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Posted: 1/18/2016 3:06:48 PM EDT
I just watched the MAC torture test of the VP9; and it was a little bit painful to say the least. The test was not very difficult, yet the pistol had a few parts break off, and had an alarming amount of malfunctions. Has H&K quit designing good and innovative products? I was very surprised as H&K makes the HK45 and USP, two very thoroughly tested and ultra reliable pistols. Guess I will continue to regard the USP as H&K's best pistol.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 3:38:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 3:52:25 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
Link?
View Quote


https://www.full30.com/video/2a27ee2e8b764e790707789762f2b380

Right here.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 4:08:40 PM EDT
[#3]
He absolutely abused that pistol when he was chucking it at the log & plate.  I'm not terribly surprised the mag release broke...





BUT



The trigger failing due to the water and minor grit is a problem for certain.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 5:37:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Mine work great. Always have and always will. I will never understand where some people think they have become the Guru's of gun quality.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 5:42:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Someone put the rounds in backwards
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 6:13:11 PM EDT
[#6]
This video has had the following effect on me:  If I ever join the Marines or become a NSW operator, and I have to bring my own personal VP9 into some kind of amphibious assault, I will apply duct tape to the hole in the back of the slide that houses the cocked striker indicator.  I will also refrain from throwing my VP9 at stuff.

Seriously, these "torture tests" are entertaining and I guess it's cool finding out the limits of different designs.  But nothing that happened to that gun is ever going to happen to us.  Hell I carry a 1911 half the time and sand and gravel will lock that gun up faster than you can say potato.  My CCW guns have to put up with lint and deodorant and that's about it.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 6:24:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
Mine work great. Always have and always will. I will never understand where some people think they have become the Guru's of gun quality.
View Quote


I hope I didn't come across as a know-it-all. The video just surprised me as I am used to seeing H&K's offerings as some of the most, if not the most, reliable pistols on the market. I personally would trust the VP9 as a HD pistol or range gun; but it is not something I would even compare to the USP and HK45 in terms of reliability. Hopefully I cleared things up.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 6:27:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 9:36:39 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:


I just watched the MAC torture test of the VP9; and it was a little bit painful to say the least. The test was not very difficult, yet the pistol had a few parts break off, and had an alarming amount of malfunctions. Has H&K quit designing good and innovative products? I was very surprised as H&K makes the HK45 and USP, two very thoroughly tested and ultra reliable pistols. Guess I will continue to regard the USP as H&K's best pistol.
View Quote
One test.  Doesn't mean much.

 
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 11:03:11 PM EDT
[#10]
My Glock 23 must be defective as well since it hasn't had a KB failure.  I seen that on a YouTube video once.  My Taurus 24/7 OSS must be defective as I can shake it and drop it and it doesn't discharge.  I seen that on a video too.  See the point I'm trying to make here?  When you go by one video of a sample of one, anything and everything has to be suspect.  MACs test was unscientific and VERY limited with a sample of one pistol.  Fluke, lemon, bad day?  You can't make a good judgment based on such a test.  In the mean time, I'm going to put my faith in my VP9 and not worry about it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2016 1:33:27 AM EDT
[#11]
probably because its a 600$ pistol from HK, they cut some corners for sure. the vp series was aimed at people who were too cheap to buy an hk. IMO  the torture test is unrealistic at best, i am tired of hearing about the vp9. dont like them? think theyre unreliable? dont buy one, i didnt.

as for hk reliability, i ahve no problem with my 2 usp's, and my friends p30 is tickign along fine, my advice? buy a real hk, enjoy
Link Posted: 1/19/2016 10:21:33 AM EDT
[#12]
I see a lot of people posting the test is/was unrealistic...





Obviously the throwing is not a realistic test, but the dropping in water absolutely IS.





