I see there is a surge of new ammo for 380 (specifically aimed at micro's such as the LCP). I'm asking here, because it's LCP specific (want to hear actual users who know ammo works in this pocket pistol).
Currently I'm running Critical Defense, but I see there are new options. Such as Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator (which seem so get GREAT reviews, but due to it's "odd" bullet shape, I have no idea if it functions well in the LCP), Browning came out with an "X" shaped (inner) HP which looks promising, I forget who makes them but there are also now the Polymer bullets with a shape similar to Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrators.
I'm kind of lost here. I guess I could just go with the old standby (critical defense), but as quickly as ammo is advancing, I'd like to take advantage of that especially using an already marginal caliber. Like many, I'm looking to max out the minimum.
Any help here (not just about 380, but SPECIFICALLY in the LCP)? Thank you all in advance!

I prefer the federal hydra shocks. In all the testing I have seen/read they seem to be about the best. Not to bash but critical defense is pure garbage, limited penetration and jacket separtion being the main issues.

I dont own a LCP but I do own Keltec P3AT which is the gun Ruger copied to make the LCP.

IMHO.  I just use FMJ.  Specifically S&B.  My only concern is penetration and it will get it done.

I settled in Fiottchi Xtp or American Gunner Xtp. There's some ballistic tests floating around the interweb and these two weren't bad.

Funny but I have read the same about Federal.

I like XTP bullets for pretty much any caliber.  Very good performer.

380- Buffalo Bore Cast.

Go for penetration.  There isn't enough speed for expansion.

ballistic gel test

Thanks for the info guys!

The buffalo bore solids way over penetrate. On tests on you tube ammo with hornady XTP bullets performed the best. There are several different companies that load this bullet.On the denim gelatin test they actually penetrated deep enough and had some expansion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

How many bones did the gelatin have in it?  Just to further the 380 vs 9mm vs 45 discussion.  

If there were bones the results wouldn't show the same result.  That would mean lower sales of high cost specialty 380 ammo.

I have a friend who works in firearms forensics and sees the terminal performance of a lot of mouse gun calibers.  

He often carries a small 380 or 22 wmr.  

He runs Gold Dot in everything and says it is the most dependable performing ammo across all spectrums.  

I have heard good about the Hornady and all the higher powered euro loads of FMJ.  

All in all, I would err on the side of penetration and do a euro load FMJ

Gold dots, always have always will. Feeds perfect through my lcp.

I have put down my 380 critical defense and golden sabers for 380 fiocchi xtrema 90 gr. hornady xtp. Watch the "Ammo Quest" .380 Final Wrapup vid for yourselves

link to vid

Federal Hydra Shocks and Spear Gold Dot for me for my carry rounds.

I run Federal HST. I use to be a Gold Dot guy, but Federal has upped the ante in my book.

Xtp is a high penetration hollow point.

I would probably just use FMJ.

Wouldn't 12"-14" of penetration and reliable expansion (ballistic gel covered with denim) with the 380 Fiocchi Extrema 90 gr Hornady XTP be ideal?

You're right about Critical Defense in .380 not having enough penetration, but the claims of bullet separation on this non bonded and streamlined evolution of the XTP called the Flexlock is something my tests using calibrated simtest blocks have yielded the opposite as it stays together like a bonded.



The XTP was the deepest but expanded the least, the Hydra-Shoks and HST's were about the same in penetration by a quarter of an inch in margin.

I've never seen a CD test where the jacket separated.

Source?

I use Speer GD because it's what I was using in my other .380s (a PPK/s and an older Mustang) and it's been reliable in all of them.  I have no illusions about the .380 being a great cartridge though and from what I've seen in reading and actual shootings/autopsies, the old adages of "shoot early, shoot often" and "If it's worth shooting once it's worth shooting several times" definitely apply to handguns and especially the mouse guns.  

Whatever you decide on, avoid the rounds labeled as +p; the LCP's barrel is thin and there were several cases of people blowing them up when the guns were introduced.  I haven't followed it much lately to see if that's changed.


Page 11 of the LCP Owners Manual

Just bought half a case of Fiocchi 90 gr XTP based on Shootingthebull's video.  I still have a bunch or Ranger T that I got before I found out that it expands to much to get any real penetration.  

Mine likes the Hornady Critical Defense.

Been running Critical Defense in mine for years (Also use CD in my 9mm carry guns as well).

I also use Winchester and Black Hills FMJ, mostly for practice, but have no issue with them being carry ammo.

I like the Winchester flat point 95 grain FMJ.

