Curious what the current thinking is in relation to penetration/terminal performance of .45 ACP rounds....hollow points vs FMJ/Ball ammo?     I had always assumed HPs, depending on brand, would offer better terminal performance.   But I also wondered about the effectiveness the military had for several wars using Ball ammo out of their 1911's.

What got me to thinking more seriously however was results I've seen personally.    A friend was out on his land, about 3 years ago now.   They shot a Beaver in the river with buckshot.   The Beaver swam to shore and then he shot it with his 3 inch 1911 using Hornady 185gr XTP rounds.   It was about a 15 foot shot and he nailed it in the head.   Although the hit finished off the Beaver the results were not that impressive as far as penetration goes.

ETA:  It was a Z-Max round rather than the XTP bullet.

Here is the Beaver and exactly how the bullet ended up.   Did NOT penetrate the Beaver's head.  It was a direct hit.




Here is the bullet.  Perfectly mushroomed.




Now maybe a Beaver's skull is super thick which helped stop the Hollow Point from penetrating.  We were thinking maybe the 3 inch barrel did not offer enough velocity.   But then again those 185 grainers should have been a little quicker than a normal 230 grainer.

I think it was DocGKR (Calling him a "gel test wizard" sells his resume short, but will do for conversation ) on another board that's more or less said that .45 suffers a lot in shorter barrels, moreso than 9mm and .45
Basically -  4inches is the "short barrel" threshold for the caliber. That under that, penetrations suffers.
Hornady's site has the 185gr at 970 from the muzzle, out of a 5in barrel.

My internet commando guess? Beaver skulls are surprisingly tough, but that bullet lost a lot of velocity, opened prematurely on the beaver head, and then it was too wide/too slow to penetrate

Sometimes things happen in real life, funky things that don't really happen with gel animals.

Even with a 3" 1911 there should be no problem penetrating the head of a beaver. The one problem, if that ammo is 185 and only rated at 970fps from a 5" barrel, is that the ammo in question is really slow. Most SD ammo that is 230gr clocks at 930fps or so from a 5" barrel, 200gr is generally 980fps, and the 185gr is over 1000fps.

For instance

Hornady 185gr Critical Defense is rated at 1000fps from a 5" barrel, they have a 200gr at 1055fps, and a 230gr at 950fps. There are others from them and other manufacturers that are faster and others that are slower.

The 3" inch barrel takes a lot away, but it would still be enough to go through a beaver head. That one particular show was just funky.

If you want good penetration as your primary goal, but you want expansion as well, the Hornady XTP is what you want. It was made to penetrate , originally designed as a deer hunting projectile, but it will still expand to .750-.850.

I want the penetration with the benefits of some expansion, which is why I load the 230gr XTP at 930fps from my 5" 1911. There are choices that are better for expansion, that will get close to the penetration, but I've stuck with the XTPs. In a short barrel 3", I would definitely go XTP if I was using a hollow point, or I would go FMJ, and if I was buying factory ammo, I would go with the fastest heavy bullet I could get.

If anything, I'm surprised it expanded.  the problem with going through barriers (drywall, plywood etc and I think a skull would be similar) is that it compresses the hollowpoint which then fails to expand once it gets to soft tissue, resulting in overpenetration and lack of expansion.  Could be the XTP plastic insert (I think it has that...) may have allowed it to expand.  I'd be interested to look at barrier studies on that round.....

ETA: XTP does not have insert, I'd expect the HP to compress rather than open...

Generally that's what happens with the XTP when it hits wood and things that can fill the cavity. That's what you want in that case, if you're shooting through something like that you need to get through the barrier , or the bone etc, to get enough penetration to hit a vital organ or the spine.  With an attacker with multiple layers of clothing, like you would encounter in the coldest winter months ( or a lot of the year up north ), it will start to open, and the clothing will clog it. It won't open as far , about .600 due to the petals stripping off and the cavity being full of clothig, but in that case, it acts like a FMJ and penetrates deeply.

On regular summer clothing and flesh and bone, it will open to .750-.800 while still penetrating more than the FBI minimum standards.

Short barrel, large bullet, 15 feet or so, into bone.....

In humans, HP FTW

No offense meant, but my disbelief circuit is having a heyday... I've rarely seen an XTP mushroom that pretty, and have never seen a hollowpoint expand without pentrating something. Did he maybe shoot thru some water to hit the beaver?

