I totally hear what you are saying.  There was one time when I thought I was going to have to defend my family and I while traveling late at night.  We were coming back from my in laws in Alabama and there was a crazy driver that seemed to be targeting us.  Almost running us off the road.  It was weird.  I don't know what I did to preturb him, or he was just drunk or something.  I eventually felt it was safer to just get off the freeway and I fully expected him to follow.  I had my Colt DS ready, but I felt infinitely undergunned at that moment.   But "feeling" undergunned and "being" undergunned are two different things.  How do you know you would've missed?  And how do you know he wouldn't have skeedaddled after you pulled your gun?  Or took a shot?  I wasn't there so I'm not trying to judge.  But saying you think you would've missed might be a wise thing and there may be some truth in it.  But you don't really know how it would've turned out had you actually had to shoot.  

I totally get what you're saying though.  More rounds in the gun before reloading just seems prudent.

H&K P30. It isn't much harder to carry a P30 in a good holster than my SP101.

-shooter

In my case, I learned that feeling under-gunned and being under-gunned were really the same thing, i.e., if you are not comfortable with ALL of its attributes, then its the wrong gun. My own internal after-the-fact analysis illustrated for me that I was no longer comfortable carrying a 5-shot gun with a slow reload for personal defense against bi-pedal creatures. In my case, the gun in question was a S&W 642. That gun proved to be quite difficult to maintain proficiency with, given that your firing hand would be hurting, if not injured, before you could make it through a box of 50 rounds. Throw in adrenaline, an increased heart rate, tunnel/blurred vision, and moving targets and you've got the perfect recipe for errant shots.



I've come to terms with the unforseen possibilities of armed confrontations and how my body reacts to these types of situations, and I have re-selected my carry guns accordingly. The majority of people have never found themselves in these types of situations, and in reality they will not know if it is "enough gun" until they have to actually find out. Hopefully those lessons can be learned without anyone getting hurt, as was the case in my example. I often hear people cite statistical probability of having to use the gun as a reason for carrying less gun, but, those stats don't matter one bit once we find ourselves in such a situation. From that point on, the only thing that matters is whether or not you get to go home afterwards. The gun we chose to carry that day could be a determinant in being able to walk away.



I realize this type of chatter will upset the fellowship of the J-frame, but I know from my own experience that it just isn't enough gun for me. Capacity is a huge part of that, and shootability is a close 2nd. Getting a better performing round by switching guns was just a bonus.



 

The training side is HUGE for me. I can shoot different drills, more drills, and better drills with 15 rounds in the gun than I can with five. The reload doesn't just become 3x more frequent with the 5 shot, it becomes more time intensive. So in an hour of range time, you chip away at a lot of it with non-shooting gunhandling. I can practice all that in my dry fire routine at home, I don't need to sacrifice my VERY precious range time to that part of my practice.

-shooter

My thought is if you're looking to carry a jframe-sized gun, a revolver is a great option. If you're able to or comfortable with carrying something larger, then opting for a revolver has a much less compelling argument for it outside of needing a caliber better suited for non-human encounters.

I'm a fish out of water when it comes to doing a speed reload with a revolver, so therefore my lack of experience and training brings me to the autoloader. But I have seen revolver folk that can reload their wheel faster than I can reload a semi.

My point? Leave the edgy comments for GD. Carry what works best for you and disregard the tactical hipsters.

I have felt a bit like that.to be honest. The one time I had to run away from a  lethal situation it was a group of four guys and I'm not sure I would have been comfortable with 5-rounds.

Folks are way too equipment focused here, in general.

I'm confident with whatever I may have on my person, and don't need to tote a 19rd racegun 24/7, and certainly get tired of listening to folks say so.

Some people get very upset if you carry anything but a full size double stack with multiple reloads. Concluding you're basically a sheep and will be found raped, lying in a pool of your own blood, clutching an empty/jammed gun one day. They get very angry as if your life and choices actually effect them.

