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Posted: 6/10/2016 11:01:13 PM EDT
I was curious how well my FBI configuration (3" heavy barrel, round butt) Model 13 would do on the current FBI pistol qualification course, using 158 gr +P ammo.
The current FBI pistol qualification course of fire is as follows: Target used is the QIT-99 or QIT-03 Course consists of a total of 60 rounds Each round counts as one point Any hits inside the target area count You must draw from concealment for every string of shots Passing score for Agents is 48 out of 60 Stage 1: 3 yard line 3 rounds in 3 seconds using your strong hand only 3 rounds in 3 seconds using your strong hand only 3 rounds using strong hand only, switch hands, 3 rounds using support hand only in 8 seconds Total of 12 rounds for Stage 1 After Stage 1, all shooting is done with two hands Stage 2: 5 yard line 3 rounds in 3 seconds 3 rounds in 3 seconds 3 rounds in 3 seconds 3 rounds in 3 seconds Total of 12 rounds for Stage 2 Stage 3: 7 yard line 4 rounds in 4 seconds 4 rounds in 4 seconds Have two magazines loaded with four rounds each. Fire four rounds, reload, fire another four rounds in 8 seconds. Total of 16 rounds for Stage 3 Stage 4: 15 yard line 3 rounds in 6 seconds 3 rounds in 6 seconds 4 rounds in 8 seconds Total of 10 rounds for Stage 4 Stage 5: 25 yard line Requires barricade. Move to cover and fire 2 rounds standing, then 3 rounds kneeling, all in 15 seconds Move to cover and fire 2 rounds standing, then 3 rounds kneeling, all in 15 seconds Total of 10 rounds for Stage 5 ----- Now...the tricky part for a revolver on this pistol oriented course of fire is this portion of Stage 3: "Have two magazines loaded with four rounds each. Fire four rounds, reload, fire another four rounds in 8 seconds." Getting eight rounds on target in eight seconds is a challenge with a 6 shot revolver. I found that to come close, I had to use the outdated FBI reload rather than my preferred Stress Fire reload. Even then, the best I could accomplish in 2 qualification runs was 7 out of 8 rounds as round 8 left the barrel at 8.24 seconds on the first attempt and 8.29 seconds on the second attempt. Even then, it was really moving given the concealed carry start and the concealed carry of the reload. However, I think with some practice I can shave off the extra third of a second and get 60/60. The other stages were all easily done with around a half second to spare on the short range stages and 2-3 seconds to spare on the 25 yard stage. If there is a major impact, it's the need to fire all rounds in the 3, 5 and 7 yards stages in DA mode, rather than with the shorter, lighter, (but rather gritty and creepy) trigger on a Glock. The 15 and 25 yard stages offered enough time to use the revolver in SA mode, which improved the score to 59/60 on the second run, as compared to 54/60 on the first attempt.  
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Posted: 6/10/2016 11:07:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Want, want, want, want!!!!!!! |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:12:02 AM EDT
[#2]
Gawd, have they ever dumbed done the auto pistol course. Partly why the emphasis on M4s and the abandonment of 870s.
ALL of the course is/should be shot DOUBLE ACTION. You'd be laughed off the line cocking the hammer. Its not safe. Its barely more accurate than trained DA fire. And DA is much faster. Before I retired, it was easy to clean the Auto pistol courses with a Smith 66 faster than the auto shooters could finish with Glocks. But the damn revolver was always empty. I loved the Glock 22. Replicating courses abandoned with a revolver 20 years ago is interesting, but? The FBI methods of reloading a revolver are spot on from the era. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:40:45 AM EDT
[#3]
When I carried a model 66 back in the late 70's we were issued dump pouches which were pretty slow to reload. I convinced the Chief to let us carry speed loaders and I used the Safariland with the trim carrier where the actual rounds slipped over the top edge od the Sam Brown belt. Using a proper right hand reloading technique where you open the cylinder and transfer the revolver to the weak hand and retrieve the speed loader with the strong hand I think I could pass that stage. The Safriland speed loaders released the cartridges by pushing the loader body, not by turning a knob like on the HKS loader which requires more fine motor control and harder to use under stress.
