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Posted: 4/17/2011 2:12:18 PM EDT
 with the new keltec .22 magnum that holds 30 rounds vs the FN pistol that holds i think 20 rounds i was wondering about the ballistic differences/similarities of the two rounds in pistol use. the .22 magnum ammo is more widely available and cheaper. does the 5.7 offer much of a ballistic advantage to justify the cost? thanks
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Posted: 4/17/2011 2:18:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Velocity of .22mag from a pistol = ~1250fps.
Velocity of 40gr 5.7x28 from FN FiveSeven = ~1850fps. You decide. |
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Posted: 4/17/2011 2:49:57 PM EDT
[#2]
review load information from the manufacturers. I found neglible difference between 22 WMR and 5.7 energies with similar weight bullets. Bullet selection, of course, is broader in the 5.7 since you can reload it, and most 22 mags are loaded with simple LRN or lead HPs. RE reloading, stickin rifle projos in a handgun could create "armor piercing" controversy.
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Posted: 4/17/2011 3:00:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
review load information from the manufacturers. I found neglible difference between 22 WMR and 5.7 energies with similar weight bullets. Bullet selection, of course, is broader in the 5.7 since you can reload it, and most 22 mags are loaded with simple LRN or lead HPs. RE reloading, stickin rifle projos in a handgun could create "armor piercing" controversy. FYI, .22magnum load information is nearly always from a 16"+ rifle length barrel. |
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Posted: 4/17/2011 5:53:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
review load information from the manufacturers. I found neglible difference between 22 WMR and 5.7 energies with similar weight bullets. Bullet selection, of course, is broader in the 5.7 since you can reload it, and most 22 mags are loaded with simple LRN or lead HPs. RE reloading, stickin rifle projos in a handgun could create "armor piercing" controversy. You haven't reviewed loads from Elite Ammunition then. They push heavier projectiles faster than the factory FN loads including SS190. Even if you do compare the civilian factory FN loads to 22 magnum, the 5.7x28mm loads still perform 30% better. Both shoot straight/flat and have a high capacity, however, the similarities stop there. |
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Posted: 4/18/2011 4:53:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
review load information from the manufacturers. I found neglible difference between 22 WMR and 5.7 energies with similar weight bullets. Bullet selection, of course, is broader in the 5.7 since you can reload it, and most 22 mags are loaded with simple LRN or lead HPs. RE reloading, stickin rifle projos in a handgun could create "armor piercing" controversy. FYI, .22magnum load information is nearly always from a 16"+ rifle length barrel.  that is what i found, 22 mag ballistics are rifle based, hence my confusion here.
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Posted: 4/18/2011 3:46:34 PM EDT
[#6]
1st question would be what is your intended use for the .22mag or the 5.7? Home defense the 5.7 (if this was the only option). Plinking, 22LR. Target shooting, tossup between my five seven and the ruger mark 3 .22LR (for small calibers). IMHO i've never seen a need for .22mag. But again it begs the question. What are you going to do with it or what do you expect it to do? On another note, i've seen the centerfire 5.7 go bang everytime. Not something i can say for any brand/make/model of a rimfire.
edit for the post below. My five seven is among the most accurate out of the box handguns i've ever fired, zero complaints with accuracy. |
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Posted: 4/18/2011 4:26:43 PM EDT
[#7]
I was all set to get one of the5.7 pistols for a short range prairie dog gun, until I did some research on their accuracy. From what I found the 5.7 rifle shoots great, but the pistol leave much to be desired.
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Posted: 4/18/2011 5:00:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I was all set to get one of the5.7 pistols for a short range prairie dog gun, until I did some research on their accuracy. From what I found the 5.7 rifle shoots great, but the pistol leave much to be desired. What research did you find that implied the FsN had poor accuracy? Even those who hate the 5.7x28mm round would agree it's far more accurate than any other common service handgun. It also has a higher capacity, less recoil, just as reliable as my Glock, and gives you the ability to defeat virtually any body armor with loads from EA.com. 100 yard shots with irons is a breeze and EA.com makes a mount for a Mini RDS. |
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Posted: 4/18/2011 5:25:12 PM EDT
[#9]
 i would like to see the two rounds ballistics out of the same length pistol barrel?
