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Posted: 6/15/2015 11:38:01 AM EDT
[#1]
since i am a new member i cant put more than 2000 words so i am replying to finish my "experiment"
JHP 9mm 115gr Muzzle Velocity: 1225 fps Muzzle Energy: 383 ft. lbs. 40SW180gr Muzzle Velocity: 1010 fps Muzzle Energy: 408 ft. lbs. 45ACP 230gr Muzzle Velocity: 880 fps Muzzle Energy: 396 ft. lbs. Winner of Size= 45ACP who knew! Winner of Velocity=9mm again being this time 215FPS(21%) faster than 40SW and 345FPS(39%) faster than 45 acp Winner of Energy=40SW having 25 (6%) more ft lbs than 9mm and 12(3%) more ft lbs than 45 acp Since JHP is a standard Self-Defense round energy should be a big factor seeing the the 40SW has the most but 45 acp is pretty close to the same ft lbs and 50 more gr but 40 SW is 180fps faster!9mm is faster but not by a amount that makes it the BEST and seeing how it is smaller and packs less of a punch than both of the two it is the loser of JHP so 40SW and 45 acp in JHP have pros and cons the eqaul out but since you can carry more 40SW i think it should be awarded the WINNER again this is all from specs that winchester gives out i just wanted people with actual shooting experince to tell me why it is not popular besides the fact that people so it is snappy so dont call me a idiot or retard i put alot of time into making this "experiment" and i am educated in firearms i just cant sadly shoot in my current situation so give me some feedback because i just spent 2 hours doing this! |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 11:47:13 AM EDT
[#2]
There is no 'better' when it comes to the big three (four if you count .38 SPL.)
What matters is shot placement, and bullet construction designed for personal defense. Both of these are available in 9mm, .40, and .45. My main selection criteria are concealment and reliability. I choose to pocket carry, and I've yet to find a lightweight pocket carry .45 that is reliable and easy enough to shoot during a high-stress encounter. I have a small .40, and it's OK, but is too heavy for pocket carry. I suppose I could keep searching for a lightweight .40, but with ammo selection dwindling, I've moved on. I've settled on a single-action 9mm that fits nicely in my pocket, and has never had a failure of any kind. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 12:59:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Sold all my .40 pistols and NEVER looked back. Enjoy my 9's and 45's by far.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 1:25:56 PM EDT
[#4]
I'm a 45 acp fan. I concur that a .40 can be ballistically better on paper, my first handgun was a .40 for that reason. I just don't find it pleasant to shoot and I cannot shoot it as accurately as I can a nice 45. The recoil is too snappy, while the 45 is smooth and much softer feeling.
After I got my 1911 I sold my 40 and never looked back. I shot my friends hk usp tactical in 40 this weekend and felt the same way. I just shoot the 45 much better. I like the big heavy slow slugs the 45 lobs out there and it is a round that is very proven in effectiveness. It mostly comes down to what I shoot best. "Accuracy is everything." That said my EDC is a 9mm. It is better suited for a small frame pistol. I shoot it almost as well as my full size 1911. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 1:39:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Suppression.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 1:42:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I have barely any experience shooting... ...and....... scene. I don't care what numbers say (and I'm a numbers guy) The bottom line is I can put 5 rounds on target with a 9mm in the time it takes to place 3 rounds of .40SW or .45ACP Also, the 9mm firearm holds more rounds. More hits per unit of time wins. Long live 9mm * I own and/or have owned all of the above. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 1:44:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Nothing to add? Don't post. This isn't GD - Eric802
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Posted: 6/15/2015 1:45:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Because small differences in numbers don't mean anything. Energy, marginal differences in diameter, and bullet weight don't stop attacks. The most important "number" in your carry gun is the capacity.