My thoughts:
- An HP bullet can certainly be stopped by contacting bone, and it can certainly be deformed by contacting bone; but it isn't mushroomed like that by contacting bone, any more than it mushrooms pretty by contact with brick or wood
- The XTP itself is a very low-expansion bullet compared to the vast majority of HP bullets
- This XTP was fired from a shorter-than-normal barrel, which almost universally reduces the final expansion of an HP bullet


Yet this .45-caliber XTP, moving slower than normal, mushroomed perfectly upon contact with bone, after penetrating nothing but a quarter-inch of hair, on an animal roughly the size of an elementary school child...?

That bullet pictured isn't an XTP. The XTP doesn't have the cuts in the center section like that.

This is a 230gr XTP that went through a pit bull from the front chest to the rear left hip, and basically was laying in the grass under the dog when I walked over to it. The shot was from inside my car, as I was pulling up my driveway from 25 yards. It had been trying to rip the bottom of my wife's rabbit pens out. I came home one day with the thing hanging from it's teeth a few inches off the ground. When I was coming home from town I saw it heading from where the pens were at, so I rolled my window down when I got in the driveway and whistled at it. It stopped and stood still enough for an easy shot. Gun was either a Dan Wesson Pointman Major or a Para Ordinance P 14-45. I can't remember for sure whether I'd bought the Para yet or not. This was way back in 2004, right around election time.

Velocity was around 930fps. The measured diameter of the round was @.750.





ETA, I think that's the one. I know it's an XTP from something I shot. I'm going to look through my photos and see if I find the others. Also, I have the bullet here somewhere.

I use XTP's in 9mm, .357mag, .380, and XTP-Mag's in .454Casull, and I've never seen those cuts in an XTP either; but I've never used the .45acp XTP's and so can't/couldn't call 'foul' on that aspect. Good to hear from someone with first-hand experience with them; because I don't have any with that exact bullet.



That is about the best-expanded XTP I've seen. Not doubting you at all; I can completely believe that even an XTP, launched from a full-size gun as yours, traversing through a largish and tough animal like that could expand that well. But not after traversing nothing more than a beaver's hair...

BamaInArk - sorry, but I think your friend was telling you a tale.

It's possible I am mistaken about it being the XTP bullet.  Going from memory now.   I do have the bullet sitting right here at my computer desk where it's been for 3 years now.   I'll ask my friend again if he's sure what ammo it was.   Possibly could have been the 185 gr FTX instead from a Critical Defense round.

I know it was a 185 gr round.   His 1911 won't feed larger HPs.

Okay....it was a Z-Max bullet.

edit

If it was on land and maybe it was a ricochet. From the looks of that bullet it hit water before hitting the beaver.

Yep... I'd just about guarantee the beaver wasn't the first thing that bullet hit.  On land, soft or muddy ground like you find around bodies of water would mushroom a bullet quite nicely.

Bullets sometimes do weird things.   I have seen 45 military hardball stick in 2x4 target frames about half the bullet length.   I think it was because the frame was loosely nailed together and absorbed the energy.   45 hardball is also known to bounce off objects easily.   Be careful with it.

I know a guy who culls deer.   He showed me one of those 180 gr all copper plastic tipped bullets he killed a small doe with.  It was a frontal shot and it hit the top of the sternum.  Only went in an inch, this from a 300 Magnum at 150 yards.  Did not deform.   Killed her instantly.

Probably best to chrono any loads you use in your guns for serious purposes.   Some loads are a lot slower than they are rated.

My gut lays some of the blame for lack of penetration on the low sectional density the light for caliber bullet in addition to it being slow for weight even in a 5" barrel. For meaningful penetration one needs adequate velocity and sectional density.

I never shot an animal but I did find that my Officers ACP would not put a 230 gr FMJ through a 4x4 post.  I was not impressed.  Got rid of it after that.

It was probably a pressure treated post. If it was PT wood; that shit is almost as hard as concrete from my experience...

Old hardwood oak is also a pretty darn good bullet sponge.

I hope my question follows the grain of this thread.

I've always shot 230 grain FMJ, HP and HST out of my handguns. Why use a lighter grain 45 acp slug? I do have issues shooting HP and HST out of my Filipino 1911. Will a lighter grain flow better? My other 45s are Glocks and I know not to shoot lead ball through them. Will there be any unwanted affect shooting a lighter grain through the Glocks?

If this question doesn't belong chastise me and let me know...

Thanks

Ed    

Damn! I shot a beaver in the head once with a 9mm 115 grain FMJ from a distance of about fifteen yards. One shot stop! That little bastard never knew I was there.