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Posted: 4/18/2011 5:48:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
i would like to see the two rounds ballistics out of the same length pistol barrel?Kel-Tec PMR 4.3" barrel Calibers: .22 Magnum (.22WMR) Energy (40gr): 138ft-lbs 187J FiveseveN Pistol 4.75 inch barrel 40gr EA Protector 2,092fps-389 ft LBS 28gr EA Trident T6 2,570fps-411 fl LBS |
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Posted: 4/19/2011 1:33:15 PM EDT
[#11]
If I had to use one for self defense, it would be the FiveseveN loaded with the 40 grain EA. Even though the energy is less, the penetration should be better(I would shoot them both into some gel to compare just to be sure though). Id rather have 20 rounds that can reach the vitals than 30 rounds that might not ever get where they need to go.
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Posted: 4/19/2011 3:32:27 PM EDT
[#12]
I'll stop the ballistic babble and go with what I have seen.
I regularly shoot my ps90 in 5.7 normally blue tip on small 3 in steel plates at 50 yards when hit the plates normally fly up 10-12 inches and have a nice little crater in them (even if I use the hollow points) Years ago I used a family members 22 mag contender with a 16" barrel on the same plates the solid bullets shattered on impact leaving a small dent and splatter of lead. You of course wills say that's bullet construction............and you are right.........but the 5.7 has better bullet construction and is faster than the 22 mag in fact ballistically I believe that the "comparison" is total internet armchair fluff the 5.7 is in no way comparable to the 22 mag and should be compared to 221 fire ball or other wild cat center fire rounds Also remember that the 5.7 is a NATO accepted round like 308, 223, & 9mm this gives it a huge boost in my opinion. |
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Posted: 4/19/2011 7:47:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
the FN pistol that holds i think 20 rounds The Five-seveN magazine capacity is 20+1 rounds with the standard magazine, or 30+1 with an extended magazine that sticks out 1.5 inches from the base of the grip. Quoted:
If I had to use one for self defense, it would be the FiveseveN loaded with the 40 grain EA. Even though the energy is less EA's 40-grain 5.7x28mm load (out of the Five-seveN pistol) actually produces about three times the muzzle energy of a 40-grain .22 WMR bullet out of the Kel-Tec PMR-30 pistol. Quoted:
i would like to see the two rounds ballistics out of the same length pistol barrel?Kel-Tec claims 1,230 ft/s out of their PMR-30 pistol, with a 40-grain bullet. EA's 40-grain 5.7x28mm loads have been independently chronographed at over 2,000 ft/s out of the Five-seveN pistol, so the velocity difference between the two rounds (using identical bullet weights) is about 800 ft/s. With the lighter 30-grain bullets, the EA 5.7x28mm loads are capable of 2,500+ ft/s out of the Five-seveN pistol, again, as independently chronographed. |
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Posted: 4/19/2011 7:52:56 PM EDT
[#14]
On a similar note, Brassfetcher recently conducted ballistic gelatin testing (with high speed video) using EA's new 50-grain 5.7x28mm Pro II load:
http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv Fired from the Five-seveN pistol, the bullet penetrated and exited the calibrated gelatin block. For reference, Brassfetcher uses 16-inch blocks; the bullet is also visibly expanded as it exits the block. |
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Posted: 4/19/2011 10:07:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
review load information from the manufacturers. I found neglible difference between 22 WMR and 5.7 energies with similar weight bullets. Bullet selection, of course, is broader in the 5.7 since you can reload it, and most 22 mags are loaded with simple LRN or lead HPs. RE reloading, stickin rifle projos in a handgun could create "armor piercing" controversy. FYI, .22magnum load information is nearly always from a 16"+ rifle length barrel. that is what i found, 22 mag ballistics are rifle based, hence my confusion here.Yes make sure you use comprable barrel lengths, as I did. The data is out there. |
