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Posted: 8/17/2015 6:21:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Sorry, but that's a terrible idea for self defense.
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Posted: 8/17/2015 8:20:26 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, but that's a terrible idea for self defense. I don't completely agree. It depends on the scenario. For typical carry/self defense, I will run ammo with Hornady XTP bullets. If you needed more penetration, but still with a big wound channel, these might just be the ticket. I'll be trying it on a hog, at some point in the next year or so. That will tell the tale. |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 7:49:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For typical carry/self defense, I will run ammo with Hornady XTP bullets. If you needed more penetration, but still with a big wound channel, these might just be the ticket. I'll be trying it on a hog, at some point in the next year or so. That will tell the tale. Why would you expect these to have a big wound channel? |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 11:09:58 AM EDT
[#4]
If I were hog hunting with a 10mm, I might go with that round or something similar. Lots of penetration with the hope of a decent wound track along with it; basically FMJ penetration with possibly better-than-fmj wounding. I personally like an fmj-fp (SWC-like) profile for some things, and this looks like it may give the advantages of that shape and likely some additional wounding on top of that.
To me though, the main thing that makes it a possible candidate for hogs is the same thing that would make me NOT want it for defensive use. I simply don't want the penetration of my defensive handgun loads to be something that's measured in feet. |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 12:05:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To me though, the main thing that makes it a possible candidate for hogs is the same thing that would make me NOT want it for defensive use. I simply don't want the penetration of my defensive handgun loads to be something that's measured in feet. So here's something I don't fully understand about the FBI ballistic protocol as implemented for personal defensive use. Police organizations are agents of the state, and the state is ultimately responsible if a round goes through someone they intend to shoot & it hits an innocent. So they lower the blood pressure of the bad guy one blind hole at a time. If someone's breaking into my house, it's very unlikely there's an innocent behind that person. Doesn't it make sense to lower blood pressure in the criminal with two holes @ a time? You can certainly make a different argument about concealed carry guns and having to shoot in a public place, but I've never fully understood the coining of the term "over-penetration". |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 9:32:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would you expect these to have a big wound channel? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For typical carry/self defense, I will run ammo with Hornady XTP bullets. If you needed more penetration, but still with a big wound channel, these might just be the ticket. I'll be trying it on a hog, at some point in the next year or so. That will tell the tale. Why would you expect these to have a big wound channel? They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 9:35:36 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm just not sure how often police shootings have resulted in a bullet going through one person and into or through another. I'd have to see actual data on that. I think that is really rare. A bullet would lose quite a bit of energy going completely through a body, especially if it encounters bone. This bullet, btw, absolutely obliterates bone that it hits. That test I saw was with only a .380. I'd love to see what the 10mm would do.
In a house like mine, however, that is full of kids, I do worry about penetration through walls wounding my kids, or at least putting them at risk. The quarters are just too close and drywall doesn't do much to stop even HP bullets. The deep penetration is my only hesitation with it as a defensive round. As far as destroying my immediate target, I'd have 100% full confidence in this round, especially hitting with nearly 1500 fps and 700 ft. lbs. of energy, and a wound channel that runs wide from the front hole to the back one. |
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Posted: 8/19/2015 7:18:29 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. 
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Posted: 8/19/2015 9:52:26 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. The temporary cavity in flesh can cause much bleeding if a vital artery is nearby. This is how rifle bullets work so well. Velocity + mass = tissue destruction. |
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Posted: 8/19/2015 11:46:27 AM EDT
[#10]
I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense.
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Posted: 8/19/2015 1:13:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense. All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants. What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? |
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Posted: 8/19/2015 1:59:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense. ...What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? Don't know if it's the same one, but I've seen this one before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2LKZy5-y64 Thing about that one is that it was not only a 20-year-old vest, it was a Level IIA vest, which isn't rated for this caliber even when new. Age & rating of the vest aside, no question that this round would give substantial penetration. If that's what a person wants to maximize, then to each his own. In a little caliber like a .380 or something, penetration is often under-done, but in a 10mm with most decent loads, I just don't see it being a real worry very often. 
