User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 4:05:07 PM EDT
[#1]
I don't think so. I was recently given a Ruger service six as a gift. I actually like it, very good shooting gun.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 4:08:53 PM EDT
[#2]
In the situations I have experienced so far, a revolver has been plenty. I hope it stays that way.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 4:13:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Against bear and things with claws, sure.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 4:14:50 PM EDT
[#4]
My daily off duty carry right now.
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 5:02:12 PM EDT
[#5]
I sure hope it's not obsolete since my EDC is a 38-2 in a pocket holster. I think anyone who says they are obsolete doesn't know how to shoot one.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 5:04:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Well written. Good pics. I really like that holster.
Do you have anything against HKS speedloaders? I carry (2) 6 rounders in my right front pocket and don't feel like they're in the way. And I admittedly keep 2 rings of keys in there also. That's probably not the ideal set up but my left pocket is full with my wallet a small knife and hand sanitizer. LOL. I can't wear a wallet in my back pocket, just messes my back up sitting awkwardly in a chair. I sometimes only carry one though. But mostly two. And I haven't carried for years and years, but I've never had the rounds pop out. Not once. Not saying it can't happen though. Just hasn't happened to me yet. But they are the least bulky ones, as far as I can tell. Besides speed strips. I need to practice with those but they are definitely slower. Anyways.... I wouldn't have thought some good .38 or +p's wouldn't really be cheating and might've allowed you to shoot faster. Although there's no denying that a .357 is probably more effective. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 5:12:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Thank you Sir!
HKS? Doing the twist is for Chubby Checker, not speedloaders. I ran full magnum loads to work on recoil control in addition to trigger control and sight alignment. The longer magnum casings also forced me to work harder on my reloads and positive ejection of my empties. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 6:34:38 PM EDT
[#8]
If it works for you... it works!
Rarely a citizen on the street has to overcome a intermediate objective, while over running the main objective, to occupy the limit of advance. That is why infantry guys carry more than just a couple of magazines. The revolver should be just fine. Usually a chance contact with a criminal only needs two well placed shots (the others seem to get the idea to scatter). |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 7:00:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Nice revolver OP. You should put the compact grips on it for carry.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 7:00:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Against bear and things with claws, sure. came to post this. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 7:11:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice revolver OP. You should put the compact grips on it for carry. Those are Lett Compacts. Or do you mean Pachmayr Compacs? I have a set of those somewhere too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 7:30:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are Lett Compacts. Or do you mean Pachmayr Compacs? I have a set of those somewhere too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nice revolver OP. You should put the compact grips on it for carry. Those are Lett Compacts. Or do you mean Pachmayr Compacs? I have a set of those somewhere too. Disregard. I thought they were full size, camera angle I suppose. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 8:28:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Muzzle loaders aren't totally obsolete for self defense. In the Czech Republic no lisence or permit is required for double barreled muzzle loaders. If I were to fly in and pick up a brace of those double barrels I wouldn't feel unarmed.
I EDC a j frame. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 8:31:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Great article Hizzie, I really enjoyed the read
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 8:31:52 PM EDT
[#15]
I hope not - if so, I'm doing it wrong. I feel perfectly 'prepared' when I have the 581 or the .41 Magnum on my hip. Of course a speed strip is in my pocket.
I am not afraid to carry the G21, but with 13 round magazines, I don't usually carry an extra magazine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 8:36:01 PM EDT
[#16]
I don't think it's obsolete. If you want to be prepared for multiple threats you might be a little less prepared than someone with a modern semi auto. that argument can be employed/abused infinitely to the point of saying you need to wear full body armor and carry your AR-15 around in a backpack to be prepared. I guess it depends on your skills and level of comfort/ perceived threat.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 8:55:00 PM EDT
[#17]
First up good article I enjoyed reading it. I am going to play devil's advocate a bit here though. I am a big fan of revolvers, hunt with them, compete with them, even carry one for CCW but I think they are obsolete as hardware for self-defense. Can they be effectively used for self defense? Sure, but are they absolutely obsolete hardware. They no longer offer any advantage over a semi-auto. At one point in time they where king of the self-defense hill, but if you look at the features a revolver offers someone compared to available semi-autos they no longer have any meaningful hardware advantage over a semi-auto. Being obsolete does not mean they can't be used effective just means there have been replaced by something better.
