Well for what it's worth, I ordered a couple of boxes of the corbon dpx 110 and the speer gold dot +p.  


If my original post wasn't good enough at specifying barrel length.  I apologize.  I had a feeling throwing both revolvers in the question would make it a bit confusing.  

I am trying to understand which load would be ideal for either revolver,  and realize that what works in one might not work in the other one.  The big question on my mind right now is if the Speer Gold dot 135 +p's would still be good in my 6".  I'm not sure if the bump in velocity will make them penetrate less.  Which I really don't want.  But it does seem like when they get full expansion, they still penetrate to acceptable levels.  BUT, if the bullet is designed for snubbies, the extra velocity might have them start separating.  But they are bonded, right?  

I like your explanation about the XTP and I actually emailed Hornady to see if they had tests done or know of independent tests.  I haven't seen anything on if it's fired from a longer barrel.  Which is also a case in point, the recommendations on this site in the ammo forum do seem to focus on a snubby, because it is generally accepted that the only "serious" guns in .38 are snubbies for BUG.  It doesn't seem to take into account those of us that might use a revolver for HD with a longer barrel, or even some carry a 3 or 4" concealed.  

Anyways....  I also think the 158 grain +p lead semi wadcutter by Remington or Federal, maybe less so Winchester, but all of those would be a good round from a snubby AND maybe even more so a longer barrel.  As I understand it.  But for some reason it's not making "the list" and I'm not sure why.  I also can't find any of those to buy at this point.  Although Remington's website is awful but I think they are selling these in the HTP line, but I can't quite tell.  I say that because I think wholesale hunter had a listing for the HTP and I think it was a lead swchp.  I can't remember if it was plus p or not.  

Anyways.......

I'll probably just carry the gold dots.  Unless I really hate shooting plus p's in my 442, I might stick to the corbon.   I really wish there was a standard pressure load, OTHER than the lighter corbon that would make the grade in the 442. The fact is, there might be one that I wouldn't mind carrying because I don't mind if a bullet penetrates well and maybe only opens up a little less than what others desire.

Wife carries this in hers and I carry it in mine.

This. I keep .38s around the house for the wife. She is not into guns, so they make sense.

They all essentially work the same, no matter if Colt or smith. Simply aim and shoot. I've instructed her to not even bother reloading. Just grab the next one and get to work.

They may be old fashioned, but I would not want to be within range of the bride when she is protecting her cubs. She goes high order violent with short notice...

I use that load as well in a 4" S&W 66 that I keep handy for the GF. She doesn't semi autos or recoil so its the perfect combo.

Where are you guys getting it?  I would like to nab some of those.

158gr JHP's!  It's what this 38/357 was designed for!

So why aren't there any 158gr LSWCH rounds on the approved list?  

And don't say it's because gel testing is invalid.  We're well past that.

I would actually like to know since for some, it's performed well in testing and it's an interesting round.

S&W 638 2"

expansion & penetration look pretty dammed good to me.









 

 

I too would like to see this. I'm seen some gel testing done on youtube, but no official testing.


JJREA, I have a box of the Remington HTPs I bought at Bass Pro, but you can also order them from SGAmmo.


Out of my 2.5 inch Model 19, recoil is very light and I can't seem to stack enough bare water jugs to catch one, so I'm inclined to say they aren't expanding, even in bare water, from a 2.5 inch barrel.

That stinks.  Is it the SWCHP +p 158 grain?  Mr. Camp says the remington bullet was the softest out of the big three and seemed to expand better.  

I contacted Hornady and asked them two questions.  What's the difference between the XTP 125 grain brown box ammo and the same bullet in the American Gunner box, which is cheaper.  And I also asked them if they tested that load in ballistic gelatin and this is what I got in response:

Mr. Rea,



Thank you for contacting us.  These two offerings will offer similar performance as they utilize the same bullet loaded to the same velocity specification.  The American Gunner offerings are typically available at a lower price because they are loaded in higher volume than the Custom offerings.  38 caliber XTP bullets are typically  expansion tested here at velocities in line with 357 Magnum loadings, however you may find specific data for the 38 Special loadings by checking YouTube.  The XTP bullets typically penetrate very well.  Expansion will vary based on impact velocity, average weight retention is around 85%.  Thank you



So apparently they're sticking a bullet designed for .357 velocities and calling it a day.  I like that it tends to penetrate deeply and might open a little, but obviously .38 pressure is going to hinder performance.  I wonder why they don't even bother to make it in +p?