I've never shot anything live with XTPs that I can recall, but I have gotten them to expand nicely in wet newspaper or phone books. Of course that ain't living tissue so YMMV.

Go to 17:30 minutes in, .45acp on a bull elk. Complete pass through with a HP, and the follow up dropped it where it stood.

In the real world, .45 of all kinds seldom expands and almost always completely penetrates.   Ignore the ads.   Look at bullets removed by medical examiners from bodies.    FMJ's as good as the wonder-loads.

yeah, something doesn't make sense

I can't imagine any JHP expanding that perfectly and not penetrating

It must have hit some mud or something first.

I've killed a shitload of big midwestern deer with 45ACP JHP

It does a fine job.


.

How can we look at bullets removed by medical examiners from bodies if they almost always completely penetrate?

Speer standard pressure 230gr Gold Dots and Feder HST are all I will load up for Self Defense ammo. Everything else, I hand load with 230gr XTREME 230gr copper plated bullets on top of 5 grains of W231 with CCI large pistol primers. Soon i'll have a Chronograph and can see how fast these hand loads are moving out of my 5" 1911 & Glock 30S. But seems to be a middle of the road loading.

YouTube channels "ShootingTheBull" and "TNOutdoors9" <- I think that's correct, do excellent test on many calibers. For example shootingthebull found that their is only a handful of .380auto factory loads that actually expand, and they all use the same Hornady XTP bullet. Everything else failed to expand propperly or at all. Keep in mind hydrolic pressure is what makes a HP expand Gel is denser than most real human flesh, it mimics muscle tissue, most organs are softer/ less dense. Bone is obviously going to cause the bullet to deform.

I have fired my carry round of choice (230gr Federal HST) into water and recoverd a bullet that looks very much like ShootingTheBull's and TN9's results in gel...it's very very mean looking. The projectile I recovered measured over 1" at it's widest point (1.05") In their tests I think it was still getting 13-14" but didn't expand as much, I think around .78" it's also offered in +p but I don't like +P offerings in HST. And i'm unsure about the 200gr +p Speer Gold Dots. Mixed reports on them, but they offer the most energy over all .45ACP factory loads at an advertised 518 ft/lb. I wouldn't use these unless I was using a .45ACP is a secondary weapon, say hog hunting or something.

All .45caliber HP bullets technically fail in .460 Rowland as they break up from expanding to violently since they are goign well above their designed velocity... But thats fine IMO they will still do massive damage. And offer around 950 ft/lb of energy!!! Now wither you carry that or not is up to you, personally I wouldn't...some do. Seems like an excellent dangerous game backup / woods pistol.

Thing is DO NOT get all caught up in the numbers. a reliably expanding bullet that reaches at least 12" is the goal. The more it expands and reaches that but not exceeding 16" is ideal. The Gold Dots I think tend to go deeper in gel, but don't expand quite as much. IMO the expanding is more important as both will likely pass though the average perp. And the larger expanding bullet will deliver more of it's energy and do more tissue damage. Increasing the likely hood of incapaciting the person/threat.


P.S. To all the nay sayers of HP... if it fails, it's no worse than a FMJ, if it works it's a lot better. I lose nothing by going with it as my pistols eat everything I have ever fed them without an issue. Also Speer Gold Dots and Federal HST have a great rep of functioning correctly.

I wouldn't count on short barrel pistols getting HP ammo to function reliably. Though I know Speer has some Gold Dots just for short barrels that TN9 tested that did seem to work better in short barrels than their standard offering. I can't recall what all was different but I want to say it was a combo of bullet design and powder.

I thought it was their Critical Defense and Critical Duty that had the insert? While the XTP doesn't.. I have a box of "custom" Hornady XTP that has no inserts. The difference in the Ciritcal Defense and Duty being the hardness of the lead. The Defense loading using a more pure lead (softer) and Duty a lead alloy thats harder so it expands less and gets deeper pen.

You keep showing up in these threads and passing bogus information.

Yeah, seeing as how I posted a pic of one recovered from a pit bull, and, I have a few around here that have been recovered from several animals, coons and up, and all expanded.

For a hollow point to mushroom like the one in the OP, it has to pass through something first, not just hit a beaver head and stop.  I'm with the idea it went through a foot or so of water first.

No matter how many times you post this crap, it won't make it true.



 

As others have noticed you seem to keep stating the same BS.  If this were true every PD in the country would be using FMJ.  Go troll GD.

I always thought, hollow points are for expansion and fmj etc are for penetration. Sure some hp can penetrate.