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MilMatch
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Posted: 8/11/2010 11:56:02 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
For those of you who have an interest in the FEG Hi Power and Hi Power style pistols, I spent most of the winter writing a definitive article about the FEG and Argentine Hi Powers. You'll find them on a blog a friend and I started at http://feghp.blogspot.com/. It starts out with a fairly short article on the Argie FM 90's and if you'll scroll down to the article entitled "Decoding the FEG Hi Power" you'll find I basically wrote a book on them. As a Word document it was 16 pages long and has 23 photos. Be ready for a long read if you go there. I originally started work on it as a post for internet gun forums like AR 15.com, but it grew so long and had so many photos I just couldn't make it work as such and had to go to a blog format. Hope you enjoy it and I hope I'm not violating any rules by posting this here.

And yes, I actually own a REAL Browning Hi-Power....a 1979 Sport Model with beer can sights.

MilMatch
shadawick
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Posted: 8/12/2010 12:08:21 AM
Thanks, I'll check this out tomorrow!

I'm interested in a new Hi-Power variant to go along with my Nazi proofed Browning.
DrMark
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Posted: 8/12/2010 12:27:01 AM
tag for later reading and comment

(I have Inglis, FN, and FEG Hi-Powers)

RIP - John Dean "Jeff" Cooper
RIP - Wayne Henry Cobb Jr. (Eric the Hun)
raygixxer89
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Posted: 8/12/2010 1:36:30 AM
Can somebody hot-link it as I am intersted in buying an FEG hi-power. Oh,I'm using my phone right now(no cut and paste).
ProfGAB101
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Posted: 8/12/2010 1:44:52 AM
Originally Posted By raygixxer89:
Can somebody hot-link it as I am intersted in buying an FEG hi-power. Oh,I'm using my phone right now(no cut and paste).


Sure, here it is http://feghp.blogspot.com/
anything less than 800rnds wasn't worth getting the gun dirty.

April 6, 2006 - Has now past... Time to Lawyer up again.
raygixxer89
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Posted: 8/12/2010 3:19:27 AM
Originally Posted By ProfGAB101:
Originally Posted By raygixxer89:
Can somebody hot-link it as I am intersted in buying an FEG hi-power. Oh,I'm using my phone right now(no cut and paste).


Sure, here it is http://feghp.blogspot.com/




Thanks Prof!! I'll read it tomorrow.
shadawick
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Posted: 8/12/2010 10:34:46 AM
Originally Posted By MilMatch:
For those of you who have an interest in the FEG Hi Power and Hi Power style pistols, I spent most of the winter writing a definitive article about the FEG and Argentine Hi Powers. You'll find them on a blog a friend and I started at http://feghp.blogspot.com/. It starts out with a fairly short article on the Argie FM 90's and if you'll scroll down to the article entitled "Decoding the FEG Hi Power" you'll find I basically wrote a book on them. As a Word document it was 16 pages long and has 23 photos. Be ready for a long read if you go there. I originally started work on it as a post for internet gun forums like AR 15.com, but it grew so long and had so many photos I just couldn't make it work as such and had to go to a blog format. Hope you enjoy it and I hope I'm not violating any rules by posting this here.

And yes, I actually own a REAL Browning Hi-Power....a 1979 Sport Model with beer can sights.

MilMatch


I am very interested in your and/or friends experience with these different pistols as to feeding reliability with ammo other then FMJ.
In other words, what can you bet your life on. I'm not saying FMJ won't do the job, but would seriously rather hav a Cor-bon 115 JHP at work.

stevegc

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Posted: 8/12/2010 3:44:32 PM
WOW...great info. Thanks!
MilMatch
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Posted: 8/12/2010 3:55:27 PM
Sure Shadiwick,

Most of the single-action FEG Hi Power semiautomatic pistols ever built are basically reverse engineered pre-Mark II FN/Browning Hi Powers (allbeit some with FEG's own in-house slide stop setup) and are equipped with the "humped" feed ramp also seen in those earlier FN/Browning guns. These early "humped" feed ramps were designed to feed round nosed full metal jacketed ammunition, not the more blunt nosed jacketed hollow points. There's much more to it than this, but this will get us started on answering your question about feeding JHP ammo.

There are those who have gunsmiths "de-hump," or straighten out these ramps to achieve feeding reliability with JHP ammo, and I have had this done on a FEG PJK-9HP and also on my Charles Daly Hi Power, which is also a FEG . There has been quite a lot written on the gun forums about the problem of feeding JHP loads in guns having the "humped" ramps being solved by simply using MecGar magazines, which are said to hold the top round at a slightly higher angle to the feed ramp so they will feed JHP's reliably. I have tried this fix also.

