Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Posted: 1/2/2017 1:29:32 PM EDT
The infamous Winchester silvertip of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout.  The failure that started the search and development of modern wound ballistics and testing.  The modern self-defense ammo we have today have been developed because of the standards set by the FBI and in their rigorous testing and evaluation.

Two rounds were used in this test. One shout into bare gel and one into heavy clothing. Heavy clothing consist of one layer of heavy 14oz denim, a layer of Polartec 200 fleece, one layer of 3.5oz cotton and one layer of 5.5oz cotton.  
The four lavers of heavy denim was developed by the international wound ballistics association (IWBA) and is no longer the standard used, having been replaced by the heavy clothing test.

Clear Ballistics gel is used and not 10% ordinance gel used by the FBI. Frankly it’s cheaper and easier to use and gives similar results. Brass Fetcher has a really good video comparing the two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pqPBnSYTIc

The pistol used was a Glock 19 with a 4.1 inch barrel.

The first round fired into bare gel had an impact velocity of 1112fps and penetrated 14 inches and expansion was .64 inches.  The chrony didn’t pick up the round fired into the heavy clothing gel but it had penetration of 11.5 inches and expanded to .61 inches. Performance was just OK. The round fired into the clothing came in a little short of the 12 inch minimum. But when you consider the price of about a buck a round I have to wonder why, when there are much better performing rounds at half the cost.  



https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900345189/winchester-super-x-ammunition-9mm-luger-115-grain-silvertip-hollow-point
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 2:28:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
The infamous Winchester silvertip of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout.  The failure that started the search and development of modern wound ballistics and testing.  The modern self-defense ammo we have today have been developed because of the standards set by the FBI and in their rigorous testing and evaluation.

Two rounds were used in this test. One shout into bare gel and one into heavy clothing. Heavy clothing consist of one layer of heavy 14oz denim, a layer of Polartec 200 fleece, one layer of 3.5oz cotton and one layer of 5.5oz cotton.  
The four lavers of heavy denim was developed by the international wound ballistics association (IWBA) and is no longer the standard used, having been replaced by the heavy clothing test.

Clear Ballistics gel is used and not 10% ordinance gel used by the FBI. Frankly it’s cheaper and easier to use and gives similar results. Brass Fetcher has a really good video comparing the two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pqPBnSYTIc

The pistol used was a Glock 19 with a 4.1 inch barrel.

The first round fired into bare gel had an impact velocity of 1112fps and penetrated 14 inches and expansion was .64 inches.  The chrony didn’t pick up the round fired into the heavy clothing gel but it had penetration of 11.5 inches and expanded to .61 inches. Performance was just OK. The round fired into the clothing came in a little short of the 12 inch minimum. But when you consider the price of about a buck a round I have to wonder why, when there are much better performing rounds at half the cost.  

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b446/5pins/6BD3A2E2-B00D-4468-98EF-AC1D88183879_zpsqsceypro.jpg

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900345189/winchester-super-x-ammunition-9mm-luger-115-grain-silvertip-hollow-point
View Quote


My guess is that Winchester still has a small but hardcore section of customers that have been using and buying the Silvertip line since it's inception, and will continue to do so until they die, regardless of whatever else is out there.  Everyone knows at least one old guy like this, and you can't tell him anything.

Consequently, Winchester has to make up the money somehow, by charging a higher per round cost to cover costs.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 2:39:08 PM EDT
[#2]
I have a case of that sitting on a self.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 5:53:07 PM EDT
[#3]
This is the round that failed the FBI in Miami and what caused them to move away it and .38 Special.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 6:40:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is the round that failed the FBI in Miami and what caused them to move away it and .38 Special.
View Quote

And led to the adoption of the 10mm by the FBI and development of the .40S&W.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 7:51:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

And led to the adoption of the 10mm by the FBI and development of the .40S&W.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is the round that failed the FBI in Miami and what caused them to move away it and .38 Special.

And led to the adoption of the 10mm by the FBI and development of the .40S&W.
I know.

Textbook example of why bullet selection is critically important over any gimmicky or in this case, shiny bling ammunition.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 8:25:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Everyone is quick to jump on the 9mm JHP as the failure point, yet it was .38 special that failed harder both in inferior ballistics, as well as lower capacity keeping agents from gaining volume of fire. To the point Platt was literally shot in the face with a .38 special, knocked out with the bullet lodged in his sinus cavity, and regained consciousness and was able to get from one car to another. 

The 9mm round performed as it was designed to hitting Matix and killing him. It just didn't do it fast because it was literally the worst case angle. 
Looking at it all from a lens of modern terminal ballistics, and saying it's a failure is disingenuous, as the modern terminal ballistics knowledge did not exist at the time. 

.223 also had it's own failure to stop the fight, hitting an agent in the arm, but allowing him to still fight one handed. ETA- as well a 00 buck with shot placement and the magical "spread" failing to make up for aiming errors. 
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 8:36:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Unfortunately the site that had a condensed version from the study isn't around anymore, but here's "the book" to read about  what did what where. 

forensic analysis.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 10:30:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Unfortunately the site that had a condensed version from the study isn't around anymore, but here's "the book" to read about  what did what where. 

forensic analysis.
View Quote
Fragmented archives exist. I assume you're talking about this.

https://archive.fo/1IjY
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 10:59:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Fragmented archives exist. I assume you're talking about this.

https://archive.fo/1IjY
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unfortunately the site that had a condensed version from the study isn't around anymore, but here's "the book" to read about  what did what where. 

forensic analysis.
Fragmented archives exist. I assume you're talking about this.

https://archive.fo/1IjY
Indeed! 
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 11:11:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 12:48:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is the round that failed the FBI in Miami and what caused them to move away it and .38 Special.
View Quote

it didn't 'fail' per say.  It met the standards of the day; it just happened to stop 1/2" from the perps heart after going through his arm
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top