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Posted: 8/19/2015 6:21:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. It is no more temporary than the HP's shot into the same gel. In fact, the wound channel is just as big, but longer, even after the gel has stabilized. The penetration is no gimmick, either. Also, the price reflects that it is a. an all copper projectile, and b. it is machined, not cast. The quality and consistency bullet to bullet is higher than with cast bullets. See Lehigh Defense for details on the manufacturing and design. |
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Posted: 8/20/2015 10:38:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The temporary cavity in flesh can cause much bleeding if a vital artery is nearby. This is how rifle bullets work so well. Velocity + mass = tissue destruction. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. The temporary cavity in flesh can cause much bleeding if a vital artery is nearby. This is how rifle bullets work so well. Velocity + mass = tissue destruction. Notice the different wound profiles of two different M1 Carbine rounds: 
Even at 1900 FPS, the bullet causes no bigger a wound than a 9MM FMJ. Only when it tumbles does the temporary cavity have any effect. This round will not cause a big wound, and absolutely not bigger than a hollow point. |
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Posted: 8/21/2015 7:30:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Notice the different wound profiles of two different M1 Carbine rounds: http://www.frfrogspad.com/M1Carbine.jpg Even at 1900 FPS, the bullet causes no bigger a wound than a 9MM FMJ. Only when it tumbles does the temporary cavity have any effect. This round will not cause a big wound, and absolutely not bigger than a hollow point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. The temporary cavity in flesh can cause much bleeding if a vital artery is nearby. This is how rifle bullets work so well. Velocity + mass = tissue destruction. Notice the different wound profiles of two different M1 Carbine rounds: http://www.frfrogspad.com/M1Carbine.jpg Even at 1900 FPS, the bullet causes no bigger a wound than a 9MM FMJ. Only when it tumbles does the temporary cavity have any effect. This round will not cause a big wound, and absolutely not bigger than a hollow point. CM of penetration into what? So what has been shown in FBI standard gel didn't happen? This chart is interesting, but it leaves a bunch of stuff to guess. When I blast a hog, or if someone beats me to it, we'll see what it does in real flesh. Hopefully, I'll get the chance sometime before January to check it out. |
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Posted: 8/22/2015 3:00:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Nailed it. Gelatin isn't as elastic as human tissue so you can't really look at the area of disturbed gelatin as representative of what a wound in tissue would look like. It's also important to remember that many YouTube testers receive free samples from the manufacturers and some of the bigger channels derive some side income from their videos. That means they have an incentive to avoid making the manufacturer look bad. Not saying they're lying, exactly. Also, most are self taught and no more of an expert as anyone who has been an active member of this forum for several years. Here is my test of the 9mm EP, where you can see that it actually produces less disruption than 9mm ball: 
And here is my test of the 10mm version:
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Posted: 8/22/2015 3:05:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense. For the record, I never called it "ballistic clay ". It's ordinary hobby clay. The NIJ specifies a certain type of clay for backing body armor in tests to measure back face deformation. Also, that vest was a Level IIA, which would probably be defeated by any 135-155 gr hot 10mm load. I shot it because a lot of people asked me to. |
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Posted: 8/23/2015 12:02:47 AM EDT
[#18]
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For the record, I never called it "ballistic clay ". It's ordinary hobby clay. The NIJ specifies a certain type of clay for backing body armor in tests to measure back face deformation. Also, that vest was a Level IIA, which would probably be defeated by any 135-155 gr hot 10mm load. I shot it because a lot of people asked me to. And we appreciate it. 
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Posted: 8/24/2015 12:48:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Thank you. Didn't mean to sound bitchy but that post kinda sounds that way. I'll blame it on my phone.
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Posted: 8/31/2015 7:47:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Check this out. Look around the 9 minute mark, or so, when he shoots a 9mm Extreme Penetrator into a hog.
Pretty sure Tim doesn't get paid by Underwood, Lehigh, or anyone. He's one of the most objective reviewers I've seen on Youtube. [youtube]<iframe width="560" height="315" src="ClJcJ8LQFbQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/youtube] Edit: Not sure why I can't get the video on here. Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ Clearly the wound channel with the new XD bullet is superior to the commonly used Federal HP, in this test. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 11:39:30 PM EDT
[#21]
So...what is the "standard" for self defense rounds in 10mm?