The fact is, many striker fired pistols have a problem with water in the striker channel causing light primer strikes on the first try after immersion.  The problem MAC encountered with the VP9 was something additional and it would have been nice if he'd investigated it further.  Regardless, the fact remains, his particular pistol failed this test.  It's not a statistically significant quantity, but it doesn't completely invalidate the test.
Link Posted: 1/19/2016 4:26:03 PM EDT
[#13]
One part  of the testing, in my opinion, needs some changing. Anytime you drop your firearm in some type of substance-mud, ice, etc., it is always good practice,( especially in a practice situation), to check for any obstructions in the barrel, otherwise -kaboom. If something worked it's way into the barrel, you could be in for a bad surprise. I wonder how many rounds he had through the gun prior to testing. Not that it would be an excuse, but after a few thousand rounds, most manufacturers state to swap/change out springs.The open channel in the back, (striker/visual aid), seems it could be an issue. I have seen many firearms fail in one way or another over the years, but you can't lump them altogether from one example. I have seen Glocks break and have ammo. issues, but I still love mine. It was entertaining to watch but if you see one video of any handgun and it fails, does not mean they all are junk.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 2:19:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Not this crap again....

OP, if you took the actual time to look in here, meaning the HK forum, you would have found this topic already discussed with members replicating the test minus the idiocy that MAC did, and would have found that other VP9's just plain  and simple work, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that his was a defective one.

So no, you will not die carrying a VP9.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 2:42:29 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
probably because its a 600$ pistol from HK, they cut some corners for sure. the vp series was aimed at people who were too cheap to buy an hk. IMO  the torture test is unrealistic at best, i am tired of hearing about the vp9. dont like them? think theyre unreliable? dont buy one, i didnt.

as for hk reliability, i ahve no problem with my 2 usp's, and my friends p30 is tickign along fine, my advice? buy a real hk, enjoy
View Quote
Put the koolaid down, son.

No corners were cut.

And no, people who bought the VP9 are not so cheap, well most of them are not to begin with and those that are, well that's just them being them because their lives have a price tag and it shows. And as I said in the Sig forum, it's good for HK to try and reach out to those that are solely camped in the striker action. Growth causes development, and we can all benefit frok it. Let's not keep HK to be a cult status.

And see those two other HK's? They weren't cheap. But it does prove you wrong on who buys what.

Link Posted: 1/20/2016 2:44:54 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My Glock 23 must be defective as well since it hasn't had a KB failure.  I seen that on a YouTube video once.  My Taurus 24/7 OSS must be defective as I can shake it and drop it and it doesn't discharge.  I seen that on a video too.  See the point I'm trying to make here?  When you go by one video of a sample of one, anything and everything has to be suspect.  MACs test was unscientific and VERY limited with a sample of one pistol.  Fluke, lemon, bad day?  You can't make a good judgment based on such a test.  In the mean time, I'm going to put my faith in my VP9 and not worry about it.
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They must have missed the internet's memo that they were supposed to suck.

Mine have too, oh well!
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 11:28:22 AM EDT
[#17]
I was quite skeptical of the VP9 when introduced, as I am for most brand new designs until I fired one. The grip with the right combination of panels is perfect, it has the same sight radius as the P30L, and a lower bore axis than anything else H&K has on the market. Like all of them they are reliable, smooth shooting, and quite accurate.

Some guy throwing it around and dunking it in mud puddles means nothing to me. The right sized granules in mud can tie up most any gun. It's pretty unscientific as it's not really repeatable.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 12:23:23 PM EDT
[#18]
If you look on MAC's FB page he brings the test up again and in that a few people call him out on it. He goes on to claim there are other tests showing the same failures, but does not post a link to them. He also claims in the video that his pistol choked when suppressed and again claims others on his FB did the same thing.

We understand the test was extreme , but I think a true person testing and seeing a failure would pursue the question as to "why" the gun did this. I have not seen any follow up to MAC's test claiming here is the reason why and how HK might solve.


Also, didnt his testing include some questionable ammo?




Link Posted: 1/20/2016 12:59:18 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
If you look on MAC's FB page he brings the test up again and in that a few people call him out on it. He goes on to claim there are other tests showing the same failures, but does not post a link to them. He also claims in the video that his pistol choked when suppressed and again claims others on his FB did the same thing.

We understand the test was extreme , but I think a true person testing and seeing a failure would pursue the question as to "why" the gun did this. I have not seen any follow up to MAC's test claiming here is the reason why and how HK might solve.


Also, didnt his testing include some questionable ammo?