For the same size and less weight compared to your 3" GP100 with 6rds someone can carry a Glock 17 or similar handgun with 17rds of 9mm. The magazine fed handgun carries more rounds of equally effective self-defense caliber and facilitates a faster, more reliable and less fumble prone reload. The revolvers, one notable advantage, reliability, has pretty much evaporated as new semi-auto handguns can boast reliability numbers close enough to revolvers that the semi-auto's other advantages make reliability a non-issue. Trigger pull. Even a stock Glock's trigger pull is no worst and in many ways better than a good double action revolver trigger pull. Other semi-autos can boast much better triggers out of the box. Nearly all of them can be made to have trigger better than the best gunsmithed double action revolver trigger Training, for the same about of training/practice you will gain more proficiency with a semi-auto than with a revolver. Revolvers simply take more focus and training to shoot them as well, as quickly and reload them as reliably as compared to a semi-auto. IMHO if you choose to carry a revolver you are putting yourself at a hardware disadvantage. That said the guy that trains, practices and is proficient with a snub nose revolver is far better off than someone with the the best semi-auto that does not train/practice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 8:59:35 PM EDT
[#18]
I guess if the Glock made my revolvers obsolete then the HK45 made the 1911 obsolete.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 9:00:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Rather have a J-frame in my back pocket, than a .380 or ultra-compact 9mm.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 10:31:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hope not - if so, I'm doing it wrong. I feel perfectly 'prepared' when I have the 581 or the .41 Magnum on my hip. Of course a speed strip is in my pocket. I am not afraid to carry the G21, but with 13 round magazines, I don't usually carry an extra magazine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 10:44:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, the .41 Magnum.... the best N-Frame Service Cartridge. The original police load was the best. I wish I could get a L-Frame built in it or a GP100. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I hope not - if so, I'm doing it wrong. I feel perfectly 'prepared' when I have the 581 or the .41 Magnum on my hip. Of course a speed strip is in my pocket. I am not afraid to carry the G21, but with 13 round magazines, I don't usually carry an extra magazine. Check out Bowen Classic Arms. I'm sure they could make whatever you desire. http://bowenclassicarms.com/index.html |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 10:47:05 PM EDT
[#22]
No, it's not. And I only had to type this out because "No" is too short of a response for the forum to accept.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 10:54:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Nice article OP. I went to the academy in the mid eighties with a 686, carried that for 3 years until we transitioned to the 1911. I also carried a model 60 (no dash) on my ankle for 20 years.
I still carry a wheel gun a lot, no stove pipes or double feeds and if you practice enough, reload quickly. I believe the "boat anchor" will always be relevant in the right hands. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 11:01:29 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess if the Glock made my revolvers obsolete then the HK45 made the 1911 obsolete.
Yep, the 1911 is only bit less obsolete than the revolver. Great trigger, magazine feed but it start going down hill from there, its heavy, low capacity, expensive... I fairly routinely win Production division at my local USPSA club match (usually more than 20 shooters in the division) using a 627 revolver, that is a lot of fun and stokes my ego nicely, doesn't change the fact that I would probably win more often and by larger margins if I was using a semi-auto. The revolver is obsolete hardware/tech, doesn't mean it can't be effective if the shooter understand its limitation and goes the extra mile to compensate for the limitation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 1:52:45 AM EDT
[#25]
I was thinking about disagreeing with you MCB but when I looked up the actual meaning of "obsolete", I have to say I agree with you.
adjective 1. no longer in general use; fallen into disuse: an obsolete expression. 2. of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date: an obsolete battleship. 3. (of a linguistic form) no longer in use, especially, out of use for at least the past century. Compare archaic. The rant I have gone on several times around here is sometimes when a good weapon has replaced an older weapon system or whatever, people start acting like the old one is completely useless. And for some reason won't do the job it had been doing up until that point, because the newer one might be better. For example there have been discussions on here and probably other places that because the M4 is probably a really good choice for CQB, and replaced the HK MP5 in many cases, some seem to think the MP5 all of a sudden is a tird and is somehow rendered awful because an M4 might be a better CQB rifle. Well that's just dumb. Or even more to the point that somehow the M4 has rendered the M16 completely useless because it's shorter. Well what in the heck did they think all of those guys that carried those older weapons did in combat? They all fell over dead because the M4 hadn't been invented yet? Somehow if you were defending your home and hearth with a Sten or an M-1 Carbine that there's no way you're gonna make it. Please. If it goes bang, is powerful enough to take someone down, and you can hit your target it with it, it doesn't matter if it is the latest and greatest thing or not. At least that's how I see it. But I don't carry a gun for a living, so... I probably should listen to the guys that do. But that's the thing. There are plenty of guys out there who have BTDT that don't necessarily get all hung up on the next latest and greatest weapon system to solve a problem. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 7:38:32 AM EDT
[#26]
I'm happy so many people enjoyed the article. All the debate and conversation this article started has been great. Thanks for the support guys.
Regarding obsolete. LE started the transition from revolvers to semi autos in the 80's so we are only at 30 years and counting which is a bit shy of a century. My last agency still required our armed security officers to carry 38 special revolvers. Back in Ohio one local agency still issued 357 magnums. Many armored car services still issue wheelguns. In my current AO it isn't uncommon to see a wheelgun in the local LEOs holster. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 9:54:14 AM EDT
[#27]
This is shooting as fast as I could get a front sight back on target. With the revolver the trigger was pulled as fast I can do so physically with the idea to land the sight back on target as the trigger broke.
