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Posted: 7/21/2016 6:19:14 AM EDT
[#1]
Oh man, this will go on forever.
It's all personal preference based on experience, regardless of the data. I'm 6'3 225lbs mostly muscle and have been shooting since I was yay high, and I quite honestly cannot stand .40 from any pistol. I know it has good performance, but I hate how it feels. My smaller brother loves it. Go figure. I've since stuck with 45/10mm in 1911s I've owned, and carry exclusively 9mm (124g Winchester PDX) in both SIG and Glock. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 6:24:22 AM EDT
[#2]
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The heart, if working, will be mostly full of blood. When the atrium and ventricles are pumping its not empty. So yes, if you take a heart out of the body and drain it looks hollow. But I thought we were talking real life. A milk jug is hollow too but bullets perform different when its full of blood, i mean water. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not really a fan of the f-b-i, but they have come up with measurable, reproducible, and consistent testing. Ballistic gel mimics muscle, so I don't know where the penetration requirements fall into measuring a hollow chest filled with hollow organs performance.9MM has less recoil, lots of folks from lots of backgrounds are employed, and many have probably never handled a firearm before training. Yes it could help in followups. All said, I like the round they commissioned to build because the light 10MM rounds met the requirements, we know it is .40 S&W. Just an opinion. I suppose the.lungs are hollow, thats about it though The heart, if working, will be mostly full of blood. When the atrium and ventricles are pumping its not empty. So yes, if you take a heart out of the body and drain it looks hollow. But I thought we were talking real life. A milk jug is hollow too but bullets perform different when its full of blood, i mean water. If you get shot in the heart with 9, 40, 45, (or 380, 762x25, 5.7, 9mak, 22lr, 32acp, 25acp, 17hmr, 22mag) EVEN WITH FMJ, you are a dead man. "Ah I've been shot in the heart." "Dont worry. It's only fmj" |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 8:31:22 AM EDT
[#3]
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Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting. 
But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common. Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting.
But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. I killed a deer with 9mm ball once. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 9:35:20 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I killed a deer with 9mm ball once. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common. Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting.
But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. I killed a deer with 9mm ball once. Kewl! When my Pop was a kid, he killed a deer with a 22 LR....once. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 9:45:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Ok, so based on this, am I to understand that as long as the round gets the 12" to 18" of penetration, the expansion is nice but almost irrelevant?
In reality, I can just as easily use 9mm FMJ and shoot a lot to get more hits to increase my probability of hitting a vital organ. That's how I am interpreting this study. What am I missing? V |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 9:55:46 AM EDT
[#6]
I am no ballistics expert but I thought the main reason not to use FMJ was the risk of overpenetration and the bullet possibly hitting an innocent bystander. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 10:42:52 AM EDT
[#7]
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I'm not drinking there Kool-Aide I'm a handgun hunter, and in my experience 44 and 45 work better than 357 magnum, on big midwestern deer ....and my 357magnum loads are heavier, faster, and deeper penetrating than 9mm I suspect the switch was made so there smaller/lgbt metro-sexual hipster agents can qualify ...and for that, I understand there decision ....kinda |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 11:01:06 AM EDT
[#8]
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One thing I find puzzling is they state the 9mm is easier to hit with and incapacitates better than the larger calibers, yet they also find the greater magazine capacity plus. So, if it truly is better at these two things, why would additional magazine capacity matter? Is there a circumstance - anytime, anywhere - where less magazine capacity is better? "Yeah, that's a mighty fine pistol, easy to shoot, bullets hit hard...I just wish it didn't carry so darn many of them..." said no one, ever. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 12:08:07 PM EDT
[#9]
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Is there a circumstance - anytime, anywhere - where less magazine capacity is better? "Yeah, that's a mighty fine pistol, easy to shoot, bullets hit hard...I just wish it didn't carry so darn many of them..." said no one, ever. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One thing I find puzzling is they state the 9mm is easier to hit with and incapacitates better than the larger calibers, yet they also find the greater magazine capacity plus. So, if it truly is better at these two things, why would additional magazine capacity matter? Is there a circumstance - anytime, anywhere - where less magazine capacity is better? "Yeah, that's a mighty fine pistol, easy to shoot, bullets hit hard...I just wish it didn't carry so darn many of them..." said no one, ever. Maybe not, but there is no free lunch, and in this case the additional capacity necessitates beer bottle size grips. My daughter, who is serving with our armed forces and was working on a promotion, recently qualified with the Army's issue sidearm, the 92 Beretta. She had a very difficult time due to the size of the grips. Likewise one of my wife's friends came to the house to shoot her Beretta 9mm prior to taking a CHL class. She couldn't hit a barn from the inside because she couldn't control the pistol. I taught her to shoot my little single stack 9mm which she ultimately used for qualification and she did fine. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 12:35:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe not, but there is no free lunch, and in this case the additional capacity necessitates beer bottle size grips. My daughter, who is serving with our armed forces and was working on a promotion, recently qualified with the Army's issue sidearm, the 92 Beretta. She had a very difficult time due to the size of the grips. Likewise one of my wife's friends came to the house to shoot her Beretta 9mm prior to taking a CHL class. She couldn't hit a barn from the inside because she couldn't control the pistol. I taught her to shoot my little single stack 9mm which she ultimately used for qualification and she did fine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One thing I find puzzling is they state the 9mm is easier to hit with and incapacitates better than the larger calibers, yet they also find the greater magazine capacity plus. So, if it truly is better at these two things, why would additional magazine capacity matter? Is there a circumstance - anytime, anywhere - where less magazine capacity is better? "Yeah, that's a mighty fine pistol, easy to shoot, bullets hit hard...I just wish it didn't carry so darn many of them..." said no one, ever. Maybe not, but there is no free lunch, and in this case the additional capacity necessitates beer bottle size grips. My daughter, who is serving with our armed forces and was working on a promotion, recently qualified with the Army's issue sidearm, the 92 Beretta. She had a very difficult time due to the size of the grips. Likewise one of my wife's friends came to the house to shoot her Beretta 9mm prior to taking a CHL class. She couldn't hit a barn from the inside because she couldn't control the pistol. I taught her to shoot my little single stack 9mm which she ultimately used for qualification and she did fine. Can't argue with that. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 12:55:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Once I saw that price and firearm longevity were on their list I knew that decision did not apply to me a CCW'er.
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Posted: 7/21/2016 4:42:24 PM EDT
[#12]
US Spec Ops should have consulted with hunters before choosing a caliber. They are obviously at a disadvantage now.
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Posted: 7/21/2016 5:50:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: US Spec Ops should have consulted with hunters before choosing a caliber. They are obviously at a disadvantage now. Kind of a tough point to dispute, I agree. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 7:13:49 PM EDT
[#14]
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US Spec Ops should have consulted with hunters before choosing a caliber. They are obviously at a disadvantage now. Don't branches of the military such as these use hollowpoint, ummm...I mean "open tip match" bullets now? Anyone who's ever killed an animal with such a bullet will tell you the internal mess they make and they've been in use by hunters for over a century (though granted they do have their limitations). Also, aren't bullets such as the TSX, Fusion, Nosler Partition, et al now favored for barrier penetration? All those were developed for use in hunting and in fact the Nosler has been around for almost 70 years. Guess maybe our government is a little behind after all....
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Posted: 7/21/2016 7:24:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't branches of the military such as these use hollowpoint, ummm...I mean "open tip match" bullets now? Anyone who's ever killed an animal with such a bullet will tell you the internal mess they make and they've been in use by hunters for over a century (though granted they do have their limitations). Also, aren't bullets such as the TSX, Fusion, Nosler Partition, et al now favored for barrier penetration? All those were developed for use in hunting and in fact the Nosler has been around for almost 70 years. Guess maybe our government is a little behind after all.... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: US Spec Ops should have consulted with hunters before choosing a caliber. They are obviously at a disadvantage now. Don't branches of the military such as these use hollowpoint, ummm...I mean "open tip match" bullets now? Anyone who's ever killed an animal with such a bullet will tell you the internal mess they make and they've been in use by hunters for over a century (though granted they do have their limitations). Also, aren't bullets such as the TSX, Fusion, Nosler Partition, et al now favored for barrier penetration? All those were developed for use in hunting and in fact the Nosler has been around for almost 70 years. Guess maybe our government is a little behind after all.... I'll let you argue the point with people who have actually seen combat. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 8:53:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't branches of the military such as these use hollowpoint, ummm...I mean "open tip match" bullets now? Anyone who's ever killed an animal with such a bullet will tell you the internal mess they make and they've been in use by hunters for over a century (though granted they do have their limitations). Also, aren't bullets such as the TSX, Fusion, Nosler Partition, et al now favored for barrier penetration? All those were developed for use in hunting and in fact the Nosler has been around for almost 70 years. Guess maybe our government is a little behind after all....