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Posted: 9/4/2015 5:37:01 PM EDT
[#22]
I have XP's in various calibers, except 9mm, from both Underwood and Lehigh Defense. I'm confident the XP will create a significantly larger wound channel than ball ammo in both gel and live tissue. Tim's video(MAC) is consistent with other videos and identical to what I duplicated when visiting Lehigh Defense. Lehigh released an Extreme Defense round this week in 357sig and 9mm. I received my order of 9mm yesterday but although looking similar to the XP, the XD should penetrate to "perfection" and offer twice the permanent wound cavity of the best hollow points. I didn't experiment yet, but Tim has a video up on his channel. Additionally, Lehigh Defense has the ability to "tweak" bullet performance based on their CNC machining. They have additional bullet designs for military applications that I was not able to buy even as a LEO. I would not be surprised to see some additional offerings of the XD from Lehigh and Underwood.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 5:45:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants. What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense. All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants. What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? Sorry, Not all.... |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 5:46:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Nope, Permanent. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:24:13 PM EDT
[#25]
10mm extreme penetration huh?
Little known fact about those rounds. They never stop. They just keep circling the earth forever. Do everyone a favor and please save humanity. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 8:05:24 PM EDT
[#26]
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10mm extreme penetration huh? Little known fact about those rounds. They never stop. They just keep circling the earth forever. Do everyone a favor and please save humanity. Thanks for the insight. 
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Posted: 9/5/2015 3:22:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, Permanent. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Nope, Permanent. Please cite. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 7:08:50 AM EDT
[#28]
There is some misinformation in here about the bullet design. If you don't know anything about it, stop and go do some quick research before pecking at your keyboard.
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Posted: 9/5/2015 10:39:50 AM EDT
[#29]
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...All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants... I was out on a stolen-vehicle call once and when found, it had four .40 bullet holes in the front passenger door, from the outside going in. One went thru into the passenger compartment (lodged in the lower section of the passenger seat), and the other three were trapped inside the door. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 11:02:08 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants. What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense. All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants. What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? yay, more misinformation! There are several hand gun calibers that depending on where they strike the door of a "modern" automobile, will not pass though. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 12:13:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please cite. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Nope, Permanent. Please cite. Rifles can wound with effective temporary cavitation. We are dealing with handgun projectiles; thus, the wound channel is a permanent cavity. In simple terms...It's a fucking hole and Lehigh and Underwood found a way to make a bigger one. The bullet is using hydraulics. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 12:47:32 PM EDT
[#32]
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yay, more misinformation! There are several hand gun calibers that depending on where they strike the door of a "modern" automobile, will not pass though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I carry this round in my G29SF. Yes, over penetration may be a concern, but we should all be aware of the 'target' and surroundings before firing.... Even in self defense situations. Personally, even with the power and penetration capabilities of this round, I want options. I imagine that this round will penetrate vehicles, and still have enough power to cause damage to a target. Additionally, while not common, the ease of access to body armor, it is not out of the realm of reasonable that a bad guy could be wearing body armor. There is a video of a 10mm test with this round where the bullet went through a vest with no problem and caused a nice large hole in the ballistic clay (or so the poster called it). This gives the shooter options. In the hands of a responsible shooter, I don't see that this round wouldn't be perfect for self defense. All handgun rounds will fully penetrate modern vehicles and damage the occupants. What video did you see of it penetrating body armor? yay, more misinformation! There are several hand gun calibers that depending on where they strike the door of a "modern" automobile, will not pass though. I bet a 38spc would have problems, maybe someone could invent a magnum, call it 357mag! I wonder if this was an issue back in the gangster days. I guess not ALL handgun rounds FULLY penetrate a MV.