20140815_134250_LLS by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr It was my first time shooting these 45acp's back to back. The 1911 had a slightly higher ROF. Either one would serve well. Bullseye shooters have mocked my effort above...but, no...that's not what I was doing here. I can shoot well in slow fire mode at distance, but lately focusing on quick shots at SD distances seems more practical. As I can shoot a J frame revolver as well as anything I own, I'll soon be carrying a 357 snubby IWB with another in "NY reload" mode. The above are regular carry pieces but I don't always feel like dressing around them. I had once rid myself of all the revolvers. That was a mistake. Going with 357 ammo was probably a little much for an SD course, but I admire your efforts. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 11:47:14 AM EDT
[#28]
Back over the years since I started shooting USPSA in 2005 and Revolver Division early in 2006 I don't think I have ever beaten myself in a total match score with a revolver vs a semi-auto. I occasionally have a stage or two that I shoot better with the revolver than the semi-auto but I don't think I have ever managed a match win with myself shooting a revolver vs myself with a semi-auto. And this would be comparing to a semi-auto that has an artificial capacity limited to 10 rounds as I only compete in Revolver, Limited-10 and Production. (hopefully Limited this coming season). The revolver is just slower on double-tap splits, and reloads and requires more of those slow reloads.
It would be interesting right now to pick up a semi-auto and try again. I have shot nothing but revolvers for the past year and half (Shot USPSA Revolver Nationals this year). Given my current skill levelst I might manage a match win with a revolver vs semi-auto now but that skill advantage would not last more than a match or two if I started shooting both revolver and semi-auto the same amount again. The semi-auto gun handling skills would return quickly and the equipment advantage would become evident again. This was one of the last matches I shot before I switch over to all revolvers (625 and 627) in preparation for the nationals. I shot my S&W Model 610 40S&W (Major) Revolver against my XD-45ACP Tactical in Production (Minor) using bunny-fart 45 loads. Even with the revolver receiving a scoring bonus for Major Power Factor, revolver only won one of four stages. The total match score for the revolvers was 87.5% of the semi-auto's score. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NMzJ-HXSy4&list=UU_EatTJP6angboca0tKu-AQ |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 3:04:41 PM EDT
[#29]
I think you meant Half a century in your other post. 30 years is 70 years shy of a century.
I remember when I lived on the "East Side" (that's like saying college campus and mixed ethnicity and sometimes not so great as far as drugs and alcohol and crime goes) of Milwaukee a little bit after 1990 (when I graduated) I was in a corner store that had been robbed a bit before I got in there and the uniformed officers came in with their guns out. The first guy had a stainless revolver that for some reason was ominous looking to me. I guess it would've been concerning if it was any kind of gun because I didn't know what that heck was going on. But he had it pointed straight in the air, it was stainless. I didn't know much about guns then, so I can't remember if it had the underlug or not. 4" barrel probably. Maybe a 64 or 686 or something. Anyways... That was early 90's and that was this guys duty weapon. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 5:10:14 PM EDT
[#30]
While it wouldn't be my first choice, I wouldn't feel naked carrying a GP100 .357 Magnum.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 5:36:00 PM EDT
[#31]
Not in my world. Most the time I'm either carrying a 3 inch SP 101 or a 4 inch 686. Frequently during the winter I even carry a 6 inch 686 in a vertical shoulder rig. Don't feel under gunned or un protected in any way. Also own many 1911's and even more Glocks and even though I REALLY love them I very seldom carry one of them. Revolvers will never go away. Dependability, accuracy, powerful ammo and shot placement is what a good revolver thrives on.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 8:42:35 PM EDT
[#32]
.44 Magnum says no.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 8:44:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Check out Bowen Classic Arms. I'm sure they could make whatever you desire. http://bowenclassicarms.com/index.html Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I hope not - if so, I'm doing it wrong. I feel perfectly 'prepared' when I have the 581 or the .41 Magnum on my hip. Of course a speed strip is in my pocket. I am not afraid to carry the G21, but with 13 round magazines, I don't usually carry an extra magazine. Check out Bowen Classic Arms. I'm sure they could make whatever you desire. http://bowenclassicarms.com/index.html Thanks.... you just ruined an evening for me. Now I'll be seeing what I want that I can't afford.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 8:48:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Best combat revolver in the world is a 3 inch round butt fixed sight in .357 Magnum loaded with .38 Special +P+ or .357 Magnum loads.
