Why do people like 9mm and 45 acp if 40SW is better than both - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why do people like 9mm and 45 acp if 40SW is better than both (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 7/3/2015 9:15:53 PM EDT

[#1]

Agreed.

Posted: 7/3/2015 9:35:52 PM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:

Rational guy: Every one of those calibers works the same on the street, and "improved ammo performance" is almost entirely advertising hype. And every one is a pipsqueak compared to a rifle or shotgun. Any of them are acceptable as long as the shooter is competent.

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Quoted:
.40-loving guy: "The .40 gives more rounds than a .45 and bigger bullets than a 9mm, so it's the only thing that makes sense."

.40-hating 9mm guy: "The .40 gives less rounds than my gun, without giving you the big bullet of a .45, so how does the .40 make sense..?"

.40-hating .45 guy: "The .40 has neither the bullet mass of my gun, nor the capacity of a 9mm, so how does the .40 make sense..?"

Unemotional guy: "Yep. But come to think of it, every one of those calibers is more powerful than my dad's .32-20 deer gun. And improved ammo performance in all those calibers over the decades has made them even more terminally effective than dad's old deer gun. So I suppose that means that any of them are probably acceptable as long as the shooter is competent."

Rational guy: Every one of those calibers works the same on the street, and "improved ammo performance" is almost entirely advertising hype. And every one is a pipsqueak compared to a rifle or shotgun. Any of them are acceptable as long as the shooter is competent.

Agree almost 100%. Only thing I disagree with is the improvement in ammunition options, at least as it has made a difference in closing the gap between the common calibers. The mainstream options for 9mm are some better than what we had in the 90's, and are imo hugely better than what we had in the 70's. IIRC, we had fmj, super-vel, fmj, european sotftpoit, and fmj.

There were exotics like the BAT & ThunderZap, but I believe that they - and even silvertips - were all from the 80's.

Posted: 7/4/2015 12:01:57 AM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:

Agree almost 100%. Only thing I disagree with is the improvement in ammunition options, at least as it has made a difference in closing the gap between the common calibers. The mainstream options for 9mm are some better than what we had in the 90's, and are imo hugely better than what we had in the 70's. IIRC, we had fmj, super-vel, fmj, european sotftpoit, and fmj.

There were exotics like the BAT & ThunderZap, but I believe that they - and even silvertips - were all from the 80's.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
.40-loving guy: "The .40 gives more rounds than a .45 and bigger bullets than a 9mm, so it's the only thing that makes sense."

.40-hating 9mm guy: "The .40 gives less rounds than my gun, without giving you the big bullet of a .45, so how does the .40 make sense..?"

.40-hating .45 guy: "The .40 has neither the bullet mass of my gun, nor the capacity of a 9mm, so how does the .40 make sense..?"

Unemotional guy: "Yep. But come to think of it, every one of those calibers is more powerful than my dad's .32-20 deer gun. And improved ammo performance in all those calibers over the decades has made them even more terminally effective than dad's old deer gun. So I suppose that means that any of them are probably acceptable as long as the shooter is competent."

Rational guy: Every one of those calibers works the same on the street, and "improved ammo performance" is almost entirely advertising hype. And every one is a pipsqueak compared to a rifle or shotgun. Any of them are acceptable as long as the shooter is competent.

Agree almost 100%. Only thing I disagree with is the improvement in ammunition options, at least as it has made a difference in closing the gap between the common calibers. The mainstream options for 9mm are some better than what we had in the 90's, and are imo hugely better than what we had in the 70's. IIRC, we had fmj, super-vel, fmj, european sotftpoit, and fmj.

There were exotics like the BAT & ThunderZap, but I believe that they - and even silvertips - were all from the 80's.

But that's my point: There never was any "gap" between the service calibers. They all have worked the same on bad guys for a hundred years.

The .45 didn't knock down Moros any better than the .38 it replaced.

Posted: 7/7/2015 4:29:14 PM EDT

[#4]

Well, no. If that was the case they wouldn't have switched to .45 in the first place.

Posted: 7/10/2015 9:16:44 PM EDT

[#5]

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Well, no. If that was the case they wouldn't have switched to .45 in the first place.

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Just because they switched didn't mean they got a different result.

Posted: 7/11/2015 3:16:09 AM EDT

[#6]

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All I know is I have a FNP .45 with a EFK barrel. 17+1, and I can put all 18 rounds in a 2" circle at 12 yds in just under 4 seconds, and hit a 8" steel 18 times at 25 yds in 6 seconds.

Good enough for me.
Of course the target isn't moving

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LOL

Posted: 7/11/2015 3:16:57 AM EDT

[#7]

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Strangely, that's exactly the same calibers I have in my handgun armory.

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.22, 9mm, .38/.357, .45......that's it, the end.