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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US Spec Ops should have consulted with hunters before choosing a caliber. They are obviously at a disadvantage now. Don't branches of the military such as these use hollowpoint, ummm...I mean "open tip match" bullets now? Anyone who's ever killed an animal with such a bullet will tell you the internal mess they make and they've been in use by hunters for over a century (though granted they do have their limitations). Also, aren't bullets such as the TSX, Fusion, Nosler Partition, et al now favored for barrier penetration? All those were developed for use in hunting and in fact the Nosler has been around for almost 70 years. Guess maybe our government is a little behind after all....
Then again some special operation units were using 9x19 long before then, the same special operation units that were also using .22LR. 
People need to knock it off with their absolute styles of discussion. History has proven that there can always be more than one answer to things. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 9:44:31 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm certainly not the one speaking in absolutes as I own and shoot multiple calibers and all my guns are SD guns. All the major service calibers have proven to be effective contrary to what the Bambi hunters say. This is borne out by people like Larry Vickers, Dave Harrington, etc. advocating the 9mm. Delta used the .40, and were satisfied with it, but have since gone back to 9mm for all the usual reasons.
Bill Wilson did a survey... Quote HistoryI did a survey of some of the most experienced shooters/trainers I personally know and here is the question I asked them all.
Assuming you had to buy your own pistol and ammunition (type of your choice) for combined self-defense and self-defense range training use, which caliber would you choose, 9x19mm Parabellum, .357 Sig, .38 super, .40 S&W, 10mm or .45 ACP ? I surveyed the following and their answer: BJ Norris 9mm Bill Rogers 9mm Bill Wilson 9mm David Bahde 9mm Ernest Langdon 9mm Frank Proctor 9mm Ken Hackathorn 9mm Larry Vickers 9mm Mike Seeklander 9mm Paul Markel 9mm Paul Howe 9mm Paul Buffoni 9mm Rob Haught 9mm Rob Leatham .40 Super Dave Harrington 9mm |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 10:01:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Yes, it involves absolutes. You're still trying to find reasoning to absolute it again.
Newsflash, the average gun shopper does not even know who most if not all of those people even are. Hell, I don't even care who they are nor do I want to. I don't care what they carry either, it doesn't change anything. Your absolute attempts still are not the end all as you think they are. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 10:07:12 PM EDT
[#19]
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Yes, it involves absolutes. You're still trying to find reasoning to absolute it again. Newsflash, the average gun shopper does not even know who most if not all of those people even are. Hell, I don't even care who they are nor do I want to. I don't care what they carry either, it doesn't change anything. Your absolute attempts still are not the end all as you think they are. Humor me. In what way am I speaking in absolutes? |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 10:10:58 PM EDT
[#20]
No, this is already ad nauseam and things are never eye to eye between me and you. This won't change anything so what's the point of more wasted text? Eaxactly. Have a good day.
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Posted: 7/21/2016 10:24:40 PM EDT
[#21]
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+1 The first line in Eric's signature box is relevant here Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If 9mm was really as anemic as some folks like to say, one would have to wonder why it's been the go-to military sidearm caliber for most of the world for so long. I can see some room for reasonable debate between 9mm v. .45 or .40, but claiming that "They just needed a smaller caliber so women can qualify with it" is just asinine. It's been killing folks dead for every bit as long as .45 has. It suffers from the same problems .45 does in ball ammo form. Good HP's render the differences in performance between the "big 3" virtually irrelevant. +1 The first line in Eric's signature box is relevant here +1 Again for Eric. |
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Posted: 7/22/2016 3:03:18 AM EDT
[#22]
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Federal data, heavy clothed gel: 9mm 147 HST: 12.5"/.69 40 S&W 180 HST: 12.5/.80 45 acp 230 HST: 13.5/.87 "They perform about the same" 
45 makes a 21% larger hole than 9mm and penetrates further doing it. 9mm holds more bullets, has less recoil, cheaper, sufficient for SD/ duty. "Apples to apples" 45 (and 40) make bigger holes. They will tell you the new generation of 9mm bullets perform "significantly better". They will also say those same improvements just made it to 9mm, and were already present in .40 and .45 loads. They will tell you the loads perform the same. I've actually seen their numbers and sat through the presentation, and the numbers they show on the slide in no way match the executive summary. The 147 Speer G2 was expanding in the .6s when penetrating to 12+. .40 and .45 expanded more and penetrated deeper... Its all smoke and mirrors. |
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Posted: 8/2/2016 4:49:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Funny thing is Col Askins, an accomplished Border Patrolman, WWII veteran, and handgun competitor, was pushing for a transition to 9mm as early as the 1950's.