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Posted: 9/5/2015 2:23:35 PM EDT
[#33]
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I don't completely agree. It depends on the scenario. For typical carry/self defense, I will run ammo with Hornady XTP bullets. If you needed more penetration, but still with a big wound channel, these might just be the ticket. I'll be trying it on a hog, at some point in the next year or so. That will tell the tale. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sorry, but that's a terrible idea for self defense. I don't completely agree. It depends on the scenario. For typical carry/self defense, I will run ammo with Hornady XTP bullets. If you needed more penetration, but still with a big wound channel, these might just be the ticket. I'll be trying it on a hog, at some point in the next year or so. That will tell the tale. You just might be spot on, especially if your self defense round includes "woods carry". My XDS 45 with 230gr Ranger T's was less than stellar during an "incident" last year. You could PM me for details, but I'm switching to XP's. A big energy dump will occur when a 10mm at 1500fps hits tissue but it will continue to penetrate deep unlike a 135gr JHP. So you just might see penetration like a hard cast bullet with wounding like a hollow point. That would satisfy my needs. 
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Posted: 9/5/2015 5:58:31 PM EDT
[#34]
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Rifles can wound with effective temporary cavitation. We are dealing with handgun projectiles; thus, the wound channel is a permanent cavity. In simple terms...It's a fucking hole and Lehigh and Underwood found a way to make a bigger one. The bullet is using hydraulics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Nope, Permanent. Please cite. Rifles can wound with effective temporary cavitation. We are dealing with handgun projectiles; thus, the wound channel is a permanent cavity. In simple terms...It's a fucking hole and Lehigh and Underwood found a way to make a bigger one. The bullet is using hydraulics. Hydraulics lol. Cite a single terminal ballistics expert that says "hydraulics" contribute to handgun wounding. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 7:47:48 PM EDT
[#35]
So then, How might you explain a wound channel that is absolutely humongous from a non-expanding bullet that is not tumbling/yawing???? The Extreme Defense(Lehigh) and Extreme Defender(Underwood) rounds have deeper flutes and cause significantly more damage than the XP rounds as well as the best of premium hollow points. What's your conclusion? Smoke and Mirrors? I'll wait for your well thought out intuitive rationale...
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Posted: 9/5/2015 9:18:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So then, How might you explain a wound channel that is absolutely humongous from a non-expanding bullet that is not tumbling/yawing???? The Extreme Defense(Lehigh) and Extreme Defender(Underwood) rounds have deeper flutes and cause significantly more damage than the XP rounds as well as the best of premium hollow points. What's your conclusion? Smoke and Mirrors? I'll wait for your well thought out intuitive rationale...
The wound is not bigger. Show me evidence it is. The temporary cavity in gel is not evidence. Read some literature from Fackler. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 9:20:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is some misinformation in here about the bullet design. If you don't know anything about it, stop and go do some quick research before pecking at your keyboard. A lot more misinformation about terminal ballistics. Read the FAQs. Specifically the one about exotic ammo. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 10:10:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Actually, there is a pressure effect on tissue, which is over 90% water, where the shockwave from the projectile ripping through at high speed can cause damage. Lehigh Defense claims the cuts in the bullet creates high pressure jets of tissue, again, which is mostly water, that contribute to the wound cavity. That's what he means. Pretty sure that's where Federal gets their "Hydroshok" name.
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Posted: 9/5/2015 11:28:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The wound is not bigger. Show me evidence it is. The temporary cavity in gel is not evidence. Read some literature from Fackler. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So then, How might you explain a wound channel that is absolutely humongous from a non-expanding bullet that is not tumbling/yawing???? The Extreme Defense(Lehigh) and Extreme Defender(Underwood) rounds have deeper flutes and cause significantly more damage than the XP rounds as well as the best of premium hollow points. What's your conclusion? Smoke and Mirrors? I'll wait for your well thought out intuitive rationale...
The wound is not bigger. Show me evidence it is. The temporary cavity in gel is not evidence. Read some literature from Fackler. I'm familiar with Fackler's studies. I'm not talking about temporary cavities. I stating that the "Permanent" wound is bigger. I've witnessed this and it has been duplicated in gel. I'm sure you will argue that gel proves nothing; however, a permanent wound channel that is twice as long, twice the width, twice the height, and also displays a significant increase in size/volume compared to a leading design hollow point is inconsequential. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 11:40:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot more misinformation about terminal ballistics. Read the FAQs. Specifically the one about exotic ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is some misinformation in here about the bullet design. If you don't know anything about it, stop and go do some quick research before pecking at your keyboard. A lot more misinformation about terminal ballistics. Read the FAQs. Specifically the one about exotic ammo. I guess you would argue that the terminal ballistics of the XP and new XD ammo are just as poor as the exotic ammo noted in the FAQs?? 