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Posted: 4/19/2011 10:47:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
review load information from the manufacturers. I found neglible difference between 22 WMR and 5.7 energies with similar weight bullets. Bullet selection, of course, is broader in the 5.7 since you can reload it, and most 22 mags are loaded with simple LRN or lead HPs. RE reloading, stickin rifle projos in a handgun could create "armor piercing" controversy. FYI, .22magnum load information is nearly always from a 16"+ rifle length barrel. that is what i found, 22 mag ballistics are rifle based, hence my confusion here.Yes make sure you use comprable barrel lengths, as I did. The data is out there. Would you mind posting the data that shows the difference between 5.7x28mm and 22 WMR being negligible? This is the biggest problem with the 5.7x28mm detractors. Anyone who doesn't like the round will post things like "data I once read" or "someone once told me". They never say, "here is a report from a verifiable source that proves........" The whole 5.7 = 22wmr argument came from DocRoberts who only tested factory FN 5.7x28mm loads and compared them a 22wmr rifle with an 18" barrel. Even under those circumstances the 5.7x28mm still came out 30% better. |
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Posted: 4/20/2011 4:28:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Excel Arms is supposed to be releasing some new firearms in 5.7x28, including two pistols:
http://www.excelarms.com/newproducts.html Onr of them, the X-5.7P, has a 25-rd. magazine with an 8" barrel. |
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Posted: 4/20/2011 1:51:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
the FN pistol that holds i think 20 rounds The Five-seveN magazine capacity is 20+1 rounds with the standard magazine, or 30+1 with an extended magazine that sticks out 1.5 inches from the base of the grip. Quoted:
If I had to use one for self defense, it would be the FiveseveN loaded with the 40 grain EA. Even though the energy is less EA's 40-grain 5.7x28mm load (out of the Five-seveN pistol) actually produces about three times the muzzle energy of a 40-grain .22 WMR bullet out of the Kel-Tec PMR-30 pistol. Quoted:
i would like to see the two rounds ballistics out of the same length pistol barrel?Kel-Tec claims 1,230 ft/s out of their PMR-30 pistol, with a 40-grain bullet. EA's 40-grain 5.7x28mm loads have been independently chronographed at over 2,000 ft/s out of the Five-seveN pistol, so the velocity difference between the two rounds (using identical bullet weights) is about 800 ft/s. With the lighter 30-grain bullets, the EA 5.7x28mm loads are capable of 2,500+ ft/s out of the Five-seveN pistol, again, as independently chronographed. I was talking in reference to the lighter 5.7 round. Quoted:
On a similar note, Brassfetcher recently conducted ballistic gelatin testing (with high speed video) using EA's new 50-grain 5.7x28mm Pro II load: http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv Fired from the Five-seveN pistol, the bullet penetrated and exited the calibrated gelatin block. For reference, Brassfetcher uses 16-inch blocks; the bullet is also visibly expanded as it exits the block. that is actually quite impressive. Anyone know the expanded diameter? Also, just a thought... I wonder if the 5.7 has enough velocity for the hydrostatic shock to do legitimate damage? At what velocity does hydrostatic shock become effective? |
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Posted: 4/20/2011 4:08:08 PM EDT
[#19]
i ve been doing some research on this my self .as far as accuracy the 5.7 out my buddys fn is very accurate .i just cant get over the price tag on the fn.excellent quality gun just price to high for me .as far as the 5.7 being armor peircing is bull there is only two rounds produced that can do it & civilians cant get them .the blue tip load is a varmit rd same bullet used in .223 40. gr vamx it explodes when it hits bone or hard surfaces .i will own one of these days would like to see other pistol builders . the 22mag is a great rd & you can also get the 40 gr vmax in it .it just has half the velocity .of the 5.7 .they are both great rds ones just alittle better for home defense .