The pistols I had the ramps "de-humped" in fed JHP's flawlessly, and, so far, my early-90's KBI PJK-9HP with the factory-stock "humped" ramp and MecGar 13 and 15 round magazines have reliably fed several magazines of Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P JHP's, Fiocchi Extrema 115 grain and 124 grain JHP's, and the bulk Remington 115 grain JHP (L9mm1B), stagger loaded with each other and stagger loaded with each other and some other FMJ loads to try and force a hiccup, which the gun did not do. It fed them all without a hitch. But then this test did not involve a vast volume of test ammunition - just a few magazines full.

According to all the reading I have done on the subject, some of these "humped" feed ramps will feed JHP loads OK, others will feed this JHP but not that one, while still others won't feed anything reliably but round nosed FMJ loads. It tends to be a very iffy subject and each gun can be relied on to be a total individual. I know this isn't the answer you wanted, but after all is said and done, the only true test of whether these feed ramps will feed a particular JHP bullet is by actual test in your gun using your magazines and the ammo you wish to use. If using a gun with a "humped" feed ramp for defensive purposes, I would begin with an assumption that it will NOT reliably feed jacketed hollow points and go from there. I would personally not assume that any particular fix will enable reliable feeding of JHP ammo without testing it myself, but then I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.

Just one final note.....in its closing years of gunmaking, the FEG conglomerate changed its Hi Power style pistols over completely to a Smith and Wesson system of barrel/slide/frame interaction, completely abandoning the Colt/Browning system. This is explained thoroughly in the blog I referred you to. I'd say more, but it took me 16 pages of text to explain it the first time

I hope I've answered your question nonetheless. Best wishes.

Jer

P.S.You will find excellent discussions and reviews on this subject written by a real master at http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html

shadawick
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Posted: 8/12/2010 10:05:20 PM
Wow! Thanks for you answer, I believe your correct on all points.

I read a long time ago that if you had feed problems with JHP's to give the Remington 124gr JHP+P a try since it's shape and profile closely remembles FMJ ball.

When you said, that FEG went to a S&W style barrel system, are you saying that it tended to handle JHP's pretty well compared to the "humped," Browning bbl?
MilMatch
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Posted: 8/13/2010 12:18:18 AM
No, I'm not saying that. I have never seen any evidence that the Smith and Wesson operating system improved reliability with JHP ammo. I believe it was done to reduce costs since the Smith and Wesson system was obviously easier to manufacture. I have never seen a report on how well these newer S&W systems feed JHP's or didn't feed them, so once again you would need to do some personal testing.

Another consideration in using JHP ammo in the FN/Browning Hi Powers and their clones is that prolonged or high volume use of high pressure ammo tends to damage them or accelerate wear appreciably unless one installs the Wolff 18.5 recoil spring and extra power firing pin rebound spring, and this is difficult and hazardous to install in the FEG pistols having the S&W style operating systems - a problem I devoted a lengthy section to in my blog.

The basic FN/Browning Hi Power platform, regardless of operating system or manufacturer, is small for a 9mm, lightweight, and less than beefy, so using +P ammo in any of them in quantity brings about an entirely different set of problems. This is all covered in the link I gave you to Mr. Camp's work on the subject.

While lots of reports exist on the performance of the FN/Browning Hi Power pistols with +P ammo, I have never seen a report concerning the performance of the FEG pistols when using high pressure ammo in quantity, nor have I ever seen an authoritative comparison of the steels used in the FN/Browning guns compared to the steels used in the FEG pistols. The FN/Browning guns switched to a stronger cast frame a few years ago, but FEG did not follow suit, so I'm sure the newer cast frames would be stronger than the FEG frames, but I can't be sure how the FEG stacks up against an older FN/Browning gun with the conventional forged frame.

As for your Remington load, Speer makes its Gold Dot 124 grain JHP round in a standard pressure load (not +p), and it too has a bullet shape somewhat similar to a round nose bullet. It is the standard load of the New York City Transit Police so it has to have something going for it. It's pricey as heck, but if you get to the point of testing JHP ammo in these guns, you might give it a try too.

Hope some of this helps.


shadawick
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Posted: 8/13/2010 12:40:02 AM
Thanks again, I really appreciate your time and consideration!

I did not know that about the Gold Dot, it would be interesting to find out about the "on the street," performance of this round.

