Agreed.

Had a G23?

The gen4's fixed a lot of things but in my opinion it wasn't enough but that's just me being subjective.

FWIW though, member harleyfx69 was issued a G22 gen4 that cracked after one year of use (it was brand new brand new when he was hired) and his department only qualifies maybe two or three times a year and he only get's one box a month to practice on his own of Black Hills Blue Box re-manufactured fodder, so it was a low round count gun and his department makes their officer's mount a TRL and issues a holster for that combo so they qualify with it on too. I bet the TRL was the issue and this isn't a complete fix.

Yeah I sold it, dumped .40, got a 229 E2, then swapped for a G17, swapped that for the M&P9c which is what I'm currently on.

Still looking for that perfect pistol.

.40 is hard on frames, ive never personally seen a 9mm crack a frame on a reputable brand. Our agency had to move away from warm .40 cal ammo because we were destroying so many pistols.

Again that is not at ALL applicable to the vast majority of CCW'ers

 

But the vast majority of CCW'ers are the first to point out that so an so cops or OMGCSAGDEVGRUSEALSMARSOC has them and so should you!!!!!!!

It applies.

The information should not be damage controlled, it should be shared because we're all in this together.

It still applies.

Wearing out a gun means nothing to the vast majority of CCW'ers.

 

Ammo cost means nothing to the vast majority of CCW'ers.



The main reasons the FBI went back to 9mm are cost related, and not applicable to most all of us who CCW.

Well in a way you're right; Ammunition costs don't matter to me. Mags, mags, mags, mags, mags and parts, parts, parts, parts don't matter to me either. Size matters though, but I have options because one gun cannot do it all so I have many answers to how I EDC myself. Hell, the cost of the gun doesn't matter either, my life has no price cap.

However, durability and ergonomics do matter to me. A gun that breaks with a light mounted to it is of concern and it should not be damage controlled.

When you post stuff like this you show your ass as nothing more than a troll. No longer trying to actually discuss the facts just trying to stir shit.

You either really don't realize that ammunition has made giant leaps and bounds in 29 years or you are just flinging poo. Not much in between. There is so much good info that has been published in the last decade it is impossible for someone who really wants to educate themselves to come up empty handed.

I think a lot of facts/nuance are being lost on people.
 1. In terms of coming to useful conclusions, anecdotes are useless. These tests are aabout averages, and while they might not exist in reality, they are still the best tool we have for objective truth.
E.G. You have 10 guys you want to buy shoes for. Find the average size. It's 10.5. There might be no one who actually wears a 10.5, but it's still the size that will fit the most people the closest.
2. When finding the optimum, account for all factors . The "best" round for the average person under average circumstances isn't the one with the deepest penetration, or the biggest expansion, or the highest velocity - it's the one with the highest value in combined factors.
  Say you're in the Matrix traing room and 35ft away there is a guy w/knife who is programmed to kill you. On the table there is a G17 in every caliber up to .45, with a single round. You can only pick one: you'd be dumb not to get the biggest.
 - Repeat this with two guys, and two rounds/G17. Now, the recoil/follow up factor is in play: maybe you need to downsize to .40 to make both shots. And the more attackers/shots fired, the more important this factor becomes.
 Keep adding attackers/shots/misses, and soon the gun's dry: mag capacity comes into play.
  Get into a real fire fight: weight/total rounds carried becomes an issue.
 Add in a few facts: (A) NO pistol round is a reliable one shot stop, and multiple shots/target is the norm, (B) a majority of shots miss, (C) all modern design HPs from .38-.45 have relatively similar terminal ballistics.
It becomes clear why 9 is currently the best OVERALL defense round. Doesn't mean that it's best at everything, or some situations might not call for a different round: but in most situations it's optimal.
Should you go and sell all your non-9 SD guns? No. But consider it when choosing a carry gun, or buying a new one.

That's a good advertisement for a FiveseveN.

I'd like to see someone come up with a rimless autoloading equivalent of the .327 Federal.

357 SIG?

 

I'm thinking a straight walled case to exploit the smaller diameter for increased capacity.

Kinda like a 5.7x28 blown out to .312, though I don't think you could quite get there with 5.7 brass. Something with 20+ Gold Dots on board punching out of the muzzle around 1,800 FPS.

I've been saying this for some time, although I will note that 5.7x28 is based on 25 ACP and therefore can't be blown out to .312.

Yeah; wonder if you could get there with a thick webbed .30 carbine trimmed down to an OAL of 1.250?