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Posted: 8/2/2016 6:57:17 PM EDT
[#24]
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Funny thing is Col Askins, an accomplished Border Patrolman, WWII veteran, and handgun competitor, was pushing for a transition to 9mm as early as the 1950's. His book is a great read That Man was a killer 
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Posted: 8/2/2016 7:07:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His book is a great read That Man was a killer http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/358/358959.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Funny thing is Col Askins, an accomplished Border Patrolman, WWII veteran, and handgun competitor, was pushing for a transition to 9mm as early as the 1950's. His book is a great read That Man was a killer http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/358/358959.jpg Is that the book where he recounts his WWII story of sneaking to the front line so he could shoot some germans, and jokes about how he drew lots of artillery and mortar fire onto somebody else's unit and not his own? |
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Posted: 8/4/2016 1:15:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I don't think many people dispute that .40 and .45 objectively do more damage than 9mm. The question is does a marginal increase in lethality justify lower mag capacity, increased recoil and less time on the range for the money?
IMO no it doesnt. |
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Posted: 8/6/2016 7:51:11 PM EDT
[#27]
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Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common. This is the truth. Being the prey and not the predator changes things If I'm defending myself I want as many rounds as possible. |
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Posted: 8/6/2016 8:14:15 PM EDT
[#28]
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I don't think many people dispute that .40 and .45 objectively do more damage than 9mm. The question is does a marginal increase in lethality justify lower mag capacity, increased recoil and less time on the range for the money? IMO no it doesnt. Do some data researching on your own, then measure the dimensions of the expansion of say, the HST since we all love that round so much. Do the length of penetration, and get back to us with your results. Either caliber will serve you well. |
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Posted: 8/6/2016 8:35:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Lots of folks in both camps, any service caliber with a good bullet should do the job just fine.
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Posted: 8/6/2016 11:10:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For you? I can understand. For me? I'm just as well armed with an 8 round 1911 as I am with a 15 round VP9. An increase is an increase. Do some data researching on your own, then measure the dimensions of the expansion of say, the HST since we all love that round so much. Do the length of penetration, and get back to us with your results. Either caliber will serve you well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think many people dispute that .40 and .45 objectively do more damage than 9mm. The question is does a marginal increase in lethality justify lower mag capacity, increased recoil and less time on the range for the money? IMO no it doesnt. Do some data researching on your own, then measure the dimensions of the expansion of say, the HST since we all love that round so much. Do the length of penetration, and get back to us with your results. Either caliber will serve you well. Now extrapolate your answer across hundreds of people, each of which must be issued a "one size fits all" sidearm, and on a budget. Now the 9mm makes much more sense. |
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Posted: 8/6/2016 11:15:33 PM EDT
[#31]
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Now extrapolate your answer across hundreds of people, each of which must be issued a "one size fits all" sidearm, and on a budget. Now the 9mm makes much more sense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't think many people dispute that .40 and .45 objectively do more damage than 9mm. The question is does a marginal increase in lethality justify lower mag capacity, increased recoil and less time on the range for the money? IMO no it doesnt. Do some data researching on your own, then measure the dimensions of the expansion of say, the HST since we all love that round so much. Do the length of penetration, and get back to us with your results. Either caliber will serve you well. Now extrapolate your answer across hundreds of people, each of which must be issued a "one size fits all" sidearm, and on a budget. Now the 9mm makes much more sense. Thankfully I do not fall under that and am blessed to have as many options or guns as I like. |
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Posted: 8/7/2016 3:08:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think many people dispute that .40 and .45 objectively do more damage than 9mm. The question is does a marginal increase in lethality justify lower mag capacity, increased recoil and less time on the range for the money? IMO no it doesnt. I used to prefer a .45acp 1911. I shot USPSA with it, I carried it, I had full confidence in it. But the data out there shows that there is a marginal increase in effectiveness in a .45 vs 9mm on a shot-to-shot basis. However, I have found that I shoot 9mm more accurately at speed as well as faster vs .45acp. That's partly due to less recoil, partly due to more practice for the money. So it's no longer a shot-to-shot comparison. It's a 3-shot-to-2-shot comparison. And 3 9mm's will do more damage than 2 .45's. Similar to the 12ga vs. 5.56 argument. Sure, the shotgun does more damage shot to shot, but there is a speed and capacity advantage to an AR in 5.56. I've now retired my 1911, and have converted 100% to 9mm. In reality, all pistols suck, so I want to maximize my accuracy, speed and capacity while minimizing the loss of effectiveness. |