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Posted: 9/5/2015 11:46:30 PM EDT
[#41]
Ok. There certainly can be inventions that improve handgun bullets. The question becomes - is this one of those such inventions? First - how does it work? I take it we're firing a high speed propeller into ballistic gel, and the slinging effect is creating a larger permanent wound channel? So if the bullet was fired from a smoothbore, there would be no improvement over FMJ?
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Posted: 9/6/2015 12:54:31 AM EDT
[#42]
I think their maximum expansion rounds closely resemble a propeller. You can observe the rotational pattern in ballistic gel which appears to be about one full rotation or so in a 16" block and this may vary with twist rate. This may raise a question as to the performance with different barrels. As to whether or not the projectile will perform better than a FMJ; I think you can correlate evidence from the performance of a wadcutter compared to a fmj round or a bb vs. pellet. I believe Lehigh, by using different bullet nose profiles, or different depth flutes, or many other variables that can be changed by the cnc machining process, can drastically change the bullets terminal performance. They can also do this very quickly in-house.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 1:22:04 AM EDT
[#43]
The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere.
However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 2:13:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere. However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. Their is a slight increase in damage because of rifling imparted spin, provided the bullet has radial edges like the Lehigh XP/XD bullets. Imagine a hypothetical "stable but non rotating XP/XD bullet" as it penetrats 12" of gel, each edge of the cross cuts/crushes for 12". However with the necessary stabilizing spin each edge of the cross is now cutting/crushing along a helical path that is longer than the straight line distance traveled. I doubt it is of any great consequence as a wounding/incapacitate mechanism, but it is there. And while the Lehigh XP/XD bullets would benefit from this so too does any expanded JHP. And the JHP to a greater extent because of the larger expanded diameter cutting/crushing a larger diameter helix. I could accept the possibility that the Lehigh XP/XD make a better (larger) permanent wound channel then RN/FN FMJ or even LBT style hard cast bullets. This is damning with faint praise, considering of how truly unimpressive a permanent wound channel such traditional projectiles make. The gel test videos I have seen so far do not show the XP/XD making permanent crush cavities that rival or are greater than JHPs. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 3:05:56 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Their is a slight increase in damage because of rifling imparted spin, provided the bullet has radial edges like the Lehigh XP/XD bullets. Imagine a hypothetical "stable but non rotating XP/XD bullet" as it penetrats 12" of gel, each edge of the cross cuts/crushes for 12". However with the necessary stabilizing spin each edge of the cross is now cutting/crushing along a helical path that is longer than the straight line distance traveled. I doubt it is of any great consequence as a wounding/incapacitate mechanism, but it is there. And while the Lehigh XP/XD bullets would benefit from this so too does any expanded JHP. And the JHP to a greater extent because of the larger expanded diameter cutting/crushing a larger diameter helix. I could accept the possibility that the Lehigh XP/XD make a better (larger) permanent wound channel then RN/FN FMJ or even LBT style hard cast bullets. This is damning with faint praise, considering of how truly unimpressive a permanent wound channel such traditional projectiles make. The gel test videos I have seen so far do not show the XP/XD making permanent crush cavities that rival or are greater than JHPs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere. However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. Their is a slight increase in damage because of rifling imparted spin, provided the bullet has radial edges like the Lehigh XP/XD bullets. Imagine a hypothetical "stable but non rotating XP/XD bullet" as it penetrats 12" of gel, each edge of the cross cuts/crushes for 12". However with the necessary stabilizing spin each edge of the cross is now cutting/crushing along a helical path that is longer than the straight line distance traveled. I doubt it is of any great consequence as a wounding/incapacitate mechanism, but it is there. And while the Lehigh XP/XD bullets would benefit from this so too does any expanded JHP. And the JHP to a greater extent because of the larger expanded diameter cutting/crushing a larger diameter helix. I could accept the possibility that the Lehigh XP/XD make a better (larger) permanent wound channel then RN/FN FMJ or even LBT style hard cast bullets. This is damning with faint praise, considering of how truly unimpressive a permanent wound channel such traditional projectiles make. The gel test videos I have seen so far do not show the XP/XD making permanent crush cavities that rival or are greater than JHPs. I would agree with all of that. I would add that the XP MAY be more likely to yaw than other rounds with more material up front, and would perform as a wadcutter after the yaw. But better than a JHP? No. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 10:07:59 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere.