Yup.

In my dreams!

Seriously though, I wonder if you can turn the rim off a 327.

So, basically a +P loading of 7.62 Tokarev, circa 1930. Nothing new under the sun.
If you insist on a straight-walled case to maximize magazine capacity, you essentially end up with .30 Carbine, which you aren't going to be able to build a double-stack pistol around and still allow humans to grip. Even the Tokarev is going to be a handful if double-stacked.
Someone needs to come up with a modernized, simplified, stronger C96 Mauser so we can avoid the grip size problem altogether.
Meanwhile, we have 9x19 Hi-Powers.

If you will always use premium ammo, buy a 9mm. If not buy a 40, I have only seen Winchester usa jhp's fail in 40.

As for guns if your buying a 40 buy one that was designed as a 40 like a S&W MP, Glocks were designed as 9mm which is why you will have issues with them in 40 more so than 9mm.

I like the 40cal, I shoot it just as well and just a fast, I have put 1k through one in a day during training. My wife was in the same class fired the same amount and was also shooting 40. People who complain about the added recoil of the 40 turn around and buy a 9mm and stuff it with +p or +P+ which has about the same recoil as a 40..

I think the whole argument is bogus and its a fix for a none existent problem and after a few failure the FBI will be looking to go back to 40 or some other wonder caliber. IMHO it's more about putting money in someones pocket than anything. But this is all my opinion which as we all know everyone has one and they all stink...

 
   Don't let your shorts get all bunched up just because someone doesn't fall in line with the masses. Differences of opinions and experiences make for good discussion, where when everyone agrees, there's really not much to discuss. Too, asking questions and thinking outide the box is not stirring shit or trolling, quite the contrary.

    That said, here's another question: If the FBI truly is the final word in the determination of the most effective handgun caliber, why don't all branches of the militany follow their recommendations? Could it be that as others here have alluded to that as with most agencies there must be a balance when selecting a handgun and cartridge? I bet so. Otherwise all agencies and all branches of the military would switch to the 9mm, but evidently they arent.

 I'm quite aware of the advancements in ammunition and bullet development. You may not be old enough to remember, but manufacturers began raising the chamber pressures/velocities of the 9mm (+P, +P+) and trying to improve bullet performance almost from the moment the military officially adopted the cartridge.

  So whatever your choice in defensive handgun caliber may be, just go with it. I happen to carry a 9mm and a 45. I don't worry much about what everybody else is using nor should you. Most of all, don't let yourself get all worked up just because someone disagrees with you!

This needs to be quoted and repeated. Most seem to be legitimately worried about what other people will listen to and get uppity if anyone brings dissension to their group think of how they're seeing things which should be dictated and followed just because they don't want what they don't like being used by others.

.327 Federal comes in with an OAL 3.5mm less than the 5.7x28, with a base only 0.7mm larger.

I enjoyed reading your post and I too am certainly a .40 fan... I've carried one exclusively CCW for the last 10+ years. A G27 for the first (5) and an M&P40c for the last (5). I like it for it's barrier penetration capabilities; especially upon vehicle doors and auto glass. Both of which I have the real threat of having to shoot thru (both my own vehicle and/or another), considering where I work. I trained a lot with the round too and am a fine IDPA shooter. However, one day after a 600 round outdoor steel ringing session my hands were shaky and the webbing between the thumb and index fingers was actually cramping and locking up. I'm a 6'2" 255lb body builder so I'm more than adequate in regards to grip strength. It got me thinking. Next outing we got a shot timer and I borrowed a CZ 75B single action only model in 9mm. The shot timer results between shooting the .40 and the 9mm was eye opening. I got off (5) shots of 9mm on target for every (4) shots on target with my .40caliber. This happened over and over again as I was 20+% faster with the 9mm that I borrowed... against an M&P40 (mid-size) that was mine and modified with an Apex trigger, sear, USB, and RAM... It wasn't long until I ended up with my own CZ... a P-01. Dare I say that after a couple thousand rounds with it I'm even faster with my own 9mm now than with the borrowed 75B SA. Does that mean I've gotten rid of all my 40's? Certainly not! But I couldn't deny the faster shots on target and the absence of any hand shooting fatigue of the equally long range session with the 9mm.  I now carry the P-01 every day stuffed with 147gr HST's and with a higher magazine capacity than my beloved M&P40c; in a platform that is roughly the same size. The .40 is a fantastic round and I love shooting it and the pistols I have chambered for it. But the 9mm certainly has it's place for concealed carry for my needs and uses and I don't feel undergunned with it. I'm assuming that along with saving money and for other logistic reasoning that the FBI might have seen going back to 9mm for the same reasons I have. Maybe not, who really knows? They could go back to .40 caliber next year. I'm happy with my carry gun switch and I still have my .40's and .45's to shoot, enjoy, and fill the roles I find them most suitable for...