View Quote
MAC is a member here. When I sent him the link to my thread on facebook that was challenging him, he ran. When confronted again in the Ruger American thread, he ran. Disingenuous is disingenuous. Members here have stated that their's run suppressed with no issues as well. I'll take the experience level of our folks who went out and proved him wrong, with in some cases actually videos, over what some random clown say's on facebook or what even some of the frothing haters on arf say, who have been known to be deceitful as well because for some unhealthy reason the thought of a precious being replaced by the VP9 unhinges them.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 1:25:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
probably because its a 600$ pistol from HK, they cut some corners for sure. the vp series was aimed at people who were too cheap to buy an hk. IMO  the torture test is unrealistic at best, i am tired of hearing about the vp9. dont like them? think theyre unreliable? dont buy one, i didnt.

as for hk reliability, i ahve no problem with my 2 usp's, and my friends p30 is tickign along fine, my advice? buy a real hk, enjoy
View Quote


Link Posted: 1/20/2016 2:56:21 PM EDT
[#21]
GSL, not to get off topic and I think the dead horse has been beat enough, how do you compare your P30L to the VP9? Are the grips the same? I have a VP9 now and like it but I prefer a da/sa type pistol and am looking at the P30 line.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 4:11:42 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
GSL, not to get off topic and I think the dead horse has been beat enough, how do you compare your P30L to the VP9? Are the grips the same? I have a VP9 now and like it but I prefer a da/sa type pistol and am looking at the P30 line.
View Quote
They are almost the same, but the VP9 feels better in hand with the medium back strap but the P30 medium feel's weird. I think I may end up seeing if Talon Grips has something to cure it as it does not feel right in my hands but it sure can shoot though.
Link Posted: 1/21/2016 1:43:27 AM EDT
[#23]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



GSL, not to get off topic and I think the dead horse has been beat enough, how do you compare your P30L to the VP9? Are the grips the same? I have a VP9 now and like it but I prefer a da/sa type pistol and am looking at the P30 line.
View Quote
P30 texture is very aggressive. So much so it is uncomfortable for me to carry IWB against my "soft underbelly" lol.... same texture as my HK45. The VP series has a much friendlier texture and I carry my VP daily.


 
Link Posted: 1/30/2016 11:32:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
GSL, not to get off topic and I think the dead horse has been beat enough, how do you compare your P30L to the VP9? Are the grips the same? I have a VP9 now and like it but I prefer a da/sa type pistol and am looking at the P30 line.
View Quote
They are almost the same, but the VP9 feels better in hand with the medium back strap but the P30 medium feel's weird. I think I may end up seeing if Talon Grips has something to cure it as it does not feel right in my hands but it sure can shoot though.
View Quote


I've tried all the back straps and have the talon grip on my P30L. None of them feel as good as a VP9 out of the box.
That said, I won't be selling my P30L. Take delivery of my VP9 next week. Only lead down range and on target will it prove its worth.
Link Posted: 1/30/2016 3:37:32 PM EDT
[#25]
I fired another 100 rounds through my vp9 today, bringing the total to 750. Not a single malfunction. I don't think someone should dismiss a model completely based on 1 youtube video. ( I happen to like MAC's channel, and am subscribed).


Link Posted: 1/30/2016 11:08:11 PM EDT
[#26]
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is not thinking.
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 12:08:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I see a lot of people posting the test is/was unrealistic...


Obviously the throwing is not a realistic test, but the dropping in water absolutely IS.


The fact is, many striker fired pistols have a problem with water in the striker channel causing light primer strikes on the first try after immersion.  The problem MAC encountered with the VP9 was something additional and it would have been nice if he'd investigated it further.  Regardless, the fact remains, his particular pistol failed this test.  It's not a statistically significant quantity, but it doesn't completely invalidate the test.
View Quote



Nope, the VP9 works just fine and passes the "dropped in water" test.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SMir0VKdo[/youtube]
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 12:48:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Supposedly something was wrong with his particular pistol.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in MOST of the extreme torture tests out there, but they are interesting to watch.






Link Posted: 1/31/2016 1:17:36 AM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is an idiot.
View Quote
That's almost three quarters of the population on arfcom.
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 2:58:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Maybe I used too strong of a word.

It's all been said before and rehashed over and over. I guess it's obvious which camp I'm in.
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 4:34:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Here is my thread on HKPro on my own tests.  A little more scientific than MACs, plus with multiple VP9s, and a VP40.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/229023-hk-vp9-40-usp-water-clay-mud-tests-update-page-6-retest.html
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 4:43:55 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm 1100 rounds into mine without a single failure of any kind- AT ALL.