However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. I'm trying to do the math, but the units keep coming out in rpm, not fps. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 10:44:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nailed it. Gelatin isn't as elastic as human tissue so you can't really look at the area of disturbed gelatin as representative of what a wound in tissue would look like. It's also important to remember that many YouTube testers receive free samples from the manufacturers and some of the bigger channels derive some side income from their videos. That means they have an incentive to avoid making the manufacturer look bad. Not saying they're lying, exactly. Also, most are self taught and no more of an expert as anyone who has been an active member of this forum for several years. Here is my test of the 9mm EP, where you can see that it actually produces less disruption than 9mm ball:  https://youtu.be/S3rSZAsDqgMAnd here is my test of the 10mm version: https://youtu.be/S2LKZy5-y64Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: They do have a big wound channel, in FBI spec ballistic gel. Just as big as the biggest part of an HP wound channel, but it runs for much longer. As for real meat? Well, when I kill a hog with it, we'll find out. It is designed to not only penetrate, but to also to create a much larger wound channel than JHP. As the bullet penetrates through the gel, or flesh, the grooves push it outward like a high pressure jet. The result, at least in gel, shows that it does exactly that. It has a big temporary cavity in gel. And temporary cavities at handgun velocities just collapse back on themselves. You don't get something for nothing. This is a whiz-bang gimmick bullet, and priced accordingly. Nailed it. Gelatin isn't as elastic as human tissue so you can't really look at the area of disturbed gelatin as representative of what a wound in tissue would look like. It's also important to remember that many YouTube testers receive free samples from the manufacturers and some of the bigger channels derive some side income from their videos. That means they have an incentive to avoid making the manufacturer look bad. Not saying they're lying, exactly. Also, most are self taught and no more of an expert as anyone who has been an active member of this forum for several years. Here is my test of the 9mm EP, where you can see that it actually produces less disruption than 9mm ball: https://youtu.be/S3rSZAsDqgMAnd here is my test of the 10mm version: https://youtu.be/S2LKZy5-y64I'm not sure why people are ignoring your post. Maybe it shows them facts? All this talk about rifle bullets in a thread about pistol-caliber terminal ballistics. Force = Mass x Acceleration(squared) Velocity, Velocity, Velocity. It's the 'squared' part that makes the difference. It's why it's pointless to talk about rifle-calibers in a pistol-caliber thread, and why a 55 gr. 5.56mm bullet fired at 3,000 fps will create far more devastating wound channel than a 240gr .45" bullet fired from a 5" pistol barrel at 950fps. And a 10mm 140gr bullet traveling at 1500fps has nothing more than pistol-caliber terminal ballistics. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 11:01:58 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm trying to do the math, but the units keep coming out in rpm, not fps. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere.