Probably just the result of watching too many youtube videos of tactical gurus telling them how to they're waiting to get raped and/or die unless they carry a full size double stack with multiple reloads. They become so indoctrinated with this mindset they feel the need to spread the gospel to the unwashed masses.

I hope I don't come across as one of those. While I now prefer a semi when feasible, it isn't always feasible, and some gun is always better than no gun. I will never give up my wheel guns, and if I am in the woods, it will almost always be a .357, not a 9mm. The exception would be if I felt like I was somewhere I needed a .44.

-shooter

When the man with the other gun gets killed, revolver carrier picks up the new gun.

The revolver can shoot before the draw. It's got some advantages people ignore.

People should carry whatever they want, as 99.9999% of the time conceal carry is only fulfilling a psychological need to feel prepared and secure. As long as the firearm you choose is able to travel with YOU everywhere, and it makes YOU feel prepared and secure, then who is anyone to tell you that you've made the wrong choice?

For what it's worth I carry both semi autos and revolvers.

lol

So, you can pull the trigger on a revolver "before the draw" which will leave a hole in your pants, probably a burn on your leg and more than likely a MISS on your target.

Awesome plan...

How about carry a better weapon and learn to use it? Why plan on using a crappy weapon in order to obtain a better one? Why not just carry a better one in the first place?

I'm guessing that if this is your plan that the guy that brings the better gun to the fight might be batter at planning and possibly using his weapon.

I've used my gun in several situations, never backed down from a violent encounter and never wet my pants, but nice personal attack..

I believe he means shooting through a jacket pocket. I don't know who would try to shoot a gun in their pants pocket.

There are a number of malfunctions that can occur with a revolver (small or large) and most of them keep the cylinder from rotating when they do.

That fucks a wheel gun. Period.

An auto loader doesn't have that weakness.

What would stop a cylinder from rotating outside of a parts breakage? Auto loaders are 100% dependent on ammo to function, until you plan on cycling the slide after every shot like a bolt action, this is not the case with a revolver.

Either way, how many of you wheel-gun-warriors practice that? How many of you can make a hit on a moving target past 5-7 yards in a vital doing that BS?

Is that actually how you guys expect a mass shooting/jihad scenario to play out? As if you are being held up at 2-3 yards at the ATM!?!?

And I'm the guy being called a "mall ninja" in this thread... unfuckingbelievable

Just because it doesn't work with your airsoft gun doesn't mean it does not work.

comment removed, warning issued -Roadhawk

"What would stop a cylinder from rotating outside of a parts breakage? Auto loaders are 100% dependent on ammo to function, until you plan on cycling the slide after every shot like a bolt action, this is not the case with a revolver."

Bullet walk. (Also called "bullet jump")
Bent ejection rod.
Ejection rod slightly unscrewed. (Left hand threaded btw, and yes they do walk loose.)
High primer.
Even the slightest deformation of a shell rim. (Which is more common than you think.)

I can list more malfunctions with revolvers if you want. The bottom line is that with a revolver a "malfunction" tends to put the gun out of commission, and usually cannot be fixed with out tools. Auto loaders can usually be remedied within seconds.

"Just because it doesn't work with your airsoft gun doesn't mean it does not work.

comment removed - Roaghawk

Reported.

This is a tech forum. If you can't handle it, keep your insults to yourself.

You cited airsoft training as a basis for your credibility, I am merely referencing prior comments.

get back to the discussion and stop the personal insults - Roadhawk

I guess I'll just reply with out airsoft, mall ninja or my finger on a report button.

No to the original posting. Small guns have their place. Sometimes you can't carry a large pistol. I'm comfortable with either my 642 or PPK/S (only smalls I have with some penetration) to about ten yards for rapid fire. I can get all in the black with either. It's all fine and good as long as you can get to it. If someone gets the drop on you, even a ma duce won't be of any help. As far as I'm concerned, neither of my smalls are meant to go toe to toe with someone but simply to get you out of a bad situation while saying, and I quote, "Feets, don't fail me now".

  Said the king personal attacks.

   Me too! We'll except a couple of times when I dropped the controller into my bowl of popcorn and got butter all over the buttons and joystick. I'm sure you k ow EXACTLY what I mean.