MilMatch
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Posted: 8/13/2010 12:56:57 AM
You're welcome sir. If the Gold Dot standard pressure load is in use by the NYC transit police I'd bet you could do a google search and find some actual police experiences with it. It's +P version uses the same bullet and is the standard load of the NYPD. I'm also told that the Remington Golden Sabre is now available in a standard pressure, non-+P load, and I'm pretty sure it has somewhat of a round nose bullet as well. I have a box of it somewhere and if I can dig it out I'll let you know. Glad to help. Us East Tennesseans have to help our North Carolina neighbors all we can - otherwise you guys will cut off our supply of Sourwood Honey. [:D

Jer
chibajoe
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Posted: 9/8/2010 4:28:29 PM
Originally Posted By MilMatch:
For those of you who have an interest in the FEG Hi Power and Hi Power style pistols, I spent most of the winter writing a definitive article about the FEG and Argentine Hi Powers. You'll find them on a blog a friend and I started at http://feghp.blogspot.com/. It starts out with a fairly short article on the Argie FM 90's and if you'll scroll down to the article entitled "Decoding the FEG Hi Power" you'll find I basically wrote a book on them. As a Word document it was 16 pages long and has 23 photos. Be ready for a long read if you go there. I originally started work on it as a post for internet gun forums like AR 15.com, but it grew so long and had so many photos I just couldn't make it work as such and had to go to a blog format. Hope you enjoy it and I hope I'm not violating any rules by posting this here.

And yes, I actually own a REAL Browning Hi-Power....a 1979 Sport Model with beer can sights.

MilMatch


I don't know if you ever got a definitive answer on what system the PJK-9HP uses, but mine uses the BHP setup and not the S&W system.

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes...
That way, when you do judge them, you will be a mile away, and they will have no shoes.
MilMatch
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Posted: 9/10/2010 8:26:01 AM
Thank you very much. The fact that your FP9 (factory model number) has the in-house FEG slide stop system is very interesting. Now I will have to keep my ears open to determine if this model was ever marketed as the PJK 9HP with the standard Browning slide stop. The plot is always thickening with these guns. Thanks again.

MM
DaffyDuck
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Posted: 9/11/2010 11:30:33 AM
Thank you sir for such an excellent and well written article. The conflicting bits & pieces of info out there on the internet has been mind boggling about these pistols, and now I feel like I am much more informed. In viewing online & handling various examples of these I have noticed the many differences and was always confused as to whether they were even made by the same firm or farmed out. I currently own a Portugal assembled Mark III, but want to acquire a Hungarian pistol. Now I know what to look for. Again, excellent article, you certainly have done your homework!
MilMatch
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Posted: 9/17/2010 5:28:14 PM
Thank you for your kind comments, Mr. Duck. After all the fooling around I've done with these guns I've reached a conclusion that FEG operated like the American pistol companies of the late 1800's - they would build you anything they offered with any features you wanted as long as you bought enough of them. This is the only explanation I can offer as to the multitude of variations in features that are undistinguished by model number variations, etc.....that and a suspicion that they sometimes used any parts they had in stock just in the name of economy. I've actually identified four different models of KBI's PJK-9HP and three of TGI's P9M. All in all though, I think they built a very good pistol.

MM
1saxman
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Posted: 9/29/2010 4:45:26 PM
My FEG PJK-9HP shoots HP. In fact, 115gr hollow-points is all I've ever loaded it with. It is completely original (I bought it new) and has the 'humped feed ramp. One major thing that has really confused the issue over the years was KBI's (the principle importer) habit of indiscriminately naming models after family members' initials (PJK, GKK, etc.) and having FEG so roll-mark the guns during manufacture. Then, you also have most every FEG seller calling the double-action FEGs 'Hi-Powers'. These are the P9R, GKK92, P9RK and GKK-92C, and they are not Hi-Powers in any way. Good pistols, though, based on the S&W Model 59 series. I term the FEG pistols in the same category as the FEG AK-style rifles - excellent military quality in materials, fit and finish. Yes, the Browning Hi-Power is better in fit and finish, but the FEGs certainly perform in keeping with the military/police manufacturing history of FEG - now defunct, although somebody in Hungary is still supplying AK parts and receivers, such as the FEG SA2000M receivers used on many 'AMD-65s' now being sold. There is also some assembly of these in Hungary. It may be a group of ex-employees who perhaps bought out the machinery and parts at the end of FEG. It would be great if they managed to start making the P9 again but I don't see that happening.
If you can find a new or like-new PJK-9HP with the original polished-blue finish, you will be surprised at the depth and color of the bluing which is at least as good if not better than FN's. Unfortunately the polishing was not as good in some spots so you usually get machining marks here and there, but this is all in keeping with FEG's military heritage, having supplied Hungary and other nations' military and police weapons for about a century.
Here's my Browning 69C (top) and PJK-9HP.