However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. I'm trying to do the math, but the units keep coming out in rpm, not fps. 16,000 rpm which directly correlates to the rotation observed in an ballistic gel block. Somehow the large wound tracks observed by Tim at MAC, Jeff at Gunblast, and Shootin the Bull at Ammo Quest are not real. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 12:37:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Their is a slight increase in damage because of rifling imparted spin, provided the bullet has radial edges like the Lehigh XP/XD bullets. Imagine a hypothetical "stable but non rotating XP/XD bullet" as it penetrats 12" of gel, each edge of the cross cuts/crushes for 12". However with the necessary stabilizing spin each edge of the cross is now cutting/crushing along a helical path that is longer than the straight line distance traveled. I doubt it is of any great consequence as a wounding/incapacitate mechanism, but it is there. And while the Lehigh XP/XD bullets would benefit from this so too does any expanded JHP. And the JHP to a greater extent because of the larger expanded diameter cutting/crushing a larger diameter helix. I could accept the possibility that the Lehigh XP/XD make a better (larger) permanent wound channel then RN/FN FMJ or even LBT style hard cast bullets. This is damning with faint praise, considering of how truly unimpressive a permanent wound channel such traditional projectiles make. The gel test videos I have seen so far do not show the XP/XD making permanent crush cavities that rival or are greater than JHPs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere. However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. Their is a slight increase in damage because of rifling imparted spin, provided the bullet has radial edges like the Lehigh XP/XD bullets. Imagine a hypothetical "stable but non rotating XP/XD bullet" as it penetrats 12" of gel, each edge of the cross cuts/crushes for 12". However with the necessary stabilizing spin each edge of the cross is now cutting/crushing along a helical path that is longer than the straight line distance traveled. I doubt it is of any great consequence as a wounding/incapacitate mechanism, but it is there. And while the Lehigh XP/XD bullets would benefit from this so too does any expanded JHP. And the JHP to a greater extent because of the larger expanded diameter cutting/crushing a larger diameter helix. I could accept the possibility that the Lehigh XP/XD make a better (larger) permanent wound channel then RN/FN FMJ or even LBT style hard cast bullets. This is damning with faint praise, considering of how truly unimpressive a permanent wound channel such traditional projectiles make. The gel test videos I have seen so far do not show the XP/XD making permanent crush cavities that rival or are greater than JHPs. Actually, ALL the videos I have seen show BIGGER cavities. My firsthand observations when visiting Lehigh confirmed EXACTLY what I saw in videos. I saw wound channels in ordnance gel at proper temperatures with outstanding results. I didn't see ANY smoke and I forgot to check for mirrors. The XP bullets had wound tracks that I would swear were made by hollow points. The new Extreme Defense rounds will make even bigger wound tracks as observed by MAC but still unobserved by me personally due to its rather recent release. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 2:29:23 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
16,000 rpm which directly correlates to the rotation observed in an ballistic gel block. Somehow the large wound tracks observed by Tim at MAC, Jeff at Gunblast, and Shootin the Bull at Ammo Quest are not real. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The shape of a projectile is important, with wadcutter being better than FMJ, and FMJ better than a sphere.
However, wadcutters create a wound cavity basically the same size as the projectile - not bigger. Also there is no reason to believe that the spin would add to wounding potential as most 10mms will be spinning at under 200 fps. Do the math. I'm trying to do the math, but the units keep coming out in rpm, not fps. 16,000 rpm which directly correlates to the rotation observed in an ballistic gel block. Somehow the large wound tracks observed by Tim at MAC, Jeff at Gunblast, and Shootin the Bull at Ammo Quest are not real. 16,000 Rip'ems you say? The listed velocity for Underwood's 10mm 140 XP is 1,500 FPS. GLOCK uses 1/250mm rifiling. (1500 * 720) / (9.84) = 109,756 RPM 10mm bullets are .400" OD, making the circumference 1.256". 109,756 * 1.256" = 137,854 IPM 137,854 / 720 = 191.46 FPS rotational surface velocity For most 10mm guns (including G20s with aftermarket barrels) the RPM will be lower, since they use 1:16" twists. (1500 * 720) / (16) = 67,500 RPM 67,500 * 1.256 = 84,780 IPM 84,780 / 720 = 117.75 FPS rotational surface velocity Making FDE is correct. And making me wonder where you get 16,000 rpm, unless you have a 10mm with one turn in 67.5" twist rifling? Quoted:
Actually, ALL the videos I have seen show BIGGER cavities. My firsthand observations when visiting Lehigh confirmed EXACTLY what I saw in videos. I saw wound channels in ordnance gel at proper temperatures with outstanding results. I didn't see ANY smoke and I forgot to check for mirrors. The XP bullets had wound tracks that I would swear were made by hollow points. The new Extreme Defense rounds will make even bigger wound tracks as observed by MAC but still unobserved by me personally due to its rather recent release. The only way you can be seeing this, assuming we are watching the same videos, is because you believe the radial tears in the gelatin equal the permanent crush cavity. |
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