In my quest for looking at what load I want to carry, I'm coming to the conclusion that I personally might like just a vanilla 158 grain SWC load.  I know it wouldn't expand, but so many of them don't that much anyways.  And then the ones that do, the penetration gets a little short.  Even the Gold Dot's go JUST beyond 12", but not a whole lot.  For me in the winter, this makes me a bit nervous.  I could mix some gold dots with some swc's maybe. Basically a "Keith" load seems like a good deal.  IMHO.  Which I think is kind of a Plus p load too.  Although I still have to see if I'm man enough to fire plus p out of my 442, much less a 158 grain plus P.  It would probably be fine in my 19 though.  

Although the SWCHP's seems perfectly acceptable too.  Because even if they don't expand it will still act like a SWC.  Although the edges on most true SWC's seem a bit sharper than the SWCHP's.  Whether that makes a difference or not, I don't know.

Gold dots.  

147gr HST

For my S&W 442 its 125 grain hollow points from underwood ammo in 38 spl.

At it's rated velocities, it expands pretty consistently.  The XTP was one of the first designs that met the FBI 12" penetration and 1.5X  expansion criteria and it's a good choice in a +P .38 or in a .357 Mag, particularly if you're leaning toward more penetration.   The 1.5x expansion is less than the 1.6X-1.65X expansion that some of the newer hollow points will demonstrate, but that extra expansion comes at the expense of penetration and in a marginal caliber like a .38 Special out of a 2" revolver, you'll want to stay with a less aggressive bullet.    

My preference in a 4" or 2" .38 +P revolver is the 125 gr XTP.  The recoil is a bit less in a 2" .38 and the higher velocity of a 125 gr bullet helps the expansion a bit.

Hornady lists the effective expansion range for the 125 gr XTP as being 800 fps to 1,600 fps, which covers both +P .38 and .357 mag velocities.   A +P load will deliver about 1050-1100 fps in a 4" .38, putting you comfortably over the floor.   In a 2" .38 however you'll lose around 175 fps, dropping you down to the 875 fps range with the same +P load.  That makes a standard pressure load a non starter in my book in a 2" .38.

On the other hand, even in a standard pressure load in a 2" .38 I'd take a 125 gr XTP over an FMJ.  After all, even if it fails to expand, worst case it still gives you better than FMJ performance given that the unexpanded point will still function as a meplat.

With that said, I use lead semi-wadcutters and large meplat lead round nose bullets in my standard pressure .38 loads - I just don't rely on them for self defense.

 

I didn't see a +p load from hornady.  Does another company use that 125 grain xtp bullet and +p pressure?  I went on Black Hills site the other day and I don't recall if I learned anything.  I know they use hornady bullets for some of their .223 ammo.

JJREA, I've been marinating on what I've seen and I must admit I'm seriously considering just loading my own cast LSWCs (a true 175 grain Keith bullet) to +P levels and carrying them. I'm well aware of the damage possible with a sharp-shouldered SWC, and I do think it's an option.



Option 2 may be to pull the Remington LSWC-HP bullets and load them a bit hotter. Of course, this is an option for me since I'm using a .357 instead of a .38. What little I've been able to find indicates that Remington, for some reason, seems to have started producing those bullets slightly harder, dating from about the time they they were renamed and given new packaging. I cannot say the reason for such an act, but they definitely don't seem to expand as well as the older versions of the same bullet. Perhaps a low-level .357 load and/or a powder designed to maximize efficiency in a short barrel is the way to go with them.