 Say hello to the Smith & Wesson Model 13. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2014 10:49:41 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks.... you just ruined an evening for me. Now I'll be seeing what I want that I can't afford. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I hope not - if so, I'm doing it wrong. I feel perfectly 'prepared' when I have the 581 or the .41 Magnum on my hip. Of course a speed strip is in my pocket. I am not afraid to carry the G21, but with 13 round magazines, I don't usually carry an extra magazine. Check out Bowen Classic Arms. I'm sure they could make whatever you desire. http://bowenclassicarms.com/index.html Thanks.... you just ruined an evening for me. Now I'll be seeing what I want that I can't afford. Makes 2 of us - I'll just sit here and dream...while eating my plantains....... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2014 10:08:14 AM EDT
[#36]
I have several wheel guns. What I love most about the 357 magnum is the versatility of the round. I used to reload 10mm and .45. I am going to start reloading 357 and 38 soon. I can make some powerful loadings for the 28-2. Best part? I don't have to worry about which recoil spring to use. The simplicity and the raw power are terrific. Right now I am trying to decide on how to carry the 28-2, as my hip does NOT like any weapon on it. I was carrying a glock 19 AIWB in an INCOG, but I want to carry the 28-2 instead, perhaps AIWB, as well. I need a crossdraw AIWB holster for it. I also carry a 342ti as a BUG. I don't fell undergunned at all with this setup. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2014 12:17:36 PM EDT
[#37]
Best thing I've always liked about revolvers is how 'reload friendly' they are, no chasing your brass, no dented/damaged brass, not picky with cast slugs or case length. I've still got an old early '60s S&W mod.49 snubnose .38, although it's not my first choice for carry I consider 5 rounds of .38 spl suitable for self defense. And just recently picked up a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt/45acp, really nice gun for the money. The day revolvers are declared 'obsolete' please let me know so I can rush down to my closest gun shop and fish that S&W mod.29 I've had my eye on out of their dumpster.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2014 1:05:12 PM EDT
[#38]
Good article. It certainly proves that, as long as you know what you are doing, you can usually run a revolver as well as most can run an auto.
A few years ago, I was running either a S&W M649 (pre-lock .357 version) or an SP101 for backup and off duty at my PD job. I was perfectly happy with this and was looking for a 3" M65 for both the extra round and the slightly larger size making the gun shoot a little easier. I could generally run the revolvers as well or better than the rest ran their auto backup.off duty guns. I was a little concerned about the 5 shot capacity, but not overly so. I felt very well protected with them. Then we experienced massive budget cuts and it was mandated that we were on call 24/7 in case the on duty Officer needed help. Where before we ran at least 2 guys on duty at any time, now we were running 1 guy on duty the vast majority of the time, for a small city of about 5000. When this change came about, I finally bit the bullet and started carrying an auto. I did this because, while a 5 shot revolver may well work just fine for strictly defensive use against 1 or 2 perps, if I needed to run after an active shooter, I want more than 5 shots before an admittedly clumsy reload. I started carrying my G26 with 2 G17 or G19 mags for reloads (an advantage is that if needed, I could put the longer mags in the G26 and have a gun that I shot every bit as well as the longer guns at range). Now, because the G26 is a thick, chunky beast, I am carrying a S&W Shield in 9mm with 2 8 rd mags as reloads, simply because it is so much thinner and easier to conceal. If our budget ever goes back up and our policy ever changes back and I go back to strictly defensive use (not on call 24/7), I may well break the snubbies back out. There is just something about shooting a good revolver! Bub75 |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2014 1:11:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best thing I've always liked about revolvers is how 'reload friendly' they are, no chasing your brass, no dented/damaged brass, not picky with cast slugs or case length. I've still got an old early '60s S&W mod.49 snubnose .38, although it's not my first choice for carry I consider 5 rounds of .38 spl suitable for self defense. And just recently picked up a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt/45acp, really nice gun for the money. The day revolvers are declared 'obsolete' please let me know so I can rush down to my closest gun shop and fish that S&W mod.29 I've had my eye on out of their dumpster. It is nice getting all your brass back. Mine is usually in little piles of 6 or 8. I am using Startline brass because I get it back so I don't mind the expense. As for bullets though in my experience I have found bullet shape to be more critical to my revolver function than my semi-autos from a competitive shooting point of view. My semi-autos have always feed pretty much any bullet shape well. I used a lot of TC and RSFP and RN bullets in my competition semi-autos and HP have always feed reliably in my semi-auto carry gun. On the other hand my revolvers have to be fed round nose bullets, preferably "pointy" round noses to get them to feed moonclip or speed loaders fast and reliably. When I got my 627 in late 2013 the only 38 Special I had on hand to shoot my first USPSA match with where some JHP and some LSWC. What a nightmare trying to get 8-rounds clipped into a moonclip to drop into a cylinder without something getting caught on a corner/edge. Round nose bullets, and a bit of charge hole chamfering makes this much much faster, smoother and reliable. That is fine for competition but with a revolver for self-defense you want to use HP or possibly SWC and when the adrenaline is flowing those blunt bullet shapes would rather dance on the cylinder face than go into the charge holes. And IMHO the revolver is obsolete or at best rapidly becoming obsolete from a person to person self-defense point of view. They simply offer nothing that a semi-auto can't do equal or better in the context of person to person self-defense. Revolver still can be effective in self-defense just are no longer on the cutting edge of technology in the field, thus becoming obsolete. They still have much to offer a shooter in hunting and dangerous game self-defense but that was not what the OP was asking. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2014 2:35:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is nice getting all your brass back. Mine is usually in little piles of 6 or 8. I am using Startline brass because I get it back so I don't mind the expense. As for bullets though in my experience I have found bullet shape to be more critical to my revolver function than my semi-autos from a competitive shooting point of view. My semi-autos have always feed pretty much any bullet shape well. I used a lot of TC and RSFP and RN bullets in my competition semi-autos and HP have always feed reliably in my semi-auto carry gun. On the other hand my revolvers have to be fed round nose bullets, preferably "pointy" round noses to get them to feed moonclip or speed loaders fast and reliably. When I got my 627 in late 2013 the only 38 Special I had on hand to shoot my first USPSA match with where some JHP and some LSWC. What a nightmare trying to get 8-rounds clipped into a moonclip to drop into a cylinder without something getting caught on a corner/edge. Round nose bullets, and a bit of charge hole chamfering makes this much much faster, smoother and reliable. That is fine for competition but with a revolver for self-defense you want to use HP or possibly SWC and when the adrenaline is flowing those blunt bullet shapes would rather dance on the cylinder face than go into the charge holes. And IMHO the revolver is obsolete or at best rapidly becoming obsolete from a person to person self-defense point of view. They simply offer nothing that a semi-auto can't do equal or better in the context of person to person self-defense. Revolver still can be effective in self-defense just are no longer on the cutting edge of technology in the field, thus becoming obsolete. They still have much to offer a shooter in hunting and dangerous game self-defense but that was not what the OP was asking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Best thing I've always liked about revolvers is how 'reload friendly' they are, no chasing your brass, no dented/damaged brass, not picky with cast slugs or case length. I've still got an old early '60s S&W mod.49 snubnose .38, although it's not my first choice for carry I consider 5 rounds of .38 spl suitable for self defense. And just recently picked up a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt/45acp, really nice gun for the money. The day revolvers are declared 'obsolete' please let me know so I can rush down to my closest gun shop and fish that S&W mod.29 I've had my eye on out of their dumpster. It is nice getting all your brass back. Mine is usually in little piles of 6 or 8. I am using Startline brass because I get it back so I don't mind the expense. As for bullets though in my experience I have found bullet shape to be more critical to my revolver function than my semi-autos from a competitive shooting point of view. My semi-autos have always feed pretty much any bullet shape well. I used a lot of TC and RSFP and RN bullets in my competition semi-autos and HP have always feed reliably in my semi-auto carry gun. On the other hand my revolvers have to be fed round nose bullets, preferably "pointy" round noses to get them to feed moonclip or speed loaders fast and reliably. When I got my 627 in late 2013 the only 38 Special I had on hand to shoot my first USPSA match with where some JHP and some LSWC. What a nightmare trying to get 8-rounds clipped into a moonclip to drop into a cylinder without something getting caught on a corner/edge. Round nose bullets, and a bit of charge hole chamfering makes this much much faster, smoother and reliable. That is fine for competition but with a revolver for self-defense you want to use HP or possibly SWC and when the adrenaline is flowing those blunt bullet shapes would rather dance on the cylinder face than go into the charge holes. And IMHO the revolver is obsolete or at best rapidly becoming obsolete from a person to person self-defense point of view. They simply offer nothing that a semi-auto can't do equal or better in the context of person to person self-defense. Revolver still can be effective in self-defense just are no longer on the cutting edge of technology in the field, thus becoming obsolete. They still have much to offer a shooter in hunting and dangerous game self-defense but that was not what the OP was asking. While that was not in the original question can we discount that? So you like your fancy pants bottom feeder for anti personnel duties but enjoy spending time in the outdoors where you have to worry about 4 legged predators. Do you now try to maintain proficiency with two vastly different platforms? Wouldnt simply trading your medium frame 38/357 loaded with HPs for a large frame 44/45 loaded with heavy hardcast be more natural and leave you with a higher probability of performing better under stress? Just a thought. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2014 2:55:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While that was not in the original question can we discount that? So you like your fancy pants bottom feeder for anti personnel duties but enjoy spending time in the outdoors where you have to worry about 4 legged predators. Do you now try to maintain proficiency with two vastly different platforms? Wouldnt simply trading your medium frame 38/357 loaded with HPs for a large frame 44/45 loaded with heavy hardcast be more natural and leave you with a higher probability of performing better under stress? Just a thought. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Best thing I've always liked about revolvers is how 'reload friendly' they are, no chasing your brass, no dented/damaged brass, not picky with cast slugs or case length. I've still got an old early '60s S&W mod.49 snubnose .38, although it's not my first choice for carry I consider 5 rounds of .38 spl suitable for self defense. And just recently picked up a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt/45acp, really nice gun for the money. The day revolvers are declared 'obsolete' please let me know so I can rush down to my closest gun shop and fish that S&W mod.29 I've had my eye on out of their dumpster. It is nice getting all your brass back. Mine is usually in little piles of 6 or 8. I am using Startline brass because I get it back so I don't mind the expense. As for bullets though in my experience I have found bullet shape to be more critical to my revolver function than my semi-autos from a competitive shooting point of view. My semi-autos have always feed pretty much any bullet shape well. I used a lot of TC and RSFP and RN bullets in my competition semi-autos and HP have always feed reliably in my semi-auto carry gun. On the other hand my revolvers have to be fed round nose bullets, preferably "pointy" round noses to get them to feed moonclip or speed loaders fast and reliably. When I got my 627 in late 2013 the only 38 Special I had on hand to shoot my first USPSA match with where some JHP and some LSWC. What a nightmare trying to get 8-rounds clipped into a moonclip to drop into a cylinder without something getting caught on a corner/edge. Round nose bullets, and a bit of charge hole chamfering makes this much much faster, smoother and reliable. That is fine for competition but with a revolver for self-defense you want to use HP or possibly SWC and when the adrenaline is flowing those blunt bullet shapes would rather dance on the cylinder face than go into the charge holes. And IMHO the revolver is obsolete or at best rapidly becoming obsolete from a person to person self-defense point of view. They simply offer nothing that a semi-auto can't do equal or better in the context of person to person self-defense. Revolver still can be effective in self-defense just are no longer on the cutting edge of technology in the field, thus becoming obsolete. They still have much to offer a shooter in hunting and dangerous game self-defense but that was not what the OP was asking. While that was not in the original question can we discount that? So you like your fancy pants bottom feeder for anti personnel duties but enjoy spending time in the outdoors where you have to worry about 4 legged predators. Do you now try to maintain proficiency with two vastly different platforms? Wouldnt simply trading your medium frame 38/357 loaded with HPs for a large frame 44/45 loaded with heavy hardcast be more natural and leave you with a higher probability of performing better under stress? Just a thought. At present I carry a revolver for social self-defense. I personally believe that it's, "the Indian and not the arrow" that really matters. I have been shooting a revolver in competition almost exclusively for over a year and half. Because of that I switched my carry gun to a J-frame cut for moonclips. When I was shooting my XD-40 Tactical a lot in competition my carry gun was an XD-40 Sub-Compact. I figure competition has built up and is maintaining a particular set of gun handling skill in competition; I want my carry gun to take advantage of those skill as much as possible. This become somewhat more difficult when we think about dangerous game defense as there are very few semi-auto handgun that can deliver the power that the big revolves can deliver. In that case equipment may trump the benefits of what I am shooting a lot at the moment. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 6:30:56 AM EDT
[#42]
My most common carry gun is a SW640.
Now my Glock 19 is a better self defense gun - problem is that it's bigger, and too big for pocket carry for me. The really small Glocks like the 26 are too small for me as well. So, I end up carrying the 640 in a front pocket holster about 95% of the time I go out. I can wear it with shorts, or dress pants, and with ever a long sleeve shirt untucked it disapears with a belt holster. Business wise, it's a 357 mag, chunking a 125 grain hollow point at 1000+ FPS, front night sight, and a Crimson Trace laser grip to both help me aim and disuade the lit party from doing any more of whatever it is that got them lit up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 12:29:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best combat revolver in the world is a 3 inch round butt fixed sight in .357 Magnum loaded with .38 Special +P+ or .357 Magnum loads. http://i.imgur.com/TtxLhl8.jpg Say hello to the Smith & Wesson Model 13. Hard to argue with that. I'd go one step further and say that possibly best defensive handgun (rather than just revolver) for a non-shooter may well be the same thing. When I was selling guns, I often tried to steer those folks who were non-shooters and just wanting a nightstand gun, toward a 3" revolver in either .357 or .38spl. We didn't have all the uber-cool options available nowadays (ie, Kahr didn't exist, etc), but still I believe a 3" medium revolver - sensibly loaded - is a darn good bedroom or purse gun. Heck, my wife's bedroom gun to this day is a 4" revolver loaded with .38 +P's. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 1:10:27 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hard to argue with that. I'd go one step further and say that possibly best defensive handgun (rather than just revolver) for a non-shooter may well be the same thing. When I was selling guns, I often tried to steer those folks who were non-shooters and just wanting a nightstand gun, toward a 3" revolver in either .357 or .38spl. We didn't have all the uber-cool options available nowadays (ie, Kahr didn't exist, etc), but still I believe a 3" medium revolver - sensibly loaded - is a darn good bedroom or purse gun. Heck, my wife's bedroom gun to this day is a 4" revolver loaded with .38 +P's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Best combat revolver in the world is a 3 inch round butt fixed sight in .357 Magnum loaded with .38 Special +P+ or .357 Magnum loads. http://i.imgur.com/TtxLhl8.jpg Say hello to the Smith & Wesson Model 13. Hard to argue with that. I'd go one step further and say that possibly best defensive handgun (rather than just revolver) for a non-shooter may well be the same thing. When I was selling guns, I often tried to steer those folks who were non-shooters and just wanting a nightstand gun, toward a 3" revolver in either .357 or .38spl. We didn't have all the uber-cool options available nowadays (ie, Kahr didn't exist, etc), but still I believe a 3" medium revolver - sensibly loaded - is a darn good bedroom or purse gun. Heck, my wife's bedroom gun to this day is a 4" revolver loaded with .38 +P's. Why would you punish a new inexperienced shooter with a revolver's heavy double action trigger pull when there are so many magazine fed handguns available for less money with better triggers out of the box and equally simple manual of arms as a revolver. You want to make it as easy as possible for a new shooter. Nothing turns off someone new to an activity then to make it harder than it has to be. Everything about shooting a revolver in a self-defense situation is harder to do than an appropriately selected semi-auto. To become equally proficient it will take more time, training, and practice using a revolver than a semi-auto. Why would you do that to newbies? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 3:17:29 PM EDT
[#45]
I think a 3" K frame in steel might be heavy enough that the DA pull isn't that huge of a deal. Some say new shooters take to a model 10 4" like duck to water. I don't really know for sure, as I'm newer to revolvers and haven't spent a lot of time giving new shooters a revolver to mess with.
However, the ONLY gun I can get my wife to fire was a revolver (Colt DS) because it felt better and was more intuitive for her than any of the autos I have. And despite it being a snubby and her having very little experience, she hit a torso target at close range. A .22 revolver would be better to start someone though. Also, my kids were shooting a Smith .22 revolver and a Security Six my friend brought a while back and they liked them just fine. I'm a little more accurate with my Colt Huntsman but that Smith .22 revolver he brought was pretty fricking easy to be accurate with. Even in DA. I forget what model it was. 4" like a 617, but older I think. I forget the model number. Personally, I think a revolver is a good way to go for new shooters. Some .38 wadcutters in that 13 would be pretty easy to manage. I'm not sure wrestling with a Glock trigger is all that much easier than a good DA trigger. Now a 1911, yeah, the trigger is going to be easier. But really, you can always have them do single action if they are really having a hard time with a revolver, if it has a hammer. If they are just wanting to hit the target for fun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 3:40:33 PM EDT
[#46]
Excellent write-up. I think that a revolver course would be a lot of fun. I may have missed it, but is the holster a special order? I didn't see a Ruger G-100 listed as option.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 4:52:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Excellent write-up. I think that a revolver course would be a lot of fun. I may have missed it, but is the holster a special order? I didn't see a Ruger G-100 listed as option. Thanks! The class was a blast but it wasn't a revolver class. I had to hang with bottom feeders. The other students were pretty damn good. I emailed JM and he gave me instructions on how to place the order. Just drop him a message. Great customer service too. Let him know you heard about him from the article. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 6:14:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
First up good article I enjoyed reading it. I am going to play devil's advocate a bit here though. I am a big fan of revolvers, hunt with them, compete with them, even carry one for CCW but I think they are obsolete as hardware for self-defense. Can they be effectively used for self defense? Sure, but are they absolutely obsolete hardware. They no longer offer any advantage over a semi-auto. At one point in time they where king of the self-defense hill, but if you look at the features a revolver offers someone compared to available semi-autos they no longer have any meaningful hardware advantage over a semi-auto. Being obsolete does not mean they can't be used effective just means there have been replaced by something better. For the same size and less weight compared to your 3" GP100 with 6rds someone can carry a Glock 17 or similar handgun with 17rds of 9mm. The magazine fed handgun carries more rounds of equally effective self-defense caliber and facilitates a faster, more reliable and less fumble prone reload. The revolvers, one notable advantage, reliability, has pretty much evaporated as new semi-auto handguns can boast reliability numbers close enough to revolvers that the semi-auto's other advantages make reliability a non-issue. Trigger pull. Even a stock Glock's trigger pull is no worst and in many ways better than a good double action revolver trigger pull. Other semi-autos