MilMatch
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Posted: 9/29/2010 4:52:52 PM
[Last Edit: 9/29/2010 8:05:23 PM by MilMatch]
Extremely well said and entirely true.

Here is a photo illustrating your point about the beautiful blue job on the FEG pistols. This is a P9 (PJK-9HP), the true BHP clone. I was lucky enough to find in unfired condition a year and a half ago and it is probably my favorite pistol of all. The grips are Herrett's Cocobolo grips and I have since replaced the small safety with a FEG safety from a Charles Daly Hi Power. Her she is:



This is a P9M (PJK-9HP) with the in house FEG slide stop arrangement. Another beautiful blue job.



Jer
chibajoe
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Posted: 9/30/2010 12:00:39 PM
[Last Edit: 9/30/2010 12:01:15 PM by chibajoe]
If anybody is interested, there appears to be a NIB FP-9 on gunbroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=193169100
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes...
That way, when you do judge them, you will be a mile away, and they will have no shoes.
Joshisskinny
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Posted: 9/30/2010 7:10:55 PM
[Last Edit: 9/30/2010 7:14:36 PM by Joshisskinny]
A few years ago I had a FEG, but I sold it and regretted it ever since.


But then I found this and snapped it up.







Now I want to add an extended safety, remove the mag disconnect, and maybe add Novak sights...maybe.
Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon. - Winston Churchill
MilMatch
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Posted: 9/30/2010 9:20:58 PM
I did exactly the same thing. You did very well. Beautiful pistol.
Blackmore
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Posted: 10/5/2010 6:35:26 AM
I read MilMatch's blog before and then exchanged a few emails with him after I bought the FEG P9M pictured below. I got it on GB from Tenn. Guns Int'l who were one of the importers of the FEG hi-power copies and it is marked accordingly. It was described as NIB old stock with box and all accessories except a magazine. Apparently that was what kept the bidding from going very high

As you can see, it has a deep nearly black bluing. It also has minimal machining marks and none of the sharp internal surfaces which are usually common in the FEGS. It has the hi-power operating system and a slightly larger rear sight with a 3 dot system. It also seems to be some sort of transitional model since it has the Browning style slide stop but also has the extended FEG designed safety rather than the tiny Browning one many dislike. Jer has concluded this is yet another FEG anomaly and the third different variation bearing the P9M model number.



...to us, slavery and tyranny are far-fetched concepts that history has righted - but to history, the far-fetched concept is the idea that men should be free.
DrMark
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Posted: 10/5/2010 7:30:51 AM

Originally Posted By Blackmore:
I read MilMatch's blog before and then exchanged a few emails with him after I bought the FEG P9M pictured below. I got it on GB from Tenn. Guns Int'l who were one of the importers of the FEG hi-power copies and it is marked accordingly. It was described as NIB old stock with box and all accessories except a magazine. Apparently that was what kept the bidding from going very high.

As you can see, it has a deep nearly black bluing. It also has minimal machining marks and none of the sharp internal surfaces which are usually common in the FEGS. It has the hi-power operating system and a slightly larger rear sight with a 3 dot system. It also seems to be some sort of transitional model since it has the Browning style slide stop but also has the extended FEG designed safety rather than the tiny Browning one many dislike. Jer has concluded this is yet another FEG anomaly and the third different variation bearing the P9M model number.
In addition, it has a spur hammer vice the typical ring hammer.

Interesting.

RIP - John Dean "Jeff" Cooper
RIP - Wayne Henry Cobb Jr. (Eric the Hun)
Blackmore
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Posted: 2/7/2011 6:47:57 AM
Tennessee Guns had another NIB P9M the consecutive S/N to mine (also w/o a magazine) on GB. I was tempted, but held off so I had the money for something else.
...to us, slavery and tyranny are far-fetched concepts that history has righted - but to history, the far-fetched concept is the idea that men should be free.
MilMatch
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Posted: 2/9/2011 7:50:42 PM
For any of you gents who have an interest in the FEG Hi-Powers, we've been able to identify a couple of previously unknown FEG's at http://feghp.blogspot.com/

JayPee

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