All guns do - nearly any gun - is poke a relatively small hole in a relatively large person. When you really think about it, that's a pretty crappy way to disable people. Very slightly larger holes don't make any difference. Energy makes no difference. The only way to get a stop is to hit the right place with a bullet that penetrates deep enough. Better to carry a gun that gives you as many chances to do that - quickly - as you can. "But if that's the case why not just carry a .22LR?!?!" Because beyond just hitting right spot, you have to have adequate penetration. A bullet that stops an inch or two from whatever critical structure in the body that you would've hit is essentially useless.Tissue also tends to close up behind the nice clean holes FMJ bullet tend to make. JHPs are jagged and tend to tear tissue. JHPs also tend to penetrate less. Thus, you need to a cartridge that's powerful enough to give that adequate penetration with JHP expansion. That rules out the .22s, .25s, .32s, and .380s as ideal candidates. Additionally, since someone may be attacking you from inside a car, or on the other side of a door, or furniture, whatever, something with the ability to do it's job even after penetrating something like that is a good idea. 9mm will do that. As for the .40 itself? It's a nice cartridge but for a reason I can't explain and don't understand it is in fact snappy. My girlfriend owned one of those Sig P250s with both a .40 S&W and .45 ACP slide assemblies. Exact same gun in both .40 and .45. I couldn't figure it out, but when setup for .40, it was quite a bit snappier. Snappy means slow and slow means lessening your chance to make a solid hit. .40 (and .45) also have less capacity than 9mm so again, less chances. Every round in your gun is a chance to save your life. I have a USP40 now and like it quite a bit. It's the nicest shooting .40 I've shot. It's still much snappier than 9mm though, and holds less ammo. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 2:06:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Your conclusion that the 40SW is better than both is simply wrong. Posting muzzle velocity and energy means very little. Study the history and development of the 40SW and put it up against different bullet designs of different calibers. Look at what the "pro's" use and how they got there. The 40SW got to where it is at largely by politics. IMO, it is a bitch to shoot and the truth is you will always be able to shoot a 45 auto or a 9mm better, whether you are great with a 40SW or terrible with it.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 2:30:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:The most important "number" in your carry gun is the capacity. I respectfully disagree wit this statement. I have looked for years to find cases where a private citizen in a self defense shootout has lost the fight because his magazine had three or four fewer rounds in their magazine. Still looking.... Sure, post up that one-off outlier that isn't even applicable if that justifies it in your (not you in particular) mind. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 2:44:56 PM EDT
[#11]
I carry a 1911 in .45
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Posted: 6/15/2015 2:51:50 PM EDT
[#12]
When I was going to buy my first handgun, I thought .40 would be the bees knees. The perfect compromise, right? I saw it with these criteria: 9mm wins in the capacity department. .45 wins in the big F'n bullet department. .40 is the perfect balance, right? More power than the 9mm, more capacity than the .45. Then I got to shoot them. I can't shoot a .40 worth crap, and the recoil is very uncomfortable. I settled on a 9mm for my first, mainly due to ammo cost, figuring I could buy more of it and learn to shoot better. Then I got a .45. Even though the .45 definitely has more recoil than the 9mm, I find it infinitely more controllable than the .40. Looking at FBI statistics, it seems that the majority of officers also shoot 9mm and 45 better than they shoot 40. Are there people who are studs with a 40? Absolutely. But, take any of those studs with a 40, give them a 9 or a 45, and I bet they shoot just a tad bit better. Most other stuff I see on statistics with regards to defensive shooting, as long as you have at least 8 rounds in your gun, it is highly unlikely you will be reloading in a gun fight. Rule of 3's. Most gun fights take place within 3 feet, with 3 rounds, and is over in 3 seconds.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 3:02:28 PM EDT
[#13]
for all intensive (
 ) purposes, 9mm, 40, and 45 quality hollow point bullets are the same.
But certain rounds do certain things better. 9mm will give you higher ammo capacty, so if thats your main concern, 9mm is probably for you. 40 punches through objects a little better, so if that's important to you, 40 might be for you. 45 is a 'big' bullet that has been a proven round for 100 years, and many say the recoil is less harsh than 40. If big, proven bullet and potentially less harsh recoiling round are important, then 45 might be for you. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 3:35:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
theleadfarmer1911 Joined: Jun 2015 Posts: 1 did you literally join to ask this question >? How does the world "literally" enhance your question at all? I bet you are one of those people who uses "literally" in every sentence. Do yourself and the people around you a favor and literally drop the literally mind numbing verbal crutch that literally makes everyone you speak to literally disregard everything you literally say. See how stupid that sounds? I think people are finally starting to realize something that I have felt for years, Modern 9mm ammo negates the purpose of .40. 9mm or .45, Why fuck around with a halfway solution that gives you the recoil of the big round, negligibly more power than the small round and destroys the 9mm guns it's packaged in. Its a halfassed solution. 9mm, .45, 10mm .... 40 is a waste of fucking time. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 3:45:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I respectfully disagree wit this statement. I have looked for years to find cases where a private citizen in a self defense shootout has lost the fight because his magazine had three or four fewer rounds in their magazine. Still looking.... Sure, post up that one-off outlier that isn't even applicable if that justifies it in your (not you in particular) mind. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:The most important "number" in your carry gun is the capacity. I respectfully disagree wit this statement. I have looked for years to find cases where a private citizen in a self defense shootout has lost the fight because his magazine had three or four fewer rounds in their magazine. Still looking.... Sure, post up that one-off outlier that isn't even applicable if that justifies it in your (not you in particular) mind. Maybe so. If the most "important number" isn't capacity, what is it? Why is it more important? |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 3:51:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Accuracy and ergonomics trump capacity.