I'm running the 99 grain HST's in my LCP.  Perfect feeding.

As was stated above, you need to go to the Shootingthebull410 Youtube channel and watch his .380 Ammo Quest testing. He specifically tests out of a Taurus TCP, which is the same size as the LCP. He tests in ballistic gel and is looking for a .380 load that meets FBI specs (minimum of 12"/maximum of 18" penetration) with both bare gel (best case scenario) and 4 layers of heavy denim (worst case scenario). Testing using denim isn't because anyone particularly thinks that denim clothes are in vogue with bad guys, it is because denim is very hard on JHP bullets. If the bullet can penetrate denim and still expand, chances are that it will still expand after penetrating just about any other type of clothing. It is also relatively cheap and is repeatable for future testing.

What he found is that most .380 ammo either expands well and does not penetrate well (Fed HST, for example) or doesn't expand well and may well overpenetrate (FMJ). Basically, .380 doesn't have the energy to do both well at the same time.

The absolute best ammo he tested was any of the various loadings using Hornady XTP bullets. The standard JHP bullet, not the bullets using the polymer plug in the tip. They expand very modestly (IIRC, they only typically expand to .42" or .43") but meet the FBI specs for penetration. Again, IIRC, the loads using the XTP bullet typically penetrated 13-14" or so.

The thing I don't like about the specialty loads that use "hydrostatic forces" to cause wounding, like the Polycase ammo, is that "hydrostatic wounding" just doesn't occur at handgun bullet velocities. Sure, videos of the massive temporary cavities these bullets show is impressive, but the temporary cavity is just that, temporary. Ballistics testing and reviews of actual shooting results has shown that bullet velocities need to be in the vicinity of 2200 FPS in order to tear bodily tissues. Below that velocity, tissues effected by the temporary cavity just stretch out of the way, then snap back into place and are not torn or really effected in any way. The tissues may bruise, but they don't tear and, if the person survives the shot, the tissue really isn't damaged in any way. At typical handgun velocities, this leaves crushing/tearing of tissue through the bullet actually touching it/tearing it/punching holes in it.

FMJ is a poor choice for defensive use if you have a choice. What seems to happen to FMJ is that when the bullet punches through skin or tissue (and this is not just limited to .380, it is with any handgun FMJ bullet), the more smoothly pointed bullet punches a very small hole for the size of the bullet because of the elasticity of the tissues. The tissue stretches, then a hole forms, then the tissue snaps back with a rather small hole in it. Think of punching a hole through plastic wrap with a pencil, The plastic wrap stretches before the pencil pierces it and, when you pull the pencil out, the hole is quite a bit smaller than the pencil. Now, think of this happening through the entire wound cavity. I don't know if this size comparison is right, but let's say you shoot someone with a .380 FMJ bullet. Sure, the bullet diameter is .355, but when it hits skin and tissue, the hole it punches may be .1" or .2" because of the elasticity of the skin and tissues. In fact, I have read that quite often with pistol FMJ bullets, the hole may well close itself because of the elasticity of the skin and body tissues.

This is why we use JHP ammo in pistols. The JHP expands, making it larger, which can cut a larger hole in the skin and tissues. In addition, the jagged edges of the petals peeling back can cut the tissues, instead of just pushing them out of the way and punching a small hole. Anything that makes a larger hole is a good thing and cutting tissue results in more bleeding and tissue damage, as well as making the bullet larger in diameter, which gives it a larger chance to strike vital organs.

The reason that the FBI specifies 12-18" of penetration is to allow for less than optimal shot placement and odd orientations of people you may be shooting at. Sure, with a perfect, head on angle with an unobstructed shot to the chest. the heart lies about 4-5" deep in the chest. However, do you really think a bad guy is going to just stand there and let you shoot him in the chest? He may be turning, which means that instead of 4-5" deep, you now need to shoot through his upper arms to reach the chest. Your 4-5" shot just became 10-12", even if your bullet doesn't hit the bone in the upper arm. What if he has a gun and has raised it to shoot at you? Now you have to possibly shoot through his arms to reach his chest, another 10-12" shot. This doesn't even factor in bones, which can equal a few more inches of penetration needed to punch through the sternum or ribs to reach the heart/CNS.

