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Posted: 3/25/2015 9:08:26 PM EDT
I'm fed up with Glock and their recent quality control issues/lack of accountability. Long story short, I'm thinking of replacing my G19 with a P07 for my main carry pistol, and I had some questions.

1. Does CZ use any MIM parts?

2. Have any of you long time CZ fans noticed any quality issues in the newer guns? Is there any evidence that CZ is cutting corners or trying to increase profits by sacrificing quality in any way?

3. If you had a choice between a CZ P07 and a compact Sphinx, without any concern for price, which one would you rather carry? (I know that's a loaded question, but my understanding is that the Sphinx and P07 are sort of based on the same concept, which is putting a polymer frame on a CZ 75...)

I would appreciate any input you might have, especially regarding the MIM parts.

Link Posted: 3/25/2015 10:33:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I'm fed up with Glock and their recent quality control issues/lack of accountability. Long story short, I'm thinking of replacing my G19 with a P07 for my main carry pistol, and I had some questions.
View Quote


I've been in that same boat before - I jumped and I've never been happier. I've always wanted to like Glocks though, especially the Gen. 2 G17.

1. Does CZ use any MIM parts?
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I have no idea. I've detail stripped both the P-series and the standard 75-series numerous times but I've never thought to look or ask. From what I've seen the parts have exhibited a good quality and replacements are cheap and available. I'm not afraid of MIM because MIM is fine. I'm afraid of bad QC, poor customer service, and not being able to buy spare parts easily.

2. Have any of you long time CZ fans noticed any quality issues in the newer guns? Is there any evidence that CZ is cutting corners or trying to increase profits by sacrificing quality in any way?
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I have not.

3. If you had a choice between a CZ P07 and a compact Sphinx, without any concern for price, which one would you rather carry? (I know that's a loaded question, but my understanding is that the Sphinx and P07 are sort of based on the same concept, which is putting a polymer frame on a CZ 75...)
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P-07, simply due to more aftermarket accessories and parts (Cajun Gun Works, CZ Custom, etc.). I like having the options. Rumor was Apex was going to come out with some parts too.

Anyways I hope you find your answers. Good luck!

Link Posted: 3/25/2015 10:59:42 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for the insight, good points. For me though the MIM is going to be what makes or breaks the deal. It's the ultimate reason I'm planning to leave Glock. It's also the reason I won't be going to the M&P. I don't have any proof, but I'm pretty certain that MIM is what killed the Glock. I've heard rumors that CZ doesn't use it, at least not yet, and I've got my fingers crossed.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 12:37:58 AM EDT
[#3]
I don't know of any proof of one or another but it is widely believed by those who have inspected their pistols that the answer is no.
I have two a SP-01 and a P-01 and I am with the no there is not any MIM parts crowd
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 1:01:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't know of any proof of one or another but it is widely believed by those who have inspected their pistols that the answer is no.
I have two a SP-01 and a P-01 and I am with the no there is not any MIM parts crowd
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This is what I want to hear. It's funny, I always ignored CZ because I thought they were cheap, assumed they were cheaply made. Now I'm starting to suspect that CZ might be Europe's premier firearms manufacturer. I need to take a second look at Steyr, as well. Thanks for the info.

BTW, is it true that you can always tell MIM parts by the little hickey where the polymer/metal powder was injected? I wouldn't put it past manufacturers to buff it away to hide their indiscretions from the customer.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 1:05:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Have the larger p 09 and it is great. Not as concealable.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 5:48:58 AM EDT
[#6]
I've been through most of the plastic guns (Glock, XDM, M&P) and got my first CZ, a P07 in .40 S&W, last year.  It is, hands down, the most accurate plastic framed pistol I've ever fired.

So far its been 100% reliable.  I've been carrying it for several months.  

I've since bought a P09 in 9MM.  Guess what, so far 100% reliable and more accurate than my other guns.  I bought an XDM 5.25 9MM and the CZ shoots rings around it.

Take a look at the CZ sites.  I mean CZ USA, CZ Custom and Cajun Gunworks.  You won't believe the availability of factory parts from CZ USA and CZ Custom.  Then, if you want the custom parts check out CZ Custom and Cajun Gunworks.   That's another thing that sold me on the CZs.  When I was having M&P issues I could find one part at one vendor, but the others were out of stock so I had to order from multiple vendors to get all the parts I needed.  When I bought some parts for my P09 (lost a spring while doing some trigger work) I just went through the parts list and ordered $90 or so of small pins, springs, etc. and every part was in stock and I got them a week after ordering.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 7:06:24 AM EDT
[#7]
CZs are the best kept secret in the firearms industry. Incredibly high quality pistols at awesome prices. You wont be disappointed with the P07, it is a fantastic pistol. Also check out the CZ 75 RAMI if  you're looking for CCW pistols.