can boast much better triggers out of the box. Nearly all of them can be made to have trigger better than the best gunsmithed double action revolver trigger Training, for the same about of training/practice you will gain more proficiency with a semi-auto than with a revolver. Revolvers simply take more focus and training to shoot them as well, as quickly and reload them as reliably as compared to a semi-auto. IMHO if you choose to carry a revolver you are putting yourself at a hardware disadvantage. That said the guy that trains, practices and is proficient with a snub nose revolver is far better off than someone with the the best semi-auto that does not train/practice. All of the above is 100% true and correct. But not really relevant to the question at hand. I'm not intending to pick on or argue with any particular position, other than to point out that the context matters. In most non law enforcement, non military, self defense shoots, it's over and done with in 5 shots or less, in 5 seconds or less, at 5 yards or less. In that context a revolver is just fine for self defense use. Reloads are not an issue and differences in accuracy are moot. If there is an area where the revolver gives something up in that context, it's the comfort in firing from a retention position. Unless you're one of those misguided souls who though it was a good idea to port your concealed carry semi auto, a semi auto is less obnoxious to shoot close in than a revolver, particularly, something like a short barreled .357, and even then you're probably better off (and no worse off) with a .38 +P load. Ease of carrying I can be argued as a potential issue, but it is one that is very subjective. I like shooting a 4" .38, and I like shooting a 4" .357 with suitable grips, but a 2" the best .38 special load is no more effective round per round than a good .380 ACP hollow point load (one of the several using the 90 gr XTP or perhaps the 102 gr GS load), and the .380 will have between 6 and 8 rounds available, compared to 5 for a small frame .38 revolver, but once again it shouldn't matter in the average real world self defense shoot, so it's mostly a matter of preference. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 6:57:11 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would you punish a new inexperienced shooter with a revolver's heavy double action trigger pull Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would you punish a new inexperienced shooter with a revolver's heavy double action trigger pull A good DA revolver's trigger pull isn't necessarily heavy. Many are, but there's no need for them to be; and a $10 spring kit from wolff does wonders, especially on the small-framed guns. Quoted:...when there are so many magazine fed handguns available for less money This was the 80's & 90's. Good revolvers were sub-$300. (Of course, SKS rifles were $59 as well, and I wasn't smart enough to stock up. )
Quoted:..out of the box and equally simple manual of arms as a revolver. I don't know of a semi-auto pistol with a manual of arms as simple as a DA revolver. Even an SA revolver is substantially more complicated. The manual of arms on any semiauto is unavoidably more complex; by virtue of removable magazine, chamber loaded/unloaded status, magazine-disconnect (or not), manual safety (or not), inconsistent trigger if it's a DA/SA platform, etc. Even the simplest semiautos like Kahrs (which I have & love) are more complex & complicated than a DA revolver. Repair work is more complicated on a revolver, no argument there. Quoted:...You want to make it as easy as possible for a new shooter. Nothing turns off someone new to an activity then to make it harder than it has to be. Agree completely. I just don't see how a revolver is more complicated than a semi-auto. 
Quoted:Everything about shooting a revolver in a self-defense situation is harder to do than an appropriately selected semi-auto. To become equally proficient it will take more time, training, and practice using a revolver than a semi-auto. Why would you do that to newbies? A goblin kicks in my bedroom door. I grab my revolver, DAO semiauto, kahr, etc and pull the trigger. If my semiauto is a 1911/beretta/5900/etc, it gets much more complicated with the varying levels and conditions of 'loaded'. Again, how is "everything about shooting a revolver" harder than shooting a semiauto? Not trying to argue, just honestly not following. I started shooting ipsc semiauto competition in the 80's and ppc revolver competition in the 70's. Never had a revolver more difficult or more complicated than a semiauto. (At least not a mainstream DA revolver.) It's literally "point & shoot". |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 8:50:15 PM EDT
[#50]
For all out combat zone, big magazine rifle and a magazine fed pistol.
The revolver is nothing that I would feel unarmed or disadvantaged with around town. I have shot 4" and 6" revolvers on the range a lot. Not near as much as my auto pistols but enough that I have confidence in them. Same goes with an M1 garand. Sure it's not the M16 or M4 but I've shot it enough to know how to use it with out much thought needed. Recently I did a training course that used simunitions in force on force situations. At CQB distances my average rounds expended was 4 per engagement. Basically that's how many I got off before the professional role player felt a couple center mass hits. Not the real world of course. With that in mind I think a revolver and some speed loaders would be workable. I'd rather have 15 on tap though. A couple of .357 125's or 158 JHP's to the center mass would sure hurt though. My ideal is a 4" model 66. S&W recently came out with a new 66 fixing it's flat/weak spot on the forcing cone that would sometimes crack. They enlarged the frame height to fix that. Other than the lawyer lock I want one. I might pick one up despite the lock. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