  See how easy that was? Why don't you just tell us how many people you've had to take out? You could also tell us you prevailed only because you were carrying a semi and your enemies were carrying revolvers. You know...just make shit up to prove your point.

This is the everlasting truth and begs to be resaid with requoting.

The shotgun threads, the AK threads, the handgun discussion forum where everyone will argue you to death that the only answer is a garbage glock, and when someone asks for advice and says no glocks, they get easily butthurt as if the OP snuck into their house and had carnal knowledge with their teen daughter, then proceeded to finger bang their wife...

Oh that's awful.  But I love the hyperbole and agree.

Actually I have no idea what you are talking about.

But if you think that a 6-shooter is a better fighting tool than a high capacity auto loader against multiple targets, then I'm not the one living in a fantasy.

Are you saying that I've never drawn a gun on anyone before? People actually use their guns to defend themselves you know...

You use the easily concealable gun..
To shoot, and take the bad guys rifle.



I call it the Liberator strategy.

Can you show me where I said I used airsoft training as a basis of my credibility? I said we could load up some airsoft pistols (my kids have them) and have some fun. But I never said that my opinion is based on playing airsoft. I said my opinion comes from training at a SOCOM-approved shooting school. Apparently you missed that part.

A bent ejection rod wil absolutely keep the cylinder from rotating as it comes into contact with the bbl. A shorted ejector rod can prevent this, however older revolvers have exposed rods.

All magnum calibers are prone to bullet jump, not just big bore. I've seen it on several occasions.

A slight deformation in a shell rim will cause a cylinder to fail to rotate, which is what you asked about. I'm not talking about ejection issues. There are several other malfunctions associated with the revolver, but clearly you aren't in a mindset to learn so I'll leave it be.

I might give more credence to what you're saying if you didn't contradict yourself.  Most of those malfs that you just described wouldn't need a tool to address.  Deformed shell rims and high primers, bullet walk and probably even a bent rod wouldn't cause malfs that needed tools.  I would think that a rod that got bent to the point of making the gun inoperable would show evidence of it ahead of time.  Unless it was dropped.  I guess that could cause problems.  But dropping a gun could possibly cause problems with an auto too.  

Furthermore, that's cool if you're a BTDT guy and don't like it.  I would surely put some stock into what a guy has to say about something that has seen some stuff.  But the flipside to that is there are a few guys I know, that don't really have to say the BTDT, but I'm pretty sure they have, that sometimes carry revolvers.  And yeah, I agree with the fact that there is no perfect tool.  Everything has it's upsides and downsides.  It might very well be that the revolver has MORE downsides in a modern gunfight than an auto.  But at the same time I like the first rule of a gunfight is to have one.  And my 442 is almost always on me.   I don't think I would mind if I found an auto that filled the same role.  But I by no means would think it doesn't have some downsides.   I think it's getting better overall, but for sure the smaller an auto was, the more finnicky it would be and might not be as reliable as one might like to see.  And even though revolver certainly aren't perfect, I don't think they're completely stupid either.  

I can think of a few guns I think I'd like the best in theory, but I've never owned them and life hasn't made it happen yet.  I like a Sig P239 DAK, or DA/SA would be ok too.  I would like some flavor of 9mm single stack 3rd gen Smith auto.  A 9mm 1911 CCO would probably be super awesome.  All of these I think would probably be more capable than my 442, but a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.   And none of them would carry as easily as the 442.  But comfort isn't necessarily the thing we should always be trying to achieve with our carry gun.  I think.

This is all I'm saying but some folks here think having a 5 or 6 shot revolver in the unfortunate situation of a mob/jihad attack is just fine.

We wouldn't even have this thread if JJREA didn't have the nagging suspicion that a j-frame was in some way insufficient...

This is all I'm trying to say. If someone is trying to kill you, don't you already have enough problems?

I didn't say all those malfunctions required tools but generally the gun is out of the fight if they occur. Three of the five I mentioned could require a tool depending on how fucked it is. For example an un-threded ejector rod can be retightened with your fingers on an un-shrouded model (such as my model 13-4.) But a shrouded model will require needle nose pliers to reopen the cylinder...