Strangely, that's exactly the same calibers I have in my handgun armory.

+1

Posted: 7/16/2015 10:05:29 PM EDT

[#8]

They're all lethal but they're not all equal either, it's silly to think otherwise. Each has their positive aspects, the 9mm has the lowest recoil and highest capacity and the .45 has the biggest and heaviest bullets while the .40 is a good mix of the two as its capacity is more 9mm like and it's power is more .45 like. But people also like what they like, and some just like one over the other even if it's personal. However, never predetermine a cartridges effectiveness based off its energy figures, that's not the whole story.

Posted: 7/23/2015 2:59:45 PM EDT

[#9]

Low capacity in a .45 isn't an issue.

I have 14 round magazines for my M&P .45. My G19 has 15 rounders. So, initial load is 15 rounds of .45, and 16 of 9mm.

See, no issue at all.

Posted: 7/24/2015 2:34:15 PM EDT

[#10]

I have both 9 and 40 guns I regularly shoot. I train with my 40 mostly as I enjoy shooting it and tend to shoot it better than my 9mm. For carry, I will carry a 9mm when I get my CCW. Ballistics say 9, 40, and 45 perform similarly with modern JHP ammo. Shooting a 40 isn't the terrible recoil many make it out to be. I'm tall with big hands though so that makes a difference, and the gun will matter as well. I don't think I'd enjoy shooting a smaller 40 cal gun, but anything I've shot in 40 in a Full size pistol on up, is pleasant enough for me to shoot. I just got a Glock 35 and compared to my M&P40 FS the 35 shoots a touch easier due to the length I'm guessing. Last night during out range drills I was able to beat my best times ever with a 9mm, so some claiming that you can't shoot a 40 fast and accurate are not entirely true. I will say that after training with a 40 and moving back to 9mm, the 9 is much easier to shoot. I own guns that are the same except caliber ie 2 M&P full size, in 9 and 40, as well as conversion to 9mm for the Glock 35.

IMO if you are a new shooter, I would push you towards the 9mm as again it should do the job, and ammo is cheaper. I would say that the biggest issue with ANY caliber is people buy a gun, shoot 50-100 rounds and think they are good to go. I guess if it makes you feel safer, that's something, but when the SHTF and you need that pistol; I think the more ammo down the pipe the better. Preferably with some good training along with the shooting. Hell, even a 22LR will stop someone if placed right, so again buy what you want, but prepare to shoot and train if you really want to be effective with whatever pistol you end up with.

Posted: 7/24/2015 6:34:11 PM EDT

[#11]

Ballistics and barrier penetration make 40S&W sound great on paper.

But Id rather stick with the 9mm and have a bit more capacity, less recoil and faster follow up shots. Just my own 2 cents. If I want something that hits harder, there is always +P or +P+ 9mm.

Also I doubt I'll be shooting through windshields.

Posted: 7/25/2015 10:48:32 AM EDT

[#12]

"better" is purely in the eye of the beholder.

Posted: 7/25/2015 3:32:47 PM EDT

[#13]

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"better" is purely in the eye of the beholder.

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"Better" is extremely objective.....sometimes.

"Better" can be quite factual and completely contrary to the eye of the beholder as well.

Art falls in to the first category, while something like rifle barrels falls into the latter.

Posted: 7/26/2015 3:11:30 PM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:

"Better" is extremely objective.....sometimes.

"Better" can be quite factual and completely contrary to the eye of the beholder as well.

Art falls in to the first category, while something like rifle barrels falls into the latter.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
"better" is purely in the eye of the beholder.

"Better" is extremely objective.....sometimes.

"Better" can be quite factual and completely contrary to the eye of the beholder as well.

Art falls in to the first category, while something like rifle barrels falls into the latter.

"Better" is the enemy of 'good enough.'

Posted: 7/29/2015 12:25:57 AM EDT

[#15]

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Well, no. If that was the case they wouldn't have switched to .45 in the first place.

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Ha. They switched because of a perceived lack of "stopping power" in .38 Colt.
But you really think a round-nosed, jacketed FMJ bullet is going to poke a meaningfully different hole than a round-nose, unjacketed lead bullet? Biggest advantages the 1911 had versus the M1892 service revolver were the extra round and faster reloading.

You really think that a difference of ~2mm in diameter, <100gr of bullet, and <100fps MV is going to produce a quantum leap in handgun lethality?

Short version: no. But .45ACP "felt" more impressive, and it swung sides of beef in a warehouse further than the .38 LC. That means bupkis in terms of producing incapacitation on a violent attacker. Especially when said attacker was highly likely to be on mind-altering narcotics and under the influence of extremist religious fanaticism.
Hell, the .30-40 Krag was noted to have "stopping power" problems against the Moros, and that's 220gr of rifle bullet at ~2000fps.