200 rounds WWB
200 rounds Herters Brass cased
650 rounds Tulammo steel case
50 rounds Herters aluminum case polymer jacket


The first 900 rounds were without cleaning at all (WWB, Herters brass, and Tulammo).  Two separate range trips in those 900 rounds I shot a couple magazines to warm it up, then buried it in snow and let it freeze up again (loaded).  Pulled it out of the snow and kept going.  No issues.

The last range trip before I cleaned it I threw it into a slushy snow/mud mix.  No issues at all.

I've never had a pistol chew through steel case like this without a SINGLE failure.  Within 20 rounds my M&P had a FTE with the Tulammo.  My Springfield 1911 had break-in hiccups in the first 200 rounds, and still occasionally stovepipes.

The only thing that's happened is my thumb riding the slide release, keeping the slide from locking open on an empty magazine.  I've changed my grip and haven't had it happen in several hundred rounds.

I watched the MAC video right before I bought mine and was a little leery, but the gun has proven itself to me 100%.  Most comfortable polymer striker gun I've handled.
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 6:28:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 2/1/2016 10:14:01 AM EDT
[#34]
For those who run suppressors, or find the the VP9 easy to be put out of battery, get the VP40 spring from HK parts and it will run just fine.
Link Posted: 2/15/2016 3:20:10 PM EDT
[#35]
I don't know why more people aren't getting this.  If you hold a VP9, I have one, and a P30, also own one, they are of obviously different standards in manufacturing/construction.  Everyone was in disbelief that they could get an HK pistol for $600, but obviously something has to give in order to allow that price point.  You get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 2/16/2016 12:24:27 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
I don't know why more people aren't getting this.  If you hold a VP9, I have one, and a P30, also own one, they are of obviously different standards in manufacturing/construction.  Everyone was in disbelief that they could get an HK pistol for $600, but obviously something has to give in order to allow that price point.  You get what you pay for.
View Quote

I don't believe that is the case.
Link Posted: 2/16/2016 12:49:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I don't believe that is the case.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't know why more people aren't getting this.  If you hold a VP9, I have one, and a P30, also own one, they are of obviously different standards in manufacturing/construction.  Everyone was in disbelief that they could get an HK pistol for $600, but obviously something has to give in order to allow that price point.  You get what you pay for.

I don't believe that is the case.
I agree with you.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 1:33:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't know why more people aren't getting this.  If you hold a VP9, I have one, and a P30, also own one, they are of obviously different standards in manufacturing/construction.  Everyone was in disbelief that they could get an HK pistol for $600, but obviously something has to give in order to allow that price point.  You get what you pay for.
View Quote

I own both and disagree.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 4:36:17 PM EDT
[#39]
I too have both and the quality seems the same.
Both pistols work well and I haven't had to fix them by throwing them against wood or steel.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 11:53:35 PM EDT
[#40]
If you hold a VP9, I have one, and a P30, also own one, they are of obviously different standards in manufacturing/construction
View Quote


I don't believe HK would compromise quality. I think striker fired guns are less expensive to produce.
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 9:26:25 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't know why more people aren't getting this.  If you hold a VP9, I have one, and a P30, also own one, they are of obviously different standards in manufacturing/construction.  Everyone was in disbelief that they could get an HK pistol for $600, but obviously something has to give in order to allow that price point.  You get what you pay for.
View Quote


I've owned both and disagree. The only difference in quality I noticed was the VP9's slide had a few more machining marks, which does not affect function at all. I've had more malfunctions in my P30L than my VP9.
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 9:40:15 AM EDT
[#42]
I have shot my buddies P30V3 along with my VP9 and they both felt and looked similar in construction quality. Now of course I have NOT sat there and inspected it in great detail or anything, but no felt or observed difference. Now the trigger for the P30
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 9:49:31 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is not thinking.
View Quote

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 1:31:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is not thinking.

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.
I can easily find five tests of arf's precious failing on google, but haters gonna hate, right?

This site is a joke when it comes to being fair and balanced with the information uptake. If the information is harmful, it gets conveniently ignored. If the information happens for one time to the competition while there are bunches of videos showing glocks failing, we show teeth and try and hit for the jugular.

