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Posted: 9/26/2015 2:12:46 AM EDT
[#1]
In for info
147 HST is my go to as well. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 2:19:27 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 9/26/2015 2:51:05 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm interested in this as well, I use Winchester 147gr train and defend ammo for training and suppressing, but I've wondered if it will match up with hst 147gr poi.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 6:34:24 AM EDT
[#4]
I prefer Speer Gold Dot 124gr. +P for my carry 9's.
IMO it is the best premium bonded ammunition. But then again, it is JMO. YMMV. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 8:16:19 AM EDT
[#5]
I would carry either without hesitation, but I currently use RA9T because I can reliably get it by the case.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 8:49:53 AM EDT
[#6]
Winchester makes great ammo. I carry it with no hesitation. Nice uniform expansion.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 12:00:36 PM EDT
[#7]
Check out TNOutdoors9 on YT.
I know he has tested the HST and if he has tested the Ranger (I don't know; I carry HSTs!) you will be able to see a back-to-back comparison (he cals his gel and shoots everything the same way each time). |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 12:17:02 PM EDT
[#8]
I sell both brands and have been to many Factory demo tests put on by Winchester and Federal. There is not a real difference between them. There are a lot of armature testing on YouTube but they are as scientific as taking a wild guess. It really comes down to brand preference.
I sell Ranger, Gold Dot LE, Golden Saber Bonded LE, Federal Tactical, and Hornady LE. I carry whatever load I happen to have in stock when I need more ammo. Right now this is what I have in some of my pistols. This may change if I go out to the farm and shoot today. Primary Duty G17 Ranger Bonded 147 RA9B Secondary Duty - plain clothes Springfield 1911 Federal Tactical Hydra Shok 230gr Back up off duty Kahr CW9 Federal XM9001 115gr (old RCMP load) Night stand G17 RA9T 147gr Night Stand other side of bed S&W 36 Speer Gold Dot SB 125gr Sock drawer Ruger P95 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr Den- computer room Colt 1991 9mm RA9T 147gr |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 7:31:37 PM EDT
[#9]
I like Ranger, but can rarely find it so I use HST.
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Posted: 9/28/2015 8:23:36 AM EDT
[#10]
In the tests I have seen and in my own limited experience, both are at the top end of the hollow point spectrum, and both are just about equal in performance.
The HST is my favorite out of the two, but only by the slimmest of margins. Also, it is much easier for me to find and a little cheaper than the T-Series. If you are talking about Ranger Bonded, it is a solid performer as well, but I consider it a tier below the HST and T-Series personally. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 11:37:56 PM EDT
[#11]
I don't know about the terminal performance difference, if there is really any, but I have had two lots of Winchester factory ammo, both Ranger class ammo in the last 5 years with primer problems. These included a high primer, a reversed primer, and a couple of rounds that would not go off at all even with several strikes. I suspect the primer pellet crumbled in the two that were misfires.
It could happen with any brand I suspect, but I am especially careful about inspecting any Winchester factory ammo before I load a mag that might be used for serious social purposes. I will continue to have doubts about their QA based on those two lots. |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 8:24:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know about the terminal performance difference, if there is really any, but I have had two lots of Winchester factory ammo, both Ranger class ammo in the last 5 years with primer problems. These included a high primer, a reversed primer, and a couple of rounds that would not go off at all even with several strikes. I suspect the primer pellet crumbled in the two that were misfires. It could happen with any brand I suspect, but I am especially careful about inspecting any Winchester factory ammo before I load a mag that might be used for serious social purposes. I will continue to have doubts about their QA based on those two lots. That is interesting. Thanks for sharing the info. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 6:10:39 PM EDT
[#13]
I have seen weird things with every brand of ammo. Even bullets loaded upside down.
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:19:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Doc Roberts says after seeing 10 years worth of OIS with both, he has a very slight preference for HST. IIRC HST also holds a touch better through auto glass.
That said both deliver acceptable performance and are on the "list", and I own both and would be comfortable with either one. |
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Posted: 10/20/2015 2:44:14 PM EDT
[#15]
I have a large stock pile of Winchester Ranger T in 147gr 9mm, as well as a stock pile of HST in 9mm: 124gr, 147gr, 147gr +P, HST in 40 S&W in 180gr, and 45 HST in 230gr and 230gr +p.