And I have drawn my pistol twice in my lifetime, and luckily a verbal challenge defused the situation both times. The first time with a revolver and it was luckily one guy. The second was also one guy and I had my Sig P220 on me at the time. I carried an Air Weight .38 Special for years. I think that with the modern phenomenon of gang attacks and possible jihadist threats a 5 shot gun is out of the question. I've also recently gotten in the habit of having a rifle in my truck which I never really felt was necessary.

You asked "Any of you J frame carriers feel like you need more after these attacks and such?" and I think the answer is YES. I was considering a J frame as a last resort gun but honestly my Shield is about the same size and keeps me in the fight almost twice as long before a reload in a J frame. It reloads faster and IMHO is less prone to go down on a fight. When I can I carry a full size M&P with a reload. My day to day work environment makes the Shield a better option.

Thanks for asking an honest question. I think it's important that everyone is taking these attacks seriously.

Question 1) Why are you so obsessed with defending yourself? Do you make a habit of being places you shouldn't be or do you have really poor situational awareness? Seriously, you're obsession with defending yourself is troubling. Surely it's either fantasy or just downright fear.

 Question 2) If you're such a revolver hater, why do hang out in the revolver forum? You could always hangout on semi auto forums with like minded people.

 Some of us just don't like semi autos. There's nothing wrong with that anymore than some folks not liking revolvers.

 Your preoccupation with changing the minds of those who disagree with you is a sign of low self esteem. So rather than attending SOCOM training, which you are likely to never need, you might seek some help with your personality issues which are used daily.

^^ He's right.

THIS

I'm not going to argue with you about how to interpret what you said about tools and malfs with revolvers.  It's all there in black and white.  The shield is certainly a good choice.  My buddy at church carries his quite a bit.  I've got to get him to let me try it out.  I do know that I really don't "like" carrying a double stack gun.  The last time I wore my M9 for a day, I had a backache the next day.  I'm not sure if it was the gun or coincidental, but sitting with it just makes things more interesting.  I know there are a lot of doublestacks that aren't that big.  But a double stack mag hanging off my belt in a carries sticks out like a soar thumb and I usually carry the mag in my front left pocket.   When I was borrowing my bil's 1911, the single stack mag made that so much more user friendly.  Now, I'm sure all of these things could be overcome with the right clothes and gear and such.  But the fact is, in the summer when it's hot, those options start to decrease rapidly.  I'm not going to walk around in a jacket when it's 90 out.  So any way you slice it, if I'm going to buy another gun for carrying, it's more than likely going to be single stack for the warmer weather.  

Anyways....  I'm rambling.  

I am going to take a stab at these two as an interested party - but clearly in the middle on this issue



I have a crazy belief that more armed people (who know what they are doing with said tools - but level of competence is an individual choice, not a government one) is good. If I am ever in a mall where there are bad guys shooting the place up, I hope there are good guys returning fire - with judicious accuracy. I could care less what other people are comfortable carrying - it is an intensely personal choice. However, that fact may make me a bad person to answer the two questions above.

-shooter

My last post on this subject.

1. My .38+P J-frames back up my larger .357 Magnum revolvers (K/L frame). Other people have different perceptions of their threat level based for the most part on reasonable assumptions.

2. My revolvers are NOT crappier choices for a defensive engagement than any other handgun. If I thought I was going to be in a gunfight, I would carry a rifle.

3. I qualify on the same course of fire as other officers in my state and generally outshoot my overwhelmingly Glock-armed counterparts. Speed and accuracy are more important than volume of fire.

4. Maintenance and inspection of firearms and factory ammunition will prevent 99.99...% of all revolver malfunctions. Ejector rods don't spontaneously "bend." In any case, I carry more than one revolver. In more than 45 years of shooting handguns, "bullet jump" has only happened to me with Speer shot cartridges in "Ultralite" or "Airweight" guns.