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Posted: 8/7/2016 4:22:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
I've been in the business of professional firearms instruction and testing and evaluation of firearms, ammunition and holsters for more than 25 years. I played a small part in the selection of the Speer 124 gr. +P Gold Dot for the NYPD. That said no one has better testing methodology and resources than the FBI. The following link is very informative and clearly explained rational for selection of ammunition for law enforcement. Everyone can have an opinion and if you carry a different caliber or loading and it works for you than that's fine. I'm not advocating anything for anyone just put this up for informational purposes. I know some people can be down on the FBI's decisions and question their methodology but I am pretty sure IMO that no one does it better than them. FBI to 9MM I think you mean "rationale". |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 1:50:02 PM EDT
[#34]
9mm is simply THE BEST auto cartridge, end of story! About time FBI got their act together, and selected it.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 3:56:29 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9mm is simply THE BEST auto cartridge, end of story! About time FBI got their act together, and selected it. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 4:23:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Did anyone ever ask the OP to correct "Rational"?
It's been bugging the shit outta me. Damn the calibers, bad spelling will be the death of all of us. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 4:53:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did anyone ever ask the OP to correct "Rational"? It's been bugging the shit outta me. Damn the calibers, bad spelling will be the death of all of us. I like it the way it is. The FBI is rational for selecting the 9mm. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 5:13:37 PM EDT
[#38]
I wonder why people become giddy when a branch of the government selects their favorite cartridge? Affirmation maybe?
With the governments solid record of screwing things up, their selection of the 9mm boosted my confidence in the effectiveness of my favorite cartridge. 
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Posted: 8/23/2016 5:47:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder why people become giddy when a branch of the government selects their favorite cartridge? Affirmation maybe? With the governments solid record of screwing things up, their selection of the 9mm boosted my confidence in the effectiveness of my favorite cartridge. Probably something to do with the FBI being at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years. But hey, why consider that when you could count on a couple of guys that shot some cows in Chicago a hundred years ago, amirite? |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:58:46 PM EDT
[#40]
The article quoted in the OP disagrees with the FBI's previous data on hits in police shootings . The article says 70-80% misses , The FBI article I read quoted a number in the 65% neighborhood . I am sure NYC is single handedly trying to skew those numbers. granted it is only 5-10% . Also what are the 2 loads that meet all of the new standards
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Posted: 8/23/2016 11:32:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably something to do with the FBI being at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years. But hey, why consider that when you could count on a couple of guys that shot some cows in Chicago a hundred years ago, amirite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder why people become giddy when a branch of the government selects their favorite cartridge? Affirmation maybe? With the governments solid record of screwing things up, their selection of the 9mm boosted my confidence in the effectiveness of my favorite cartridge. Probably something to do with the FBI being at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years. But hey, why consider that when you could count on a couple of guys that shot some cows in Chicago a hundred years ago, amirite? Question for you: If the FBI had chosen a caliber other than the 9mm, would you have sold all your 9mm's and bought handguns in the caliber they chose? |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:21:03 AM EDT
[#42]