Another advantage of the Safriland speed loader was the shells were held in the loader more rigid and were easier for me to index into the cylinder than the wobbly rounds of the HKS loader. If you really wanted to be fast you needed to use round nose lead or jacketed round nose bullets to aid the bullets entry to the chamber. Flat nosed hollow base wadcutters could be a little more challenging but back in the day of the revolver the stages had a lot of time to shoot each string. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:55:06 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gawd, have they ever dumbed done the auto pistol course. Partly why the emphasis on M4s and the abandonment of 870s. ALL of the course is/should be shot DOUBLE ACTION. You'd be laughed off the line cocking the hammer. Its not safe. Its barely more accurate than trained DA fire. And DA is much faster. Before I retired, it was easy to clean the Auto pistol courses with a Smith 66 faster than the auto shooters could finish with Glocks. But the damn revolver was always empty. I loved the Glock 22. Replicating courses abandoned with a revolver 20 years ago is interesting, but? The FBI methods of reloading a revolver are spot on from the era. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what? I certainly don't mind shooting double action with a Model 13, and I'm not necessarily advocating using SA in a gun fight but historically, the point of having SA is to improve accuracy at longer ranges, and the 15 and 25 yard times are generous - even with a revolver. There isn't really any point here other than seeing if the Model 13 would shoot a clean score on the current course of fire. As for the FBI reload, it's day was the 1930s to the early 1970s. .357 brass after a stiff .357 mag load can stick in the chamber and may not always eject cleanly, making the Universal and Stress Fire reloads better choices than the FBI reload which was really designed for .38 Special. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:23:25 PM EDT
[#5]
....
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:29:31 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:37:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really not. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:04:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Are there any videos out there of this qualifying drill? Interesting, all BS aside.
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Posted: 6/16/2016 9:03:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are there any videos out there of this qualifying drill? Interesting, all BS aside. Yeah, I'd love to see that. Great thread - cool info I never knew. If nothing else, I'm looking for some Safarilands to replace my HKS's. |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 9:06:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Feel free to post a target, rather than just post. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Really not. 
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Posted: 6/16/2016 10:11:47 AM EDT
[#11]
....
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Posted: 6/16/2016 9:49:17 PM EDT
[#12]
I appreciate the local color/waltz down memory lane - but again the point of the exercise was again just to see how well the Model 13 did on the current course, not to debate why the FBI adopted pistols in the wake of the Miami shootout.
I'm also not real worried about suit jackets as I no longer have to wear a suit. I agree with you, at least historically, about rubber grips - most options back in the day did increase the trigger reach. Pachmayr now sells their professional series which leaves the back strap exposed and is about 10% smaller than their other grips - which eliminates the problem. They also sell their compact grips (as pictured above) which are smaller and also don't pose an issue on a K-frame, unless you've got really tiny hands. ---- What I would appreciate are the specific for the old FBI revolver qualification course in use at the time the Model 13 was issued to agents (1980-91) since it was before my time. That would actually be useful information that I'd find useful for comparison purposes. |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 11:01:50 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 6/23/2016 9:52:28 PM EDT
[#14]
....
Withdrawn. |
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Posted: 7/1/2016 9:13:44 AM EDT
[#15]
Going to the range on lunch, I'll give it a shot. Wont be able to do stage 5 though since I can't really move to cover or shoot kneeling.
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Posted: 7/1/2016 9:24:22 AM EDT
[#16]
The Smith 13/ 65 3" or the Ruger Speed Six in 2 3/4" are probably the best self defense revolvers ever made. Shorter barrels but with a full length ejector rod.
Other than looks, I don't understand the attraction to the short barrel Smith 19. It has the shorter ejector and is much slower to reload. |
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Posted: 7/1/2016 10:37:12 AM EDT
[#17]
OK shooting.