Link Posted: 3/26/2015 11:46:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 1:56:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Cajun gun works sells complete p07s with their pro package already done. I am looking at one myself.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 2:42:19 PM EDT
[#10]
I am reposing this from Here
It makes for a interesting debate.
 I get it that there is extra piece of mind that goes having tool steel parts but guys MIM is here to stay.
Personally If it were really an issue of to buy or not buy I would call Cajin Gun works and speak to them about the subject.

The 1996A2 is the base gun for all our models. On the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) log books, it will say 1996A2 no matter what the model is.

In 1996 we first came out with our own guns. The first ones said 1996A2 on one side and on the other it said whatever the model was Protector, CQB etc.

Note: On the right side of my gun is imprinted: Wilson Combat.
On the left side of my gun is imprinted :1996A2 .45 cal auto.

We also sold a basic model called the 1996A2. It was very close to a CQB, but did not have checkering or serrations on the front strap and had rubber panel grips. It came in Parkerize or blue and later was available in hard chrome frame/black Polymer top or in all Polymer (forerunner of our Armor Tuff.) (Then) At this time our Protectors & Classics were marked Service Grade. Later this name was dropped (about the time we started the CQB.) You might still find CQB's or some of the other models marked 1996A2 or Service Grade.

Also, to clear up another question, the CQB and carbon steel Protectors are identical except in color and that the Protector comes with a full length guide rod and the CQB comes with a short guide (this is now a steel short guide rod. Originally it was in polymer to work as another form of buffer, but was being knocked because people did not understand the principal. We here, including Bill Wilson still use the polymer type.)

The short guide is used in the CQB because ordinally designed for the military, a long guide rod is a little harder to disassembly/reassembly in a field environment.


This year (2002), we have dropped the carbon steel Protector and Protector Compact. The customer can now order the CQB/CQB Compact in all black, all grey (new color Armor Tuff), all OD Green, or Black over Green or Black over Grey. And if desired, a full length guide rod. Because of this, there is no need for the carbon steel Protectors, however we will still make the all stainless steel and Black over Stainless steel Protectors.

I hope this helps everyone to understand our products and some of the reasons behind them.

Frank Robbins Wilson Combat

One other thing I forgot to address. MIM parts. A company that I will not name gave the MIM parts a bad name because they had a bad batch of MIM parts. This was many years ago. Since then remarkable things have happened.

MIM parts are extremely dense and very exact. They are much less prone to wear and breakage than a factory Colt, Spfg. etc. part. This is why we use them in our CQB's, etc. Although not quite as hard as our tool steel parts, they will last a very long time. This is why we can still quarante our total gun, including the MIM parts, for life.

The tool steel parts are actually overkill. The MIM parts last for life (I know of one gun that has over 100,000 rounds thru it and the trigger pull feels the same as it did when new) therefore I guess you could say the tool steel parts lasts for a lifetime and ½.

We use the tool steel parts in our full custom guns. (These are the ones that cost from $2800.00 up) Our full custom guns, Stealth, Tactical Elite, Super Grade and Tactical Super Grade, are not for everyone because of price. They are intended for someone that can afford the very best we can do.

They [tool steel] actually won't last any longer, shoot any straighter or be more dependable than our CQB's, Protectors and Classics, but we spend many extra hours in fitting and prepping them for a perfect cosmetic handgun as well as a great shooter. And because of this, we use the tool steel parts that take longer to fit.

Again, all of us guys here, including Bill Wilson use the very same MIM parts in our guns. And we shoot a bunch! Once installed and fit, no one can tell the difference in the feel of the trigger pull with either type of parts.

Ok, I'm done with my book. Hope this helps too. Just didn't want you all to believe everything you read from self appointed experts.

Frank Robbins Wilson Combat"
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 3:02:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have read the the P07/09 and Omega trigger pistols do use MIM parts.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=27282.0

Angus Hobdell of CZC fame says that the Omega and Duty pistols which were the original P07s have MIM.