5. I don't go to the semiautomatic pistol board and tell people they are stupid for carrying a bottom feeder, especially a plastic one. Don't do the reverse on the Revolver board. It's called common courtesy.

6. Carry what you will and whatever ammo amount you think appropriate to the perceived threat level. Just be proficient, fast, and accurate.

Done.

Shooting through a pocket isn't done on the move. It is done as surprise.

I'm ready, and I have won gun fights. I have nothing to justify to you or anyone else.

The revolver remains a relevant defensive tool. It isn't the only tool, but there are situations where nothing beats it.

Only time I've seen or heard of an ejector rod bent completely out of function was from either someone dropping the gun on it or a barrel bulging to the point of bending the rod (which means you have a bigger problem than a bad ejector rod).

And yes, inspection of carry ammo will negate pretty much all revolver-specific ammo issues.

Boy.. this thread got pretty silly in places.  Sometimes I wonder if folks around here actually face the day-to-day of carrying a firearm.  When I need to grab something to tuck in my front pocket, there isn't a better choice than a J frame S&W with a laser sight.  Other times I may carry a full or compact size 9mm in an IWB rig.  But if you don't find circumstances where you don't want to do that, then you probably don't carry across a very diverse set of circumstances.

Also, for our younger viewers I would note that there have been highly reliable 9mm and 45acp semiautomatics available from before WW2.  Ammunition and ammunition testing have gotten better.  So rather than choosing the tried and true 125gr .357 HP to be sure of your sidearm, we can now have choices in 9mm.  And while I wouldn't choose it because of recoil, the .357 still does things a 9mm can't.  

As for a revolver being 'enough gun' for CCW.. that is a personal choice.  Hopefully people have a realistic view of the threats they face.  Though I am, of course, gratified to know that there are those among us ready for terrorists, gangs, and rhino charges.  Keep up the good work..

So...is Jerry outgunned?

Carry what works for you. I don't tell others what to carry or like, please give that same respect to others.

Jerry could carry a NAA .22 Short revolver, and I wouldn't worry about him!

In my line of work I got used to carrying heavy, so that's what I do off duty, too, for the most part.

S&W 442 is backup to my Glock 19 or 20 . I carry 2 spare mags and 2 speed strips on the gun belt with the Glock. The 442 is in a Die Hard ankle rig. Rather have all this stuff on me and not need it than need it and not have

My 340 has it's place, and always will have it's place. Its a convenient, run out real quick gun. Whether it's down the street, take the dog out, run to the gym, etc. It's not the best option or even my primary option, but it's an option I like to have.

Regardless, even if it's not my primary carry gun, it often fills the role of BUG off duty. On duty my 340 is always in my ankle holster or off side cargo pocket.

They have their place for me.

Meh, I have a Mod 36 thats about to make it's debut in the carry stable once I get some more practice with it.  I really do want to carry it, but I'm getting myself in the mindset of putting 500 rounds through a carry piece before it goes to the rotation.  I've been bad about that in the past.

My stance has been and always will be to carry what you're comfortable with.  I've tried getting my dad into semi autos for years, but he simply cannot manipulate a slide.  Long story short, he fought the saw and the saw won.  Still has both hands, but limited use out of his left.  He is as proficient with speed loaders as he probably can be.  He carries a charter arms mag pug and is pleased.  It's what he's comfortable with, and it'll do him just fine.  

I carry a Glock 34 in my bag, and a Sig 938 IWB with two reloads for the glock.  I've always heard, and trained, maybe I'm wrong, but you use your pistol to get out of the situation.  I've made my choice to carry those pieces because I'm trained on them, I'm familiar, and I'm comfortable with them.  In a high stress situation where I actually have to use it?  Well.  I don't know because I haven't been there and I sure as fuck hope I never have to be there.

I'm five with 5 rounds and a revolver what bothers me is range if you see the Nairobi mall or Paris attacks you'll notice 50 meter & even 100 meter shots are presenting themselves.
So If I don't carry my mod60 I'll dtep up tu my 4" 686 7 shot I have learned to get 100 meter hits with it.