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Question for you: If the FBI had chosen a caliber other than the 9mm, would you have sold all your 9mm's and bought handguns in the caliber they chose? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder why people become giddy when a branch of the government selects their favorite cartridge? Affirmation maybe? With the governments solid record of screwing things up, their selection of the 9mm boosted my confidence in the effectiveness of my favorite cartridge. Probably something to do with the FBI being at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years. But hey, why consider that when you could count on a couple of guys that shot some cows in Chicago a hundred years ago, amirite? Question for you: If the FBI had chosen a caliber other than the 9mm, would you have sold all your 9mm's and bought handguns in the caliber they chose? Answer for you: Nope. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:36:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Answer for you: Nope. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder why people become giddy when a branch of the government selects their favorite cartridge? Affirmation maybe? With the governments solid record of screwing things up, their selection of the 9mm boosted my confidence in the effectiveness of my favorite cartridge. Probably something to do with the FBI being at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years. But hey, why consider that when you could count on a couple of guys that shot some cows in Chicago a hundred years ago, amirite? Question for you: If the FBI had chosen a caliber other than the 9mm, would you have sold all your 9mm's and bought handguns in the caliber they chose? Answer for you: Nope. Conclusion: You really did need affirmation, because until the FBI made it's decision, you weren't really sure of yours. Another question: If the FBI has been "at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years", why do they keep changing their mind about the best caliber? Why didn't they figure out the 9mm was best, oh...29 years ago? |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:55:54 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Conclusion: You really did need affirmation, because until the FBI made it's decision, you weren't really sure of yours. Another question: If the FBI has been "at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years", why do they keep changing their mind about the best caliber? Why didn't they figure out the 9mm was best, oh...29 years ago? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder why people become giddy when a branch of the government selects their favorite cartridge? Affirmation maybe? With the governments solid record of screwing things up, their selection of the 9mm boosted my confidence in the effectiveness of my favorite cartridge. Probably something to do with the FBI being at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years. But hey, why consider that when you could count on a couple of guys that shot some cows in Chicago a hundred years ago, amirite? Question for you: If the FBI had chosen a caliber other than the 9mm, would you have sold all your 9mm's and bought handguns in the caliber they chose? Answer for you: Nope. Conclusion: You really did need affirmation, because until the FBI made it's decision, you weren't really sure of yours. Another question: If the FBI has been "at the forefront of terminal ballistics research for thirty years", why do they keep changing their mind about the best caliber? Why didn't they figure out the 9mm was best, oh...29 years ago? lol wut? I own more .45s than 9mm's. What did I need affirmation of? Regarding your second question - because the 9mm loads they tested at that time under the criteria of that particular test didn't perform to the standard they were looking for. This is fun tho. My turn. Following your logic, would you have sold off all your caliber of choice had they selected it instead? |
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Posted: 8/25/2016 5:44:39 PM EDT
[#45]
Anyone think this is just churn to turn over firearms and provide kickbacks?
I personally like the police trade in glock 22s. Will wind up with one or two more next year maybe. I really like when sgammo or someone has some spiffy hollow point 40 cal ammo of some sort priced for cheaper than some of the 40 cal ball ammo on their own website. I figure it is departments or others trading ammo out to go to 9mm. |
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Posted: 8/25/2016 7:37:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone think this is just churn to turn over firearms and provide kickbacks? I personally like the police trade in glock 22s. Will wind up with one or two more next year maybe. I really like when sgammo or someone has some spiffy hollow point 40 cal ammo of some sort priced for cheaper than some of the 40 cal ball ammo on their own website. I figure it is departments or others trading ammo out to go to 9mm. Nah. This is the direction things have been heading for several years now. The surplus .40 can accounted for by contract overruns of the numerous agencies still using .40 S&W. |
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Posted: 8/25/2016 9:50:53 PM EDT
[#47]
The .40 is hard on guns and shooters plus the ammo is more expensive the effectiveness of the .40 is only marginally better. Makes since to me.
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Posted: 8/25/2016 10:25:04 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The .40 is hard on guns and shooters plus the ammo is more expensive the effectiveness of the .40 is only marginally better. Makes since to me. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 4:43:18 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IN a current GD thread on 1911 Hype (it's the actual title), two members said that their department issued G22's and G23's were falling apart with lights mounted. This may have placed a specific reasoning in the decision making process too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The .40 is hard on guns and shooters plus the ammo is more expensive the effectiveness of the .40 is only marginally better. Makes since to me. I thought they said "failing" which was a long time problem with wml on glock .40s |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:33:50 AM EDT
[#50]
The G4 glocks were supposed to fix the WML issue.
I had a Gen4 23 and it never had any issues with a TLR1 |
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