Here's another claim that they *do not* use any MIM.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-718510.html


I'd say the answer to that is inconclusive at this time, needs further investigation but it wouldn't surprise me if the polymer pistols were using MIM.
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Say it isn't so

Well, looks like I might be getting a Sphinx. They're the only polymer frame maker I know of that absolutely positively does not use any MIM parts. They are very up front about every last detail of their manufacturing process, and they are so enthusiastic about how they only use parts CNC machined from forged billets. They don't even use any cast parts. The price isn't bad either when you think about what you're getting. I think it's actually funny how people are lining up to pay 1500 for those crappy Kimbers, yet they cry foul when Sphinx tries to charge 900 for a vastly superior gun. They even come with tritium sights, which are about a 200 value.

I think about it like this. A new Glock is almost 600 with tax, shipping, FFL. Add 200 for a decent set of night sights. Then add another 200 in aftermarket parts just to keep the brass out of your face. We're already up to the 1K mark. For the love of all that is good and holy, 1k for a Glock! Madness!!!
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 3:28:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I am reposing this from Here
It makes for a interesting debate.
 I get it that there is extra piece of mind that goes having tool steel parts but guys MIM is here to stay.
View Quote


This surprises me that Wilson is using MIM. I'm calling BS on Wilson's claims. First off, a gun without MIM parts needn't be 2500, that's a bunch of horse sh!t and they know it. Second, I've done lots of research into MIM in general, and the consensus from the people in the industry is that MIM done right is not a cost saver. MIM is a technology that has certain applications, namely in making specialized parts that cannot be easily made any other way. It's obvious that injection molding metal as if it were polymer has certain advantages if you want to design very small complex parts, that being that CNC is limited in that area. What I keep hearing, however, is that MIM done right is more expensive than CNCing from billet. There is no reason from a quality standpoint to use MIM.

As for MIM being here to stay, I think the jury is still out on that one. People are slowly waking up to the fact that the MIM being used in their guns is crap. So now the gun makers have a choice. They can start doing the MIM right, which will raise the costs. Or they can go back to casting tool steel and CNCing from billet.

Besides, modern firearms have been made for over a hundred years without MIM and for reasonable costs. Again, the claim that a non MIM gun has to cost 2500 dollars is so much crap. That wasn't true ten years ago, and it's not true now.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 10:10:40 PM EDT
[#13]
i picked up a 07 recently. wanted something G19 size but dont care for glocks. i love it. several hundred rounds thru it with no issues. i stippled it, blacked the rear sight and added a fiber front sight. i run it like a 1911 with safety instead of decocker.

also made a kydex holster for it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 12:56:41 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm of the opinion that you buy what you truly want the first time. If a Sphinx is that pistol for you I say go for it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 2:50:11 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
I'm of the opinion that you buy what you truly want the first time. If a Sphinx is that pistol for you I say go for it.
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Couldn't agree with you more. I thought a Glock 19 was what I really wanted, but I was under quite a few misconceptions when I bought it. I didn't know they were using MIM, I assumed they were still using Tenifer, and I had no idea that so many people were having problems with them. My info was pretty outdated, obviously. I'm still pretty heartbroken over the whole deal because I really do like the Glock design, so much so in fact that I'm considering building a clone from lone wolf parts, which I understand are still working fine. It's really depressing to see a fine Austrian company like Glock going in the direction they are. I feel so disillusioned.

More than anything, I just want something rugged that will maintain reliability throughout its service life. For me, that means no MIM. If I have to pay 1k for a polymer pistol to get that, then so be it. I'm still hoping that CZ doesn't use any, but it's good to know that Sphinx doesn't just in case. I'm getting mixed opinions on the CZs. Some people are saying no, some yes. CZ USA is apparently claiming no MIM, but I'm not sure how official that is.
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 12:56:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Honestly, if you are looking for a pistol that is rugged and will last a lifetime. Both Glock and CZ would serve you well. I'm not going to try to change your mind about the mim issues. Your mind is made up.
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 3:32:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Honestly, if you are looking for a pistol that is rugged and will last a lifetime. Both Glock and CZ would serve you well. I'm not going to try to change your mind about the mim issues. Your mind is made up.
View Quote