Fucking pathetic.
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 8:25:13 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is not thinking.

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.

Because the tests were so controlled and accurate. Are you Fing kidding me?
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 8:34:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Because the tests were so controlled and accurate. Are you Fing kidding me?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is not thinking.

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.

Because the tests were so controlled and accurate. Are you Fing kidding me?


The Canik test wasn't controlled...it passed.
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 8:44:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Love my HK 45 family ( USP, MK23 ) but CZ is the gun to have in 9mm.

You can throw the CZ against a log and it will break the log,a VP9 and still work......
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 8:54:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Love my HK 45 family ( USP, MK23 ) but CZ is the gun to have in 9mm.

You can throw the CZ against a log and it will break the log,a VP9 and still work......
View Quote
Because that's so realistic of happening.

MAC was disingenuous from the get go.His words were in GD that he proved to the world that both the American and the VP9 was worthless. He ignored it when it's been brought up to him that other people had done the water tests and it still worked and he ran away from addressing it.

His integrity to me is shot. Unsubscribed and on ignore.

Love how anyone that has a competing gun suddenly has to be shown that it's a POS. As if tossing at logs is an actual thing to be concerned about...
Link Posted: 2/18/2016 8:54:48 PM EDT
[#49]
I can't remember which other MAC video it was, but there is another one where he says the reason he started throwing the VP9 against the targets and the logs, was he had already done the water tests several times, it failed each time, and he was very frustrated and at that point had pretty much given up on it.  That is not on the original video.

When I first watched the video I thought the same thing too.  What in the world is this guy doing????

I had a VP9 but sold it in August last year.  I had no reliability issues with it but I did experience a lot of trigger slap with the gun.  I doing know if it was coming from the trigger or the mag release.  After 2-300 rounds it really started to hurt to shoot.  Not fun to shoot meant it had to go, plus that was the time mags were almost impossible to find.

Replaced it with an SP-01.
Link Posted: 2/20/2016 12:40:18 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can easily find five tests of arf's precious failing on google, but haters gonna hate, right?

This site is a joke when it comes to being fair and balanced with the information uptake. If the information is harmful, it gets conveniently ignored. If the information happens for one time to the competition while there are bunches of videos showing glocks failing, we show teeth and try and hit for the jugular.

Fucking pathetic.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a complete joke. Doesn't match any sort of realistic scenario in normal settings or combat.

Anybody taking that test seriously as a knock on HKs is not thinking.

and yet other pistols have passed the same tests.
I can easily find five tests of arf's precious failing on google, but haters gonna hate, right?

This site is a joke when it comes to being fair and balanced with the information uptake. If the information is harmful, it gets conveniently ignored. If the information happens for one time to the competition while there are bunches of videos showing glocks failing, we show teeth and try and hit for the jugular.

Fucking pathetic.



This is why I didn't post my findings and report on here.  The sheer hate for HK (mostly on GD) is mind boggling.  

I experienced some of the same problems as MAC when I dropped it in my bucket of mud (almost same consistency, if not worse, than the creek MAC put it in).  Mine, however, would release the striker, but the mud in the firing pin channel slowed the pin that it left a small dimple on the primer, but no bang.  If MAC would have rinsed the pistol in the creek without dropping it into the mud, he might have got it to fire (I did).

As for the dead trigger, I suspect it was the pistol not being in battery.  The main spring on the VP series is weak and needs a few more coils.  I placed my VP40 spring in my VP9 and it worked (not so much with the mud, but it was a little better).  

I'm still keeping my VPs as I do shoot very well with them, and new shooters love it.  A few modifactions and upgrades are needed from HK (strong firing pin and recoil springs), and it should be good to go.  

I ran a retest with my M&P9.  The M&P9 did fire after being dropped in the silty mud, but as it progressed, it got worse.  Action slowed down, and the trigger went from 5 pounds to what felt like 30.  Even after cleaning it, sonic, gun scrubber and air hose, when shooting the M&P9, the trigger still gets heavier over use.  My VPs never lost their trigger pull weight!

Still, when SHTF, or just my ever day carrier gun right now, it is still my USP9.  These test make me more of a firm believer of hammer fired guns.  After the cleaning of all my pistols, the VPs still have a little grit, the M&P pull weight gets worse, but my USP is grit free and still runs like a sewing machine.
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