGs, new or old.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 4:11:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I wouldn't mind seeing the link. I've only got 700rds through my M&P since January but it's been perfect so far, even with my reloads.


PM sent.
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Posted: 5/9/2011 4:34:20 PM EST
Just picked up a P226 USPSA about two weeks ago, put three hundred rounds of mixed ammo through it last weekend with a single issue. ( 150 rounds of PMC Bronze 115 gr. 100 rounds of cheap Norinco 9mm and 50 rounds of 142 gr. JHP) I am happy.

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Posted: 5/10/2011 11:21:30 AM EST
Most of you know how I feel about Sig these days. They flat out SUCK ass!!! I posted many of my problem with newer Sigs and posted pictures of the problems. Pre 2004 Sigs are still some of the best pistols ever made but anything coming out of their factory today is garbage. Plus their prices have sky rocketed and for what? More shitty quality control!
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Posted: 5/10/2011 2:03:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Most of you know how I feel about Sig these days. They flat out SUCK ass!!! I posted many of my problem with newer Sigs and posted pictures of the problems. Pre 2004 Sigs are still some of the best pistols ever made but anything coming out of their factory today is garbage. Plus their prices have sky rocketed and for what? More shitty quality control!


Huh... I must be the luckiest man alive! All of SIGs work great, and I keep on paying less for them than I did before. Several years ago when I traded in a "standard" P226 in on a P226R, the price on the "R" model was $799. The P228R that I bought last August was $699 and the P239 that I bought a couple of months ago was $609. All were NIB and have NS. The "custom shop" 2-tone P239 SAS w/ NS & SRT trigger that I bought my wife in December of last year, was the same price that I paid for my P226R. It's obvious that your shopping skills suck.

Please tell me how new SIGs "suck ass" compared to other brands now. If my armorer told me that I could no longer carry a SIG, the only weapon brand that I would buy to replace them is H&K. The SIGs (new or old) and H&K's are above all others from my experience.
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