I have no problem with the 9mm, I have 9mm barrels for all my 40s. I just hope everyone buys quality ammo. Heck if it was shtf and I could have only one gun it would probably be a Glock 17. I may eventually go 9 for CC. I just read all the threads a d stories justifying the switch and laugh at slot of the justifications, because most people don't actually read what is being written. Most people will balk at the price of premium ammo and say Winchester white box is just as good, or they only carry the premium and never shoot it in their gun to ensure it functions. You switched and you understood the pros and cons, most wont, they just that the FBI tested and the 9mm is just as good. Knowledge and training in are key.

Speer G2? I tested the first generation. It has to be the worst bonded bullet, ever. EVER. But amazingly I had gotten one to actually expand with better expansion that other online results. Shooting a few mags, it felt like +P+ when it was supposed to be standard pressure.

Point? Not everything the FBI picks is always the best or just as good. I know folks using Winchester Silver Tips because they said the FBI is using 9x19 again...the same technology that failed in Miami that prompted the switch to begin with from .38 and 9x19...

 
You need to follow your own advice. I see you removed this little nugget from your signature.




"Some folks should just stick with Glocks.....pistols for the mechanically inept."- gwitn


 

And you need to read the CoC, because you're trying to goad me into a response to set me up.

Participate without a childish grudge as you evidently just did, or leave things be.

Hey! I like glocks.

im surprised he doesn't have us all on ignore,

I smell a challenge.

Well, I already won.

oops, this isn't GD.

Sorry mods.

Below are two videos. One 9mm and the other .40 S&W. Both rounds tested are the heaviest for caliber available. Both are standard pressure. Both tests are made by the same guy using the same brand of ammunition out of the same brand of pistol. The only difference between the two were an inch of deeper penetration going to the 9mm and a millimeter of larger expansion going to the .40 S&W. A human body will never know the difference.

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr Sim Test

Speer Gold Dot 180 gr Sim Test

And as far as the military is concerned who have to use full metal jackets, both rounds will penetrate with complete pass-throughs through a human body and keep going. One will leave a .355 caliber hole and the other will leave a .40 caliber hole. The human body will also never know the difference between less than half a millimeter of size between the .40 S&W and the 9mm going at about the same velocity.

And below is for the .45 acp fan boys. While it is true that the larger round is almost a full millimeter larger than the 9mm, the lower velocity at around 800 to 900 fps for the 45 acp is terrible against hard barriers. If you look at the video linked below, all calibers that had a muzzle velocity of a lot less than 1000 fps failed to penetrate the frying pan. For a police agency or anyone for that matter in my opinion that may have to shoot through a hard barrier, the 45 acp is a terrible choice.

Handgun Intermediate Barrier Test

In short, the 9mm and the .40 S&W can stop an attacker about equally and can also penetrate hard barriers unlike the .45ACP. With a good round from a good manufacturer, the 9mm is about equal to the .40 S&W. You are talking about less than a millimeter in expansion and about an inch in penetration difference.

It's a no brainer and that's why the FBI sees it that way. You are talking about minute differences between the .40 S&W and the 9mm that don't mean much in wounding but mean a lot in recoil and controllability. The 45 acp may wound a tad bit more, but you lose capacity and barrier penetration.

For me, I'd choose the round with more capacity that costs less, has less recoil for follow up shots that is easily controllable by shooters with smaller hands, all while having a higher velocity than the .45 acp to penetrate hard barriers. Your hands may easily control the recoil, but your wife's, young sons, or daughters may not if they had to pick up your sidearm.

And like it was mentioned before. Nobody has ever wished they had less rounds in a gunfight and more recoil for the fight of their life while their lone target or multiple targets are moving in and out of cover. And no matter how good you are in controlling a higher recoiling gun, you will have even more control and be faster and deadlier with a lower recoiling gun that has more capacity against multiple moving targets. That's scientific fact.

You guys need to get over macho BS and look at things with a humble, scientific mind. Bigger is not always better in all scenarios.

Don't take my word for it. Look at the videos linked above, compare the numbers, and see for yourself.

great explanation