Yep, it's pretty made up. I keep hearing too many stories about Glocks that had the MIM parts break after ~800 rounds, some as low as 500. Google "broken locking block" and you'll get hundreds of photos and stories about broken locking blocks. Never heard of that problem in a non-MIM Glock before. IMO, there's no excuse for a locking block to break. Same problems being reported with the extractors (excessive wear, breakage after ~800 rounds)
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 7:48:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yep, it's pretty made up. I keep hearing too many stories about Glocks that had the MIM parts break after ~800 rounds, some as low as 500. Google "broken locking block" and you'll get hundreds of photos and stories about broken locking blocks. Never heard of that problem in a non-MIM Glock before. IMO, there's no excuse for a locking block to break. Same problems being reported with the extractors (excessive wear, breakage after ~800 rounds)
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Honestly, if you are looking for a pistol that is rugged and will last a lifetime. Both Glock and CZ would serve you well. I'm not going to try to change your mind about the mim issues. Your mind is made up.


Yep, it's pretty made up. I keep hearing too many stories about Glocks that had the MIM parts break after ~800 rounds, some as low as 500. Google "broken locking block" and you'll get hundreds of photos and stories about broken locking blocks. Never heard of that problem in a non-MIM Glock before. IMO, there's no excuse for a locking block to break. Same problems being reported with the extractors (excessive wear, breakage after ~800 rounds)


AJE in the Glock forum has over 10,000 through his Glock 34. I have about 7,000 through my Glock 19 and about 5,000 through my Glock 26. I have about 2,500 through my CZ75b. Only part I have changed is recoil spring assemblies on the Glocks. I really can't ask more from a firearm. They have never let me down.

Sorry to hear you had a breakage on your gun, that is frustrating. That is a rather rare occurrence though and I don't think you should be so quick to write off the the entire line.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 3:41:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Believe me, Sharn, I'm not one of those people who hates Glock because of some ideological preconceptions. I think the earlier Glocks were outstanding pistols. The design is truly inspired, the stark simplicity and economy of parts...amazing. That is why it breaks my heart to have to admit that the quality is just not where it once was. Glock was obviously doing fine without using MIM, so what's changed in the last ten years that necessitates it now? IMO, they saw that their competition was doing it, and they thought they might as well go with the crowd. They saw that the consumer was willing to put up with it, and they were all too happy to cut manufacturing costs. I feel betrayed...

But I also feel like this is an opportunity for other manufacturers to step up to the plate and make the best gun they can, even if the big boys are getting away with cutting corners. I think CZ might be one of those companies. The only reason that some gun manufacturers are getting away with their current antics is that demand is at an all time high. At some point, the market will be saturated, and consumers will be in a position to be much more discerning. Manufacturers who cut corners during the boom will not be forgotten, and neither will those who resisted the temptation to make a quick buck. When the dust finally settles, I think that there will be a reevaluation of brand prestige. As of right now, if you make a gun, someone will buy it, and they'll pay what you ask. That's not going to last forever.

A case in point. During the recent buying panic, there was one gun shop where I live that did not inflate its prices at all. Other shops were basically auctioning off their guns to the highest bidder, but this one place didn't raise prices by one cent. They sold out of guns in a matter of days, and the ammo was gone by the end of that week. People were buying guns from them and then reselling them for three times as much the same day. That shop didn't have anything to sell for the next three months or so. Even worse, no one came to shoot at their range because there was no ammo to be had anywhere. They could have gone under, especially since they had just made a large expansion to the ranges and hired a bunch of new employees. But, people remembered them for that, and now their business is booming.

What goes around comes around, and the only way to weather time is to treat people the way you want to be treated. That's what capitalism is based upon, which means everyone striving to make the best products they possibly can. It's about honor and integrity, which means doing the right thing even if no one is looking. When Glock switched from casting to MIM, did they advertise it? No they did not. When they switched from Tenifer to Melonite, did they advertise it? No they did not. They did these things quietly in the dark of night. Doesn't seem to me like they're proud of those changes. And did they pass the savings onto the customer? No they did not. Like I said, I feel like I've been betrayed. I feel like I just bought a gold coin and found a big old chunk of lead in the middle.

Maybe MIM is okay most of the time, but there is a better way to do things. Therefore, that is the way they should be done.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 8:23:29 AM EDT
[#20]
CZ75 SP01 (not mine)

80k rounds with no cleaning or failures. There are lots of stories over there over mega high mileage CZs (and Glocks) No one shoots more than competitive shooters

From the Enos forums

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=133083&page=13

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