As someone who has had to use his ccw (Read about it in my GD thread), I can tell you I had it loaded with 147gr Ranger T at the time. I will trust my life to either of the two lines as they both have excellent performance. The Ranger T did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do. Expanded perfectly, entered the BG, and did not pass through. In summary, don't be afraid to use either of them. They will both do exactly what you needed and can be trusted. |
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Posted: 10/21/2015 1:38:27 PM EDT
[#16]
I used to ride crotch rockets and when I first started my opinion was that the best/fastest bike wins, then I realized it's the rider and not the bike as much.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/21/2015 7:36:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would carry either without hesitation. Me too, have both. |
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Posted: 10/26/2015 7:21:12 PM EDT
[#18]
RA9T is what i carried before HST. Either one is perfectly acceptable carry ammo. Use whatever you can get consistantly for the best price.
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Posted: 10/26/2015 9:23:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Guy above said it all- buy whichever you can get for the best price, no real difference.
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Posted: 10/30/2015 3:19:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doc Roberts says after seeing 10 years worth of OIS with both, he has a very slight preference for HST. IIRC HST also holds a touch better through auto glass. That said both deliver acceptable performance and are on the "list", and I own both and would be comfortable with either one. I'm still learning but your comment reminded me about something I've always wondered about. Why is auto glass so tough on hollow points? Is it the gummy layer in Safety Glass specifically or glass in general? |
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Posted: 10/31/2015 3:31:36 PM EDT
[#21]
It is hard to get but I carry WW 127 +P+ I scored a case a few years ago and have only used a couple of boxes of it. I developed a handload that fires at the same POI and the same recoil.
However in my stash I have 5 boxes of WW 147 grain and a case of HST because my DB9 and Sig P290 love it. (Yes my DB9 works  )
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Posted: 11/1/2015 5:14:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Winchester Train and Defend is what I've gone to. Seems like a no brainer for me. Train rounds available a Wally for around 15 bucks for 50 rounds.
Defend rounds performs great in gel testing. Here's the testing They do indeed feel the same in shooting and the poi/poa is the same...and are available. |
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Posted: 11/16/2015 9:04:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Federal only does one thing..... Make ammo.... nothing else... Thats why I run there stuff...
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Posted: 12/27/2015 6:54:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Federal only does one thing..... Make ammo.... nothing else... Thats why I run there stuff... Good point! |
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Posted: 12/27/2015 7:38:15 PM EDT
[#25]
All the service calibers work the same on "the street." Federal 9BP is $17 for a box of 50. Don't squander money on the hot-dog stuff.
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Posted: 12/28/2015 4:01:52 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All the service calibers work the same on "the street." Federal 9BP is $17 for a box of 50. Don't squander money on the hot-dog stuff. Did you type that with a straight face or just trolling? Federal 9BP Hi -Shoks 115gr are old design that will not do much more for you then FMJ which you can buy cheaper if money is a concern. For a self-defense round do you really want to pinch pennies for something that may save your life? Winchester Ranger and Federal HST line are the only 2 lines I have ever seen my department carry. Your comment in red above, what does that mean? The blue highlighted comment, hot-dog stuff ?. If you have links to ballistic charts showing how how good the Federal Hi-Shok 9BP is compared to the Federal HST and Winchester Ranger please post them here. I am attaching Dr Roberts best choices for self-defense ammo chart which does not have the Federal 9BP anywhere on the chart. Also including a YouTube video from user tnoutdoors ballistic testing the Federal 9BP. You can make your own assumptions from the article and video. https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#9mm
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Posted: 12/28/2015 10:23:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you type that with a straight face or just trolling? Federal 9BP Hi -Shoks 115gr are old design that will not do much more for you then FMJ which you can buy cheaper if money is a concern. For a self-defense round do you really want to pinch pennies for something that may save your life? Winchester Ranger and Federal HST line are the only 2 lines I have ever seen my department carry. Your comment in red above, what does that mean? The blue highlighted comment, hot-dog stuff ?. If you have links to ballistic charts showing how how good the Federal Hi-Shok 9BP is compared to the Federal HST and Winchester Ranger please post them here. I am attaching Dr Roberts best choices for self-defense ammo chart which does not have the Federal 9BP anywhere on the chart. Also including a YouTube video from user tnoutdoors ballistic testing the Federal 9BP. You can make your own assumptions from the article and video. https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#9mm  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWl2bEMSKfMQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All the service calibers work the same on "the street." Federal 9BP is $17 for a box of 50. Don't squander money on the hot-dog stuff. Did you type that with a straight face or just trolling? Federal 9BP Hi -Shoks 115gr are old design that will not do much more for you then FMJ which you can buy cheaper if money is a concern. For a self-defense round do you really want to pinch pennies for something that may save your life? Winchester Ranger and Federal HST line are the only 2 lines I have ever seen my department carry. Your comment in red above, what does that mean? The blue highlighted comment, hot-dog stuff ?. If you have links to ballistic charts showing how how good the Federal Hi-Shok 9BP is compared to the Federal HST and Winchester Ranger please post them here. I am attaching Dr Roberts best choices for self-defense ammo chart which does not have the Federal 9BP anywhere on the chart. Also including a YouTube video from user tnoutdoors ballistic testing the Federal 9BP. You can make your own assumptions from the article and video. https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#9mm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWl2bEMSKfMHe's been doing this for months. Trust me, your words fall on deaf ears. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 11:53:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All the service calibers work the same on "the street." Federal 9BP is $17 for a box of 50. Don't squander money on the hot-dog stuff. That's incredibly poor advice. I agree there are some real snake oil type companies marketing shit ammo but the testing and real world experience echoes what we already know: buy premium, LE quality JHP ammunition. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 11:58:26 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In for info 147 HST is my go to as well. Me too. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 12:28:50 PM EDT
[#30]
I bought a good amount of RA40T and RA45T years ago, possibly 10, and it's slowly dwindling on me. I usually go blow off my carry ammo every 6mos or so and load fresh, and now I'm down to only 3-4 boxes of each. I was going to start buying Gold Dots instead due to the lack of availability of the Ranger T.