Accuracy first because you need to be able to hit what you're shooting at. Ergonomics because you need to be able to hit them before they hit you (if you're fumbling around and have a hard time acquiring targets it will slow you down). Bullet size vs capacity is really just personal preference. Capacity in an auto is not that important to me because of the ease of realoading. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 3:55:21 PM EDT
[#17]
It really comes down to each shooter's personal preference. While there is a difference in energy among the rounds, it isn't huge (what, 25% or so?), and the extra magazine capacity of a 9mm easily makes up for each round having lower muzzle energy than the larger rounds.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 4:14:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe so. If the most "important number" isn't capacity, what is it? Why is it more important? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:The most important "number" in your carry gun is the capacity. I respectfully disagree wit this statement. I have looked for years to find cases where a private citizen in a self defense shootout has lost the fight because his magazine had three or four fewer rounds in their magazine. Still looking.... Sure, post up that one-off outlier that isn't even applicable if that justifies it in your (not you in particular) mind. Maybe so. If the most "important number" isn't capacity, what is it? Why is it more important? You want a rifle caliber- rifle not practical- get the handgun round that's maybe not close, but nearer than the others.
I carry .45acp (1911 or XDs) 10mm (S&W 1076) and shortly .357Sig (P320). I crossed 9mm off the list years ago after I noticed the cycle- 9mm popular, then 9mm fails to stop- panic and rethink- 9mm unpopular, then time passes and people forget, then it starts back at the beginning- 9mm popular.... Right now we're back to popular and the FBI is revisiting it. Eurotrash cartridge. 
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Posted: 6/15/2015 4:38:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Accuracy and ergonomics trump capacity. Accuracy first because you need to be able to hit what you're shooting at. Ergonomics because you need to be able to hit them before they hit you (if you're fumbling around and have a hard time acquiring targets it will slow you down). Bullet size vs capacity is really just personal preference. Capacity in an auto is not that important to me because of the ease of realoading. I respectfully disagree. You can take the least accurate handgun out there and hit the vitals of an attacker at typical gunfight ranges of 10 feet or less, with only marginally less effectiveness than with the most accurate handgun. Reliability is #1. If your gun malfunctions, then caliber, accuracy, ergonomics, magazine capacity - none of these will likely matter. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 5:27:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Punctuation makes all calibers better.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 6:55:08 PM EDT
[#21]
For one thing, I'm reloading too many pistol calibers already. .40 is simply too late to the party and there's no more room.
Things will be bad enough when the .380 Bug finally bites me. I'm already collecting brass, just in case DEET won't keep it off. |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 7:11:29 PM EDT
[#22]
One thing about the .40, ammo is always in stock, at most places, just saying.
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Posted: 6/15/2015 11:42:10 PM EDT
[#23]
By saying better i dont mean it is the best dang round in the world i just eman on a paper stand point is is slightly better but i know that is is very snappy and nobody likes there is a reason noones buys it
just wanted some other people thoughts on the subject |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 11:45:16 PM EDT
[#24]
did you literally join to ask this question >?
How does the world "literally" enhance your question at all? I bet you are one of those people who uses "literally" in every sentence. Do yourself and the people around you a favor and literally drop the literally mind numbing verbal crutch that literally makes everyone you speak to literally disregard everything you literally say. See how stupid that sounds? literally i just literally joined to literally ask the literally question literally no joking |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 11:48:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...and....... scene. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have barely any experience shooting... ...and....... scene. ok me saying barely doesnt mean i havent shot a gun before it just means the beauase sometimes things suck i cant shoot all the time so i am limited but i do know that 40SW is not that go to caliber i just wanted to hear responses |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 11:59:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
By saying better i dont mean it is the best dang round in the world i just mean on a paper stand point is is slightly better but i know that is is very snappy and nobody likes there is a reason noones buys it
just wanted some other people thoughts on the subject I literally had to correct the spelling on that one brother 
It was driving me nuts. I'll level with you, this is a tech forum, and I've seen the mods pull people over for posts like the "literally" one. That's because it's a little bit a long the lines of a personal attack, which is against the CoC here - in GD some of that might fly, but the tech forums are a tight ship, 75 in a 35 will get you pulled over.
