S&W 610 does not set off some ammo

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - S&W 610 does not set off some ammo

Posted: 3/9/2015 11:19:29 PM EDT

I took my S&W 610 to the range yesterday and had an odd problem, one I can't recall having before.

Some of the cartridges simply would not go off. Out of about 25 rounds of CCI Blazer aluminum cased, 165 gr. .40 S&W, four simply would not ignite, even after three or four attempts. They would not fire in either single or double-action modes.

I bought two cases (2000 rounds) of this ammunition in either 2007 or 2008, and am down to the last few hundred cartridges. The vast majority of it has been shot in my S&W M&P semiauto. I can't recall having ever had a CCI Blazer .40 S&W cartridge fail to ignite like this in the M&P, or indeed malfunction in any way.

What's going on? Have you ever seen this happen in a S&W 610 revolver?

I shot a bunch of my 10mm reloads in the 610 as well, and had a few of those that required a second strike to go off, but they did go off. As with the Blazer .40 S&W, it didn't seem to matter whether I was shooting single or double-action - I still had a couple that didn't go off the first time, although a far smaller percentage (perhaps 2 or 4 out of approx. 100 rounds of 10mm fired).

Normally I would chalk it up to "eh, reloads," but none of the 10mm reloads had incompletely-seated primers, they were only a couple of years old at most, and were from the same batches that have worked flawlessly in my 10mm semiauto pistols (also S&W guns, a 1006 and 1066).

Is there something wrong with my 610?

Posted: 3/9/2015 11:45:22 PM EDT

[#1]

Make sure your mainspring strain screw on the front of the grip is sufficiently tightened down.

Sometimes these can be covered up by the grips, like Hogues.

Posted: 3/10/2015 12:55:56 AM EDT

[#2]

You are loading them into a moon clip.. correct?

Posted: 3/10/2015 1:09:49 AM EDT

[#3]

I had the same problem with a 610 years ago.

It did this with 10mm and 40 S&W ammo. Reloads and factory ammo.

I finally concluded that because the rimless case was designed to headspace on the case mouth, and not the rim, that the moonclips were allowing them to slide to far forward into the chamber preventing the firing pin from dimpling the primer enough to ignite.

I eventually sold the gun.

Posted: 3/10/2015 1:47:26 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
You are loading them into a moon clip.. correct?

View Quote

Yes, and this is important.

FWIW I haven't tried factory 10mm in the 610 except on vanishingly few occasions, due to the cost of factory 10mm ammo. But those few times, the factory loads always went off.

I ran out of my .40 S&W reloads a long time ago, since I haven't reloaded in over 2 years. I don't remember having this non-ignition problem with my .40 S&W reloads, but I could be mistaken.

The screw that tensions the mainspring seems the most likely culprit.

(update)

Nope, that wasn't it. I removed the Hogue grip and inspected the mainspring tension screw. It's very solidly locked in place. I couldn't even turn it a little with a screwdriver.

I did have that problem (mainspring strain screw working loose) on my 625. Eventually I tightened it and used a little Loctite to ensure it wouldn't back out. I haven't had an ignition problem in the 625 ever since.

It could be that aluminum-cased Blazer .40 S&W is just no good in a 610. S&W does say you can use .40 S&W ammunition in the 610, even though it's marked as a 10mm gun. (S&W product sheet for the 610) Maybe I'll call them tomorrow. I figure I'm on my own with the 10mm reloads so I won't even mention that, but it would be interesting to see whether they've heard about a problem with Blazer ammo in the 610 before.

Posted: 3/10/2015 7:51:29 AM EDT

[#5]

On my 625 and 610 I installed extended firing pins. The factory firing pins tend to be on the short side so they can pass drop tests. If yours was working before with the same ammo, it is probably the mainspring strain screw.

Posted: 3/10/2015 8:28:23 AM EDT

[#6]

Check you main spring; seated correctly in frame and on hammer pivot, not rubbing your grips or hitting the grip screw (depending on grip type), and that the tension screw has not back out. Check that the tip of your firing pin has not chipped or eroded and is free to move in the frame (if frame mounted, my 610 is hammer mounted). Look and the feel if the hammer is dragging on the frame robbing it of some of it energy.