The FBI Target needs scoring rings. The rest of Federal LE (or at least through FLETC) uses the transition target: 
Score to get out of training 210/300 (anybody with working eyes and and hands should be able to do this), I THINK the ICE minimum score was 240, Secret service minimum 270/300, expert starts at 285. The FLETC basic qual course is a pain to find online, but it is a mix of 1.5 yard retention position shooting, 3 yards, 7 yards, 15 yards kneeling, and 25 barricade shooting. In my opinion the FBI stresses speed which is great but if you pull all your rounds low or get consistently marginal hits you still pass. |
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Posted: 7/1/2016 10:38:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Smith 13/ 65 3" or the Ruger Speed Six in 2 3/4" are probably the best self defense revolvers ever made. Shorter barrels but with a full length ejector rod. Other than looks, I don't understand the attraction to the short barrel Smith 19. It has the shorter ejector and is much slower to reload. +1 - perfect mix of length, bulk, speed, and precision in a revolver. |
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Posted: 7/1/2016 11:22:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I appreciate the local color/waltz down memory lane - but again the point of the exercise was again just to see how well the Model 13 did on the current course, not to debate why the FBI adopted pistols in the wake of the Miami shootout. I'm also not real worried about suit jackets as I no longer have to wear a suit. I agree with you, at least historically, about rubber grips - most options back in the day did increase the trigger reach. Pachmayr now sells their professional series which leaves the back strap exposed and is about 10% smaller than their other grips - which eliminates the problem. They also sell their compact grips (as pictured above) which are smaller and also don't pose an issue on a K-frame, unless you've got really tiny hands. ---- What I would appreciate are the specific for the old FBI revolver qualification course in use at the time the Model 13 was issued to agents (1980-91) since it was before my time. That would actually be useful information that I'd find useful for comparison purposes. Well I found this document that has a lot of standards. They do have the old FBI course that was phased out in /97 but it does not go back to the old revolver standard.. Too bad. |
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Posted: 7/2/2016 7:48:36 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK shooting. The FBI Target needs scoring rings. The rest of Federal LE (or at least through FLETC) uses the transition target: http://www.letargets.com/images/ltr-iiflc_L.jpg Score to get out of training 210/300 (anybody with working eyes and and hands should be able to do this), I THINK the ICE minimum score was 240, Secret service minimum 270/300, expert starts at 285. The FLETC basic qual course is a pain to find online, but it is a mix of 1.5 yard retention position shooting, 3 yards, 7 yards, 15 yards kneeling, and 25 barricade shooting. In my opinion the FBI stresses speed which is great but if you pull all your rounds low or get consistently marginal hits you still pass. I've always wondered why FLETC wives weren't referred to as "transitional wives" like the targets. I agree with you on the scoring rings. Although to be fair, the thinking originally behind the Q target (bottle target), included the CNS, heart, lungs and hip girdle. The current QIT is basically the same target minus the hip girdle and with boxes for CNS and cardio hits. --- The CBP Use of Force target is based on the FLETC Transitional II target, but a) the scoring is based on CNS and cardio cardio/pulmonary hits, and b) it's subdued, so you can't use the highlighted bits as aiming points. |
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Posted: 7/2/2016 7:53:19 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Smith 13/ 65 3" or the Ruger Speed Six in 2 3/4" are probably the best self defense revolvers ever made. Shorter barrels but with a full length ejector rod. Other than looks, I don't understand the attraction to the short barrel Smith 19. It has the shorter ejector and is much slower to reload. Short ejector rods are one of the reasons why the Universal and the Stress Fire reloads use the palm of the strong hand to operate the ejector rod, rather than the thumb. It's slower but imparts more force and velocity to the rod. The other reason is the use of the longer .357 case and a tendency for cases in maximum loads in the .357 Mag to stick in the chambers. |
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Posted: 7/2/2016 7:55:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I found this document that has a lot of standards. They do have the old FBI course that was phased out in /97 but it does not go back to the old revolver standard.. Too bad. Thanks, I'm pretty familiar with the FBI's prior course of fire, and oddly enough I've found documentation on what passed for qualification in the 1930s. I just can't find what they did in the declining years of the revolver. |
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Posted: 7/2/2016 8:25:05 AM EDT
[#23]
3 inch wheel guns with fixed sights are the best.