As a newbie I too acted like a smartass. SGB (1911 forum mod) took me behind the woodshed, I learned quickly 
and everything was fine after that - but if I were you I'd be a little nicer to the guys whose help/experience you're asking for. As to the caliber question: -It's not "the best" at anything. -Snappy caliber to shoot Those are the 2 most cited, and I'm thinking that's about as complex as it gets. Theoretically, it wears guns down faster. That said I'm mulling over getting a .40 because it's always on the shelves during panics, apparently
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Posted: 6/16/2015 12:59:41 PM EDT
[#27]
.40 is not better. 9=40=45. There is no real discernible difference in real world performance with the advances in bullet technology. I carry a .45 as compensation for having a below average member.
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Posted: 6/16/2015 4:11:29 PM EDT
[#28]
thank you for the advice and spell check! I wasn't trying to be a jerk just making a joke about the literally post.
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Posted: 6/16/2015 7:37:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Is it better ballistically? That's debatable. The reason I shoot it is because guns are cheap and ammo is always available. Advances in design such as the Gen 4 Glock and M&P have lessened the recoil disparity. The .40 has 89% of the capacity of the 9mm and the 9mm has 88% of the expansion of the .40. Nine is fine, but who knows a year from now.
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Posted: 6/17/2015 7:18:49 AM EDT
[#30]
Oh now you gone and done it!
Check out the shooting bull's test on the subject. 9mm < .45 when it comes to terminal effects, with standard pressure ammo. While the debate over 9mm vs .45 may never end, when it comes to the .40 I just do t care. If I wanted something like that I would carry a 10mm w/full power ammo, or .460 Rowland. P.S. "Better" is subjective. |
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Posted: 6/17/2015 7:32:52 AM EDT
[#31]
.40 works great.... But it's more about the indian than the arrow
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Posted: 6/19/2015 9:37:05 PM EDT
[#32]
All I know is I have a FNP .45 with a EFK barrel. 17+1, and I can put all 18 rounds in a 2" circle at 12 yds in just under 4 seconds, and hit a 8" steel 18 times at 25 yds in 6 seconds.
Good enough for me. Of course the target isn't moving |
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Posted: 6/22/2015 12:40:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I know is I have a FNP .45 with a EFK barrel. 17+1, and I can put all 18 rounds in a 2" circle at 12 yds in just under 4 seconds, and hit a 8" steel 18 times at 25 yds in 6 seconds. Good enough for me. Of course the target isn't moving Does that include drawing? That's pretty impressive, you wouldn't happen to have a video of that would you? |
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Posted: 6/22/2015 8:14:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does that include drawing? That's pretty impressive, you wouldn't happen to have a video of that would you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All I know is I have a FNP .45 with a EFK barrel. 17+1, and I can put all 18 rounds in a 2" circle at 12 yds in just under 4 seconds, and hit a 8" steel 18 times at 25 yds in 6 seconds. Good enough for me. Of course the target isn't moving Does that include drawing? That's pretty impressive, you wouldn't happen to have a video of that would you? This. Forgive me, but printing a 2" group at 12 yards with a .45 ACP and faster-than .22 splits is frankly something I'd need to see to believe. |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 10:37:20 AM EDT
[#35]
40 is a compromise.
Not everyone thinks that bullet diameter doesn't matter. Capacity is an advantage. 40 offers a "bigger bullet" with only a small decrease in capacity. Recoil may be "snappy" compared to 9mm but the actual difference in my 2nd shot times with a Glock 19 and +p vs a Glock 23 is about three or four hundredths (.04) of a second. Comparing HST recovered diameters, 45 is biggest, then 40, then 9mm; diameter might not matter, or maybe it could. Capacity might not matter, or maybe it could. Compromise with a 40. (I've carried 45, 40, 357 Sig, and 9mm - Glock 32 (357 Sig) currently. |
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Posted: 6/24/2015 8:15:42 PM EDT
[#36]
I think that there are a few implicit assumption here:
Assumption 1) there is one 'best'. IMO there is no perfect 'one size fits all' solution and 2) there is one set of ballistic numbers for all 9mm, 40sw 45 etc. Recognizing that there are limitations with not only with your gear but your skills is reality. I usually carry a p229 in 375 sig which has spectacular energy numbers on paper but its not necessarily better. Depending on the bullet type 375sig has great penetration but compared to some 45 bullets the 45 might dump more kinetic energy into the target even if the muzzle energy for 375sig is higher....which leads to the second assumption. There is not one set of numbers for each round and there are countless different loads for each caliber. The numbers Buffalo Bore handgun ammo is considerably