Posted: 3/13/2015 2:27:28 AM EDT

[#7]

I bought some other brands of .40 S&W ammunition to try this weekend. One was good old Winchester white box, one was Perfecta.

I'm going to try some factory 10mm ammunition as well, just for fun. It is Federal.

If there's really a problem with the gun, trying three different brands of ammunition should confirm it!

Posted: 3/13/2015 7:34:30 AM EDT

[#8]

Make sure you check your moon clips. If they're a little bit bent they'll act as a spring and absorb some of the firing pin's energy. You might also number them so you can tell if it's a problem with one or two of the clips.

Posted: 3/13/2015 8:37:45 AM EDT

[#9]

Moonclips should not be an issue with ignition. Before shooting take each loaded moonclip drop it in the cylinder. Close the cylinder. With the revolver pointed in a safe direction and your finger OFF the trigger pull the hammer back just far enough to unlock the cylinder. Rotate the cylinder by hand. If it rotates freely you are good to go. If it drags heavily straighten or discard that moonclip. If the cylinder rotates freely then the moonclip will not cause an ignition problem. You either have a damaged/stuck/dirty firing pin or something robbing your hammer of energy.

Did you buy you 610 used? Its not uncommon for competitive revolver shooters to tune their revolvers so light that they will only reliably ignite Federal primers. At one point in time my 610 was tune like that. If it was something other than Federal primers it would fail to ignite one or two rounds per cylinder. Turn up the tension screw on the hammer if you suspect that.

Posted: 3/13/2015 11:00:03 AM EDT

[#10]

No, I am the 610's only owner, ever. It still has the original nice, smooth, long, and heavy double action trigger pull.

Bent moonclips could certainly cause an issue, but I've thrown away any that appear the slightest bit out of true. I've found the clips can't really be made flat again, once damaged.

Some of the moonclips are Ranch brand, some are the ones supplied with the gun by S&W. They are visually indistinguishable. I'm sure if I got after them with dial calipers, I wouldn't find any significant difference there, either.

Posted: 3/13/2015 11:16:58 AM EDT

[#11]

Never seen a moonclip cause an ignition problem if it was flat enough that the cylinder was free to rotate.

If the moonclip is not kinked they can usually be saved if your willing to pay for the tool:

http://www.tkcustom.com/cart/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=144&cat=S%26W+-+Moonclip+Saver+Tool

My pile of bent moonclips is almost large enough to justify the cost especially in light of the growing number of more expensive 627 8-shot moonclips.

Good luck diagnosing your problem, let us know what it is when you find it.

Posted: 3/14/2015 1:33:43 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
I bought some other brands of .40 S&W ammunition to try this weekend. One was good old Winchester white box, one was Perfecta.

I'm going to try some factory 10mm ammunition as well, just for fun. It is Federal.

If there's really a problem with the gun, trying three different brands of ammunition should confirm it!

View Quote

Federal Primers are the most sensitive (easiest to set off)
CCI are the least sensitive.

Winchester and Remington are in the middle.

Odds are you need to check your mainspring. You are getting light strikes. This may indicate you need a new spring or more likely then tension screw is loose.

Posted: 3/14/2015 9:35:39 PM EDT

[#13]

Quick and dirty:

It looks like it was a firing pin problem. Powder residue and assorted other dirt in the firing pin channel, and a damaged firing pin. The Winchester and Perfecta .40 S&W ammunition functioned 100%, as did Federal 10mm.

More detailed version:

I took the 610 to a gunsmith after the range. He found and removed powder residue and assorted other grime in the firing pin channel, and also confirmed something I'd suspected: the firing pin is a bit damaged on the end. I had noticed that it was producing somewhat irregular-looking indentations in primers (photos to be posted later). I don't know how it got damaged, as I'm pretty sure I've never seen a pierced primer with this gun, but there it is all the same.

So I'm going to replace the firing pin, and clean out the channel periodically (maybe once a year, or whenever I think about it).