Factor the elasticity of the body tissues with the fact that the temporary cavity at handgun velocities doesn't really do anything and I, myself, don't think these new bullet designs will prove to be any more effective than FMJ in actual use. My opinion is to leave them alone until they have some street results and use proven bullet designs instead. In .380, Hydra-Shok seems to do OK. Not great, but OK. The bullet seems to plug up when fired through heavy clothing and doesn't expand, but it seems to penetrate pretty well. Gold Dot also seems to do OK. Again, not great, but OK. It expands too big when fired in bare gel and underpenetrates a little, but not too badly. Everything else besides the Hornady XTP either doesn't expand out of the micro pistols and overpenetrates or expands too large and underpenetrates, sometimes by a large margin. For example, IIRC, Federal HST in .380 only penetrates 7-8" in bare gel because it expands to massive diameters. .380 doesn't have the energy to push a large bullet deep enough, so it underpenetrates. For me, that leaves Hornady XTP bullets.

After all of that, what it boils down to is, do your own research and see what you, personally, like. The good thing about the information age is that there are lots of people doing ballistic testing and making their research available to the general public. Do some research and take what you see and read with a grain of salt. Eventually, you will come up with something that you like and are comfortable with, For me, Gold Dots don't underperform enough to stop carrying what I already have. When they are gone, though, I'm going to use Hornady American Gunner in .380, which uses the XTP bullet. It is available and relatively cheap and seems to work just as well as the other loadings which use the same bullet in the limited testing I have seen of it. As always, you pays your money and you takes your chance. Good luck.

Bub75

I load a PDX1 in the chamber, mag full of FMJ. As I know, bone or no bone, odd angle, side shot, whatever, the FMJ is going to perforate the attacker.

If the machined bullets feed and function fine though, I'd say your not losing anything by using then. Not convinced they do much in actual flesh yet though.

Personally I'm not spending the money to find out if they will feed fine in my LCP.

I watched all of the Shootingthebull videos and settled on the 90 grain XTP.


Do the guys that are running FMJ in their LCP realize that you can get 30"+ of penetration?

What happens when it hits bone and what not? I just don't trust 380 hollow points from a micro pistol to penetrate enough, especially when we are talking about winter in WV.

That's one of the reasons that the FBI specs call for 12-18" of penetration. Gel doesn't have bones and is of a constant density. According to the FBI, 12-18" in gel should allow for bone penetration and still have enough penetration to strike vital organs. Unless you have a really strange angle or something, there really aren't any really big, heavy, dense bones in the upper torso that you will have to punch through, like the femur in your thigh. Any good hollow point should be able to punch through arm bones and ribs without too much trouble. If course, .380 uses lighter bullets than the common service calibers, so punching through a bone may rob the bullet of more penetration than a heavier bullet, but it still should have adequate penetration...as long as you use a hollow point with enough penetration to begin with. I haven't really seen much testing involving bones, so I may be wrong about that for lighter .380 bullets.

As for heavy clothing, that is the reason behind the 4 layers of heavy denim in the FBI testing. Denim is HARD on bullets and it represents a worst case scenario, not because anyone particularly thinks that bad guys are wearing 4 jean jackets. Think about a heavy coat, for example a Carhartt coat, for a minute. Sure the outer layer is a heavy cotton duck material. Once you get through that, though, you have either poly fill insulation (which isn't that dense) or a blanket type insulation, which while heavy and more dense than poly fill, really isn't that dense, either. Add in, say, hoodie material, flannel material or, possibly, wool sweater material to account for a heavy shirt. Might be thick but not really that dense. Best case, you picked a good hollow point and all that material might delay the hollow point opening slightly when it punches through the clothing. Worst case, it plugs and zips through like an FMJ bullet. If the bullet you picked had good characteristics before, it should still perform decently. Maybe not spectacularly, but it should still perform. No one is saying that a .380 is the Hammer of Thor, only that there are ammo choices now that allow decent (not spectacular, but decent) performance out of .380, decent enough that it can perform closer to standard service calibers than it used to be able to and, IMO, allow it to be a viable SD choice if you can't carry anything else.

The other side of that, though, is that when it gets cold, you will probably be wearing heavier clothing yourself, so you should be able to conceal a bigger, more capable gun. That's what I do, anyway, when it gets colder. My typical summer gun is my 9mm Shield. If I have to go minimal, I'll pocket carry my Glock 42. During the winter, when I can wear heavier clothes and conceal a larger gun, I typically carry my G19.

Whatever you decide, just make sure that you practice. If it ever comes to having to shoot someone, shot placement trumps everything. A .380 FMJ bullet through the heart counts for more than a 10mm nuclear powered hollow point that misses or doesn't hit anything vital. If you can shoot your .380 better than anything else and can reliably place your bullets within the center mass of a target better than with anything else, you are already much further ahead than most CCW carriers.

Bub75