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Posted: 4/20/2011 5:10:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
i ve been doing some research on this my self .as far as accuracy the 5.7 out my buddys fn is very accurate .i just cant get over the price tag on the fn.excellent quality gun just price to high for me .as far as the 5.7 being armor peircing is bull there is only two rounds produced that can do it & civilians cant get them .the blue tip load is a varmit rd same bullet used in .223 40. gr vamx it explodes when it hits bone or hard surfaces .i will own one of these days would like to see other pistol builders . the 22mag is a great rd & you can also get the 40 gr vmax in it .it just has half the velocity .of the 5.7 .they are both great rds ones just alittle better for home defense . Elite Ammunition sells 5.7x28mm loads to civilians that defeat level IIIa body armor (same as the LEO only SS190). I use SS197 for training but I carry loads from Elite. |
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Posted: 4/20/2011 7:25:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
I was talking in reference to the lighter 5.7 round. The lighter EA 5.7x28mm loads (e.g. S4M or T6) also produce about three times the muzzle energy of .22 WMR when both rounds are fired out of a pistol barrel; even FN's lighter loads (e.g. SS195LF) produce about two times the muzzle energy of .22 WMR when both rounds are fired out of a pistol barrel. Quoted:
that is actually quite impressive. Anyone know the expanded diameter? A complete review of three different EA 5.7x28mm ammunition types (conducted by Brassfetcher) is upcoming. In the meantime, here are all three of the high speed videos from the testing: http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_S4M.wmv http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_PFP_28gr_T-6.wmv |
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Posted: 4/21/2011 10:08:06 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was talking in reference to the lighter 5.7 round. The lighter EA 5.7x28mm loads (e.g. S4M or T6) also produce about three times the muzzle energy of .22 WMR when both rounds are fired out of a pistol barrel; even FN's lighter loads (e.g. SS195LF) produce about two times the muzzle energy of .22 WMR when both rounds are fired out of a pistol barrel. Quoted:
that is actually quite impressive. Anyone know the expanded diameter? A complete review of three different EA 5.7x28mm ammunition types (conducted by Brassfetcher) is upcoming. In the meantime, here are all three of the high speed videos from the testing: http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_S4M.wmv http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_PFP_28gr_T-6.wmv Ok, maybe I want clear... I meant the 40gr 5.7 has less energy than the 28gr 5.7, but penetrates deeper(momentum), so I would carry that, or the protector II (50 gr) since penetration is where the 5.7 is ussually lacking. Thanx for the links btw, very cool... looks like I was wrong, the 28gr penetrates about the same as the ptctrII. Whichever one had the larger opened diameter(doesnt look like the 28gr expands) is the one Id carry, but I dont own a fiveseven yet, so...
edit, At the end of the day, not really a comparison to .22mag. |
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Posted: 4/25/2011 8:12:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Yes make sure you use comprable barrel lengths, as I did. The data is out there. From similar platforms, with the same projectile weight, the 5.7mm achieves roughly 50% more muzzle velocity than the .22 Magnum. I do not know who's website you are reading, but it is damned ignorant to claim these cartridges offer "the same" or even "similar" performance. Besides performance, an even bigger difference between these two cartridges is centerfire to rimfire. For hunting and/or varmint use since the .22mag is rimfire, it maybe legal in seasons and/or places where the centerfire 5.7x28mm is not. For defensive weapons, I strongly prefer centerfire cartridges. So in classic arfcom style, get both, as they are quite different firearms. |
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Posted: 4/25/2011 8:49:26 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes make sure you use comprable barrel lengths, as I did. The data is out there. From similar platforms, with the same projectile weight, the 5.7mm achieves roughly 50% more muzzle velocity than the .22 Magnum. I do not know who's website you are reading, but it is damned ignorant to claim these cartridges offer "the same" or even "similar" performance. Besides performance, an even bigger difference between these two cartridges is centerfire to rimfire. For hunting and/or varmint use since the .22mag is rimfire, it maybe legal in seasons and/or places where the centerfire 5.7x28mm is not. For defensive weapons, I strongly prefer centerfire cartridges. So in classic arfcom style, get both, as they are quite different firearms. +5.7 They are nowhere near the same. Show me a .22mag punch a hole in CRISAT at 200m. Not going to happen. |
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