Posted: 3/16/2015 9:37:21 AM EDT

[#14]

It's a gun/ammo problem. S&W is known for using shorter firing pins in their revolvers to pass drop tests. Even with a full power mainspring, screw tensioned down, new, brand new perfectly flat moon clips, my S&W 327 PC 2" .357 would fail to fire 3-4 rounds out of 8 shots with the Blazer Aluminum stuff with the standard firing pin, 1-3 light strikes on Winchester PDX1, Remington Golden Saber and Gold Dots and other brands of ammo. It was a rarity if all 8 rounds went off with it. Even went back to S&W because it was not firing most ammunition consistently (1-4 light primer strikes per cylinder depending on the ammo used). They did some work, replaced the main spring and stuff and it still had issues when I got it back, just not as often. I installed a Cylinder and Slide extended firing pin and I get good strikes on everything except the Blazer Aluminum stuff. I tried it with and without moon clips and 2 different brands of moon clips, same issue. My 686+, 386PD work fine with the Blazer aluminum ammo, but the 327 hates it.

Posted: 3/19/2015 1:03:38 AM EDT

[#15]

Well this is very cool. I called S&W to try to purchase a replacement firing pin, since I couldn't find a factory original one for sale anywhere.

They're sending me a new one for free!

I considered the aftermarket firing pins, but since the gun never had this ignition problem before, I didn't care to mess with things by putting in an extra-length firing pin. Also, "free" beats the heck out of $15+shipping (average price for the Cylinder & Slide etc. aftermarket pins).

FWIW, here is a picture of some of the brass from the test firing last weekend. If you zoom in, you might be able to see the slightly irregular firing pin impressions in the primers. That's why I thought the firing pin might need replacing:

The lone Blazer case on the right is from one of the four cartridges that simply would not go off a few weekends ago. It did finally go off after umpty-ump tries (at least 5 or 6!).

For a follow-up, I plan to try some more Blazer in the gun, once I have the new firing pin installed.

Posted: 4/5/2015 4:58:35 PM EDT

[#16]

Got the new firing pin from S&W a few days ago. Here it is next to the old firing pin (left):

There's obviously some damage to the old firing pin. Must have pierced a few primers, although I never noticed any pierced primers when I removed brass.

I replaced it with the new firing pin, and will be going to the range shortly to make sure the gun works. Also because it's a beautiful day out, and our range will be closed for an organized event next weekend.

Posted: 4/5/2015 5:11:58 PM EDT

[#17]

I notice that a lot of the primers have off center strikes. Did your smith check the timing with a range rod? Might be a timing issue.

Posted: 4/5/2015 9:59:52 PM EDT

[#18]

A new issue surfaced today. No idea what happened, but the firing pin was not resetting after firing. So the whole works bound up, because the firing pin was getting stuck in the primers.

It's going back to the gunsmith as soon as I can get around to it.

Posted: 4/6/2015 7:22:18 PM EDT

[#19]

I recommend you get an Apex Tactical XP firing pin and firing pin rebound
spring. The Apex Tactical XP firing pin is slightly longer, .500"+ compared to
the factory firing pins .495" length. The Apex firing pin rebound spring is
made of thinner wire which allows the firing pin to go further forward.

Polish the Apex XP firing pin using something like Mother's Mag and Wheel
Polish or Flitz. Chuck the firing pin in an electric screw driver or a portable drill
polishing both the small portion that goes through the frame and the larger
section just in back of smaller portion. Make them shine.You should also
polish the cut away section the rides over the retaining pin

Before installing the new firing pin and firing pin rebound spring you should
clean and polish the firing pin channel. Put something like Mother's Mag and
Wheel Polish or Flitz on an ear swab and run in in and out of the firing
pin channel.

Take a small drill bit and run it through the firing pin hole BY HAND to knock
off any burrs. Burrs rubbing against the firing pin will slow its forward motion.

Clean out the firing pin channel. Got it clean? Good. Clean it out again as
you don't want any of the polishing compound left in the firing pin channel
or in the firing pin hole.

Reassemble and give those .40 S&W cartridges another whirl.
.
I did all of the above to solve the same problem with my PC 625.

Good luck.