I have both Gold Dots and Buffalo Bore
my preference is 158 gr lead hollowpoints

Ugh, that really sucks (about the remington).  It's a moving target I guess.  Because that load was Mr. Camp's recommendation, but I guess good things can't last forever.  My issue with any of it is that I still gotta go try some +p's at the range because my fear is I'll get a flinch from +p's in the 442.  I was doing my best not to show signs of it at my last range session using just wadcutters and fmj range stuff.  I did pretty well, but I'm not sure I'm good enough to NOT get one shooting +p's.  So I wish there was a standard pressure load I'd feel comfortable with.  Now in my 19 +p is probably not going to be an issue.

In fact I contacted Speer and asked them if the short barreled 135 gold dot loads will still perform properly from a 6" barrel but I haven't heard back from them yet.  One guy over on 1911forum said the speer book shows that they are two different bullets.  I think the powder is different too, for low flash in short barrels, but the bullet might open up quicker.  But it's bonded so you'd think it'd be OK.  

Then another monkey wrench in my plan was I was under the assumption that the corbon 110 dpx load was standard pressure.  And where I ordered them, the website didn't show +p.  But when I got them, they were +p.  So......  I'm kind of like, grrrrrrrr.....  Maybe they don't make them in standard pressure.  I have no clue.  I think Speer makes the 135 grain Gold dots in standard pressure though.  And that would probably work for the 19, but not sure about the 442.

Anyways....  I didn't realize that the Keith load was a 175 grain bullet.  Yeah, that would probably really penetrate and if in fact the sharp corners are a benefit, which it has been said, than that would seem like a really good load.  Or a guy could get the buffalo bore loading in it (158 grain).  I know ultramax makes one and on midway there is a company called grizzly making that load too.  I tried to ask around about them but heard nothing in the ammo forum.  I do realize the 158's would be different than the true Keith load, but the closest thing one could buy.  

So the search continues.  I have some winchester 130 fmj that have like a flat point.  But it's still not a sharp corner like on a SWC.  I wondered if it might not be a hair better than a round FMJ or RLN.

I think what I might do is try to get my hands on some of the XTP 158 grain.  If I had to stick with the XTP because it's standard pressure, I wonder if the 158 grain would be better.  Probably either the 125 or 158 xtp would do much better in the 6" barrel but not sure if there is any benefit of one over the other in the 442.  

This is the response I just got from the speer guy about using the 135 +p short barreled round in a 6" gun:


James: my opinion is that ~ 4" is MAX for the SB product, with barrel/velocity added the bullet will over-expand and over-penetrate.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Sr. Technical Coordinator
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer Bullets & Ammunition
(800) 379-1732


I messaged him back and said that's not something you hear about every day.  Over expansion AND over penetration.  OK.  But either way is it seems it probably hasn't been tested to find out.  Seeins how he said "opinion".  

I suspect he meant 'over-expand and under-penetrate'.

So the cliff notes to the thread indicate there are as many different loads being used as there are peole who have responded. I can guarantee that no one here will volunteer to be shot by any of these rounds. Stick to any reputable manufacturer with a self defense load somewhere in the normal bullet weight category and practice with it.

I hear ya.  I personally am more comfortable with a load that displays a tenancy to penetrate deeper than 12-13" though.   Although I'm sure if I stuck with the two approved loads that can't be a bad thing either.  But I'm probably going to settle on a standard pressure load.  Like Hornady's XTP.

corbon is claiming they get extra penetration with the extra velocity of a longer barrel.  I got an email today.  That's good to know.  

So that load could work in a short barrel and long barreled gun.  I'm not sure I'm real comfy about the lighter weight bullet.   But since it's all copper, I guess it might hold up well.  

I wonder how they do after glass or barriers.

I'm assuming there isn't any concerns with the lighter bullets in a model 19 with the forcing cone on the barrel in .38 and .38 +p pressure.  Just .357's, right?

Possibly, unless "over-expansion" means the petals shearing off or peeling so far back that they lay alongside the shank, and it just plows ahead like a wadcutter.

He did clarify today and it seems he meant OVERpenetrate.  To me that's not really a bad thing. So I suppose I'd be fine with them in the 19.

 

So whether he said it or not, he DOES mean that the petals fold back and act as a wadcutter.


Sounds about like my Experience with the XTP, and why I don't use them for SD.

That sounds about like the size of it.

I carry the Gold Dot HP loads in my 442.