My USPI contract gun.....   S&W Model 13
 GP100 3 inch  |
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Posted: 7/3/2016 7:56:10 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 7/6/2016 7:36:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I appreciate the local color/waltz down memory lane - but again the point of the exercise was again just to see how well the Model 13 did on the current course, not to debate why the FBI adopted pistols in the wake of the Miami shootout. I'm also not real worried about suit jackets as I no longer have to wear a suit. I agree with you, at least historically, about rubber grips - most options back in the day did increase the trigger reach. Pachmayr now sells their professional series which leaves the back strap exposed and is about 10% smaller than their other grips - which eliminates the problem. They also sell their compact grips (as pictured above) which are smaller and also don't pose an issue on a K-frame, unless you've got really tiny hands. ---- What I would appreciate are the specific for the old FBI revolver qualification course in use at the time the Model 13 was issued to agents (1980-91) since it was before my time. That would actually be useful information that I'd find useful for comparison purposes. Yeah, who would want information or background from someone actually there. Nothing worse than first hand accurate info. 
As an aside, usually when people ask for something, they acknowledge it being put up. But I guess since you don't bother reading your PMs or respond, so be it. Standard problem with WannaBees. Lotta posts BSing and no info. The course above was the core/basic revolver course for as long as revolvers were issued. Note the 1997 date. The other ones I had up and pulled off were secondary revolver ourses which eventually got modified into the semi-auto pistol courses. 
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Posted: 7/6/2016 7:40:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Short ejector rods are one of the reasons why the Universal and the Stress Fire reloads use the palm of the strong hand to operate the ejector rod, rather than the thumb. It's slower but imparts more force and velocity to the rod. The other reason is the use of the longer .357 case and a tendency for cases in maximum loads in the .357 Mag to stick in the chambers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Smith 13/ 65 3" or the Ruger Speed Six in 2 3/4" are probably the best self defense revolvers ever made. Shorter barrels but with a full length ejector rod. Other than looks, I don't understand the attraction to the short barrel Smith 19. It has the shorter ejector and is much slower to reload. Short ejector rods are one of the reasons why the Universal and the Stress Fire reloads use the palm of the strong hand to operate the ejector rod, rather than the thumb. It's slower but imparts more force and velocity to the rod. The other reason is the use of the longer .357 case and a tendency for cases in maximum loads in the .357 Mag to stick in the chambers. This is true, I would prefer the little extra barrel length and the longer ejector and have some room for sticky extraction. The grip is the hard part to conceal anyway. Imho |
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Posted: 7/6/2016 8:10:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Smith 13/ 65 3" or the Ruger Speed Six in 2 3/4" are probably the best self defense revolvers ever made. Shorter barrels but with a full length ejector rod. Other than looks, I don't understand the attraction to the short barrel Smith 19. It has the shorter ejector and is much slower to reload. |
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Posted: 7/6/2016 8:27:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Man those 13 in that set up are sexy. I will find one some day to make mine.
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Posted: 7/6/2016 5:04:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man those 13 in that set up are sexy. I will find one some day to make mine. Move fast - Smith revolver are going up in value all the time. Minty older ones without the lock are limited in number and pricing for Smiths is also being affect by the Python lunacy. |
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Posted: 7/6/2016 10:28:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Man those 13 in that set up are sexy. I will find one some day to make mine.   |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 10:20:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Man those 13 in that set up are sexy. I will find one some day to make mine. http://i.imgur.com/OiDa2Nxh.jpg Yeah I have considered the Model 65 as well. |
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Posted: 7/13/2016 11:47:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Neat thread OP. It's making me want to try firing our current quals with a Model 15...
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Posted: 7/25/2016 5:50:40 PM EDT
[#33]
I love 3" revolvers. Here's my 65 along with its somewhat rare 3" Model 632 (.32 Mag) little brother. I keep saying I'm going to bob the hammer on the 65 but haven't gotten around to it.
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Posted: 7/25/2016 6:42:55 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 7/28/2016 3:36:09 PM EDT
[#35]
I would say good shooting, becoming a lost art.
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