Posted: 4/8/2015 12:58:38 AM EDT

[#20]

I have no idea how, but it seems I'm missing a firing pin return spring.

When I originally removed the firing pin (the old, chipped one), I don't remember said spring flying or falling out of the channel. But it must have. S&W confirmed on the phone today that there should be a spring in there which ensures that the otherwise-floating pin returns after being struck by the hammer. That's almost certainly why the pin was getting stuck sticking out of its hole behind the cylinder.

They also said that no hand fitting should be required. The firing pin should be a drop-in replacement, assuming the return spring is still there.

Unfortunately, they are out of firing pin return springs. They "may" have more in 2 weeks supposedly, so I guess I'll call back then. I've had no luck so far finding aftermarket firing pin return springs. Even Wolff Gunsprings doesn't sell them.

Posted: 4/8/2015 9:04:34 AM EDT

[#21]

Go over to the Revolver section of Brian Enos' forum and ask about that spring. I bet you can find a good alternate source there.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=43

Posted: 4/9/2015 9:19:16 AM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have no idea how, but it seems I'm missing a firing pin return spring.

When I originally removed the firing pin (the old, chipped one), I don't remember said spring flying or falling out of the channel. But it must have. S&W confirmed on the phone today that there should be a spring in there which ensures that the otherwise-floating pin returns after being struck by the hammer. That's almost certainly why the pin was getting stuck sticking out of its hole behind the cylinder.

They also said that no hand fitting should be required. The firing pin should be a drop-in replacement, assuming the return spring is still there.

Unfortunately, they are out of firing pin return springs. They "may" have more in 2 weeks supposedly, so I guess I'll call back then. I've had no luck so far finding aftermarket firing pin return springs. Even Wolff Gunsprings doesn't sell them.

View Quote

You might what to consider going to Brownell's site and seeing if they have the spring. They probably do.

Posted: 4/9/2015 8:31:00 PM EDT

[#23]

Brownell's doesn't carry one, except for .22 LR S&W revolvers, and even that is out of stock.

Posted: 4/9/2015 8:40:23 PM EDT

[#24]

MidwayUSA doesn't have it either. Yup, my 610 is going to be out of action for a bit.

Posted: 4/9/2015 9:46:03 PM EDT

[#25]

Did you call Apex Tactical? They might sell you just a spring. Or you could buy one of there firing pin kits and have a spare firing pin and get the spring you need.

Posted: 4/12/2015 6:28:29 AM EDT

[#26]

Midway lists them on their website.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/471194/smith-and-wesson-firing-pin-spring-s-and-w-10-11-13-5-14-7-15-8-17-18-19-8-29-7-32-34-38-3-42-60-9-63-66-5-67-4-242-296-317-325pd-329pd-332-337-337pd-340-340pd-342-342pd-351pd?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Posted: 4/13/2015 12:16:26 AM EDT

[#27]

That's for L-frame S&W revolvers. I wouldn't assume it would work in an N-frame, though it's possible.

Posted: 4/13/2015 8:09:50 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
That's for L-frame S&W revolvers. I wouldn't assume it would work in an N-frame, though it's possible.

View Quote

I believe it is the same spring in all the frame mounted firing pin guns.

Posted: 4/27/2015 11:58:54 PM EDT

[#29]

Well anyway I called S&W and I'm supposedly on a waiting list for a couple of firing pin return springs, as soon as they have more.

I'm sure I'll forget about it and one day they'll just be here.

Posted: 5/9/2015 1:05:37 PM EDT

[#30]

Got them yesterday.

Installed a new firing pin return spring in the 625. It works now.

Went to install one in the 610...guess what, there was still a spring in the hole, but I guess it was mashed up in the front of the firing pin channel extra hard. Anyway it fell out when I removed the firing pin.

There's still some sort of problem with the firing pin (remember, this is a brand new firing pin). Seems to be binding up in the hole it comes out of. Guess it's time to take a few strokes on it with a file, or something like that.

Posted: 5/9/2015 1:50:39 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Got them yesterday.

Installed a new firing pin return spring in the 625. It works now.

Went to install one in the 610...guess what, there was still a spring in the hole, but I guess it was mashed up in the front of the firing pin channel extra hard. Anyway it fell out when I removed the firing pin.