Not to highjack the thread, but where in the hell are you guys finding Ranger T these days? The only place I can find them consistently is gunbroker and they are selling for astronomical prices. Like $75 a box astronomical. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 12:44:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's been doing this for months. Trust me, your words fall on deaf ears. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
All the service calibers work the same on "the street." Federal 9BP is $17 for a box of 50. Don't squander money on the hot-dog stuff. Did you type that with a straight face or just trolling? Federal 9BP Hi -Shoks 115gr are old design that will not do much more for you then FMJ which you can buy cheaper if money is a concern. For a self-defense round do you really want to pinch pennies for something that may save your life? Winchester Ranger and Federal HST line are the only 2 lines I have ever seen my department carry. Your comment in red above, what does that mean? The blue highlighted comment, hot-dog stuff ?. If you have links to ballistic charts showing how how good the Federal Hi-Shok 9BP is compared to the Federal HST and Winchester Ranger please post them here. I am attaching Dr Roberts best choices for self-defense ammo chart which does not have the Federal 9BP anywhere on the chart. Also including a YouTube video from user tnoutdoors ballistic testing the Federal 9BP. You can make your own assumptions from the article and video. https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#9mm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWl2bEMSKfM
He's been doing this for months. Trust me, your words fall on deaf ears. Kinda figured with 14' join date. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 2:25:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Yup, he posts the same thing in any thread anywhere on the site that even remotely has anything to do with handgun ammo used for self defense.
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Posted: 12/28/2015 4:57:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup, he posts the same thing in any thread anywhere on the site that even remotely has anything to do with handgun ammo used for self defense. Good to know. Looks like he is a good candidate for the ignore list "click". |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 5:44:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good to know. Looks like he is a good candidate for the ignore list "click". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yup, he posts the same thing in any thread anywhere on the site that even remotely has anything to do with handgun ammo used for self defense. Good to know. Looks like he is a good candidate for the ignore list "click". Yup, he was my first non GD ignore winner. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 5:51:15 PM EDT
[#35]
And for anyone curious about Doc's comment on it:
9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing. There are NUMEROUS better loads available today |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 6:19:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Federal only does one thing..... Make ammo.... nothing else... Thats why I run there stuff... Good point! Olin corp owns the Winchester ammunition brand . They manufacturer ammo/ components and chemicals. The Winchester(U.S. Repeating Arms Company) brand is owned by the Herstal Group. They also own FNH and Browning. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 10:38:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Olin corp owns the Winchester ammunition brand . They manufacturer ammo/ components and chemicals. The Winchester(U.S. Repeating Arms Company) brand is owned by the Herstal Group. They also own FNH and Browning. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Federal only does one thing..... Make ammo.... nothing else... Thats why I run there stuff... Good point! Olin corp owns the Winchester ammunition brand . They manufacturer ammo/ components and chemicals. The Winchester(U.S. Repeating Arms Company) brand is owned by the Herstal Group. They also own FNH and Browning. Not only components for Winchester they make it for the other mfg also. They hired more help in the brass mill not long ago due a large contract with Federal ammo. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 10:59:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a good amount of RA40T and RA45T years ago, possibly 10, and it's slowly dwindling on me. I usually go blow off my carry ammo every 6mos or so and load fresh, and now I'm down to only 3-4 boxes of each. I was going to start buying Gold Dots instead due to the lack of availability of the Ranger T. Not to highjack the thread, but where in the hell are you guys finding Ranger T these days? The only place I can find them consistently is gunbroker and they are selling for astronomical prices. Like $75 a box astronomical. The only consistent supply of Ranger I've found requires LE credentials (Atlantic Tactical, probably others). |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:16:47 AM EDT
[#39]