There's still some sort of problem with the firing pin (remember, this is a brand new firing pin). Seems to be binding up in the hole it comes out of. Guess it's time to take a few strokes on it with a file, or something like that.

View Quote

Look for burs on the new firing pin. Also make sure that the hole it goes into is clean. Look at the hole where the firing pin come through the recoil sheild and make sure there is no build up or burs there either.

Posted: 5/14/2015 8:09:00 PM EDT

[#32]

Firing pin hole is clean, and pin itself is burr-free.

The new firing pin must simply be out of spec. I can't get a good measurement of the "shoulder" where the cylindrical body transitions to the tapered actual pin portion, but clearly something is too large, since it gets stuck in the hole every time. I even tried it in the 625: yep, gets stuck out of the hole in that one, too.

I thought about calling S&W for another new firing pin. Doesn't seem worth the hassle - especially if I wait 3 weeks, for a firing pin which is again out of spec. Yes, I'm stubborn, cheap, and not in a hurry to get the gun working again.

So far I'm trying sandpaper, to remove just enough metal that the firing pin will no longer get stuck in the hole. It's very slow going though. The pin is so tiny that it's hard to get a grip on, and it's very awkward and tiring to apply the sandpaper as well. I almost wish I had a Dremel, but that would probably just screw things up faster.

If you have a more workable idea than trying to sand down the firing pin to spec, please share it. So far all I've managed to accomplish is a very highly polished firing pin. I'm not really interested in purchasing an aftermarket pin (see: cheap & stubborn, above) - for all I know it would still require hand fitting.

So much for interchangeable parts and "no hand-fitting required."

Posted: 5/15/2015 9:27:27 AM EDT

[#33]

Grab one end of the firing pin in a 3 jaw drill chuck and spin it against some fine sand paper or a jewelers file. Will make things much easier and keep things rounder. They sell a very small 3 jaw chuck for a dremmel tool that would be perfect for the job.

Posted: 5/25/2015 2:06:44 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Grab one end of the firing pin in a 3 jaw drill chuck and spin it against some fine sand paper or a jewelers file. Will make things much easier and keep things rounder. They sell a very small 3 jaw chuck for a dremmel tool that would be perfect for the job.

View Quote

This was the winner. It only took a few minutes of drill and sandpaper time to remove just enough metal to keep the pin from getting stuck in the hole.

Also I now have an exceedingly smooth and shiny firing pin.

Going to the range to verify function. The pin retracts as it should on every dry fire, but live fire is the only way to be sure.

Posted: 5/25/2015 4:07:26 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
I notice that a lot of the primers have off center strikes. Did your smith check the timing with a range rod? Might be a timing issue.

View Quote

I'm curious about the apparent off center strikes too.
It seems that ignition would be difficult if the strikes are near the edge of the primer.
I can't really see a repeatable strike pattern from moon-clip to moon-clip.

Could some of the moon clips somehow be holding the cartridges skewed in the cylinder?

Posted: 5/25/2015 7:43:21 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

This was the winner. It only took a few minutes of drill and sandpaper time to remove just enough metal to keep the pin from getting stuck in the hole.

Also I now have an exceedingly smooth and shiny firing pin.

Going to the range to verify function. The pin retracts as it should on every dry fire, but live fire is the only way to be sure.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Grab one end of the firing pin in a 3 jaw drill chuck and spin it against some fine sand paper or a jewelers file. Will make things much easier and keep things rounder. They sell a very small 3 jaw chuck for a dremmel tool that would be perfect for the job.

This was the winner. It only took a few minutes of drill and sandpaper time to remove just enough metal to keep the pin from getting stuck in the hole.

Also I now have an exceedingly smooth and shiny firing pin.

Going to the range to verify function. The pin retracts as it should on every dry fire, but live fire is the only way to be sure.

Hope it tests well, good luck!

Posted: 5/31/2015 2:29:06 AM EDT

[#37]

Seems to be in working order again! Shot it in an action pistol match this morning and it worked perfectly.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - S&W 610 does not set off some ammo

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