All of the mfg do require the LE creds for their LE line of ammo. Winchester is more active in trying to stop their Ranger ammo leaks. Right now Hornady is cracking down on their Critical Duty 50 round box sales. They busted me last week. A competitor ratted me out earlier this year for my HST sales.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 7:38:35 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All of the mfg do require the LE creds for their LE line of ammo. Winchester is more active in trying to stop their Ranger ammo leaks. Right now Hornady is cracking down on their Critical Duty 50 round box sales. They busted me last week. A competitor ratted me out earlier this year for my HST sales. That's BS my friend. 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 9:55:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's BS my friend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All of the mfg do require the LE creds for their LE line of ammo. Winchester is more active in trying to stop their Ranger ammo leaks. Right now Hornady is cracking down on their Critical Duty 50 round box sales. They busted me last week. A competitor ratted me out earlier this year for my HST sales. That's BS my friend. Hotpig knows of what he speaks... |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 4:12:52 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And for anyone curious about Doc's comment on it: Quote HistoryQuoted:
And for anyone curious about Doc's comment on it: 9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing. There are NUMEROUS better loads available today (1) Doc's info that I read doesn't seem to take into account short barrel pocket pistols vs longer barrel duty pistols or street results on real bad guys. (2) While it is true that Federal 115gr 9BPLE +P+ is a shallower penetrating round due to fragmentation it was the Indiana State Police duty round for years and performed very well for them on the street. Yes, it is an older design, but since it worked well back in the day on real bad guys (not just Doc's gel) I would expect it to do the same now. (3) Federal 115gr 9BP was (and still is) a non+P load that also performed very well on bad guys when compared with other standard velocity JHP loads of the day. (4) Myself and other officers I personally know from those days have even shot a few bad guys with 9mm FMJ and 45 FMJ ammo that usually dropped them very quickly, but today is wrongfully thought to be just a mite better than BB gun loads. These loads didn't make Doc's list either. What do I carry now? Federal 115gr 9BP in smaller 9mm pocket pistols and Gold Dot+P and HST+P in duty size pistols. Are the modern loads better on the street (i.e., will they stop bad guys quicker) than the old days stuff? Probably, but I suspect the difference is much less than many imagine. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 4:43:41 PM EDT
[#43]
I ordered some Winchester 147gr Ranger-T from SGAmmo in January 2015. Haven't seen any for quite some time now.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 5:22:20 PM EDT
[#44]
When referring to modern HPs as being better than previous iterations it's important to remember what that means. Modern HPs give more consistent performance under a wider range of circumstances.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:20:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When referring to modern HPs as being better than previous iterations it's important to remember what that means. Modern HPs give more consistent performance under a wider range of circumstances. |
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Posted: 1/5/2016 10:00:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Between the 147 grain HST and 147 grain RA9T, which would be considered more consistent in expansion/penetration when used in compact and full size applications?
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Posted: 1/6/2016 12:15:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Between the 147 grain HST and 147 grain RA9T, which would be considered more consistent in expansion/penetration when used in compact and full size applications? ShootingTheBull410 tested RA9T from a 3" barrel.
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Posted: 1/7/2016 10:28:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have seen weird things with every brand of ammo. Even bullets loaded upside down. Same here! This includes everything from Federal Tactical .45acp (that was recalled due to being loaded with the wrong powder), damned loads felt like I was shooting full house 10mm; Remington .40 caliber where the cases themselves were about a half a millimeter too long. After the shot the spent case would lock up the slide making a manual tap, rack, bang nearly impossible. Had to take it to the gun bench. I've had rounds seated to different depths out of the same box in .223 (some of them causing misfeeds.) And my most hated, popped primers in 9mm and 5.56... This has happened with everything from premium American first run ammunition all the way down to my 1 and only cheap box of Filipino ammunition I bought out of stupid curiosity in 1997. It happens, and if you shoot enough then you are going to experience the same as I mentioned above. Always look at each round you load into a magazine or a cylinder when shooting. I look at self defense ammo twice as hard before I load up magazines. I'm looking for primers present and seated correctly. I look for bullet depth uniformity, being loaded with the HP pointed in the correct direction, and at the case mouth having no splits, pits, or dents in them. Doing that will lessen the chances of you going out with a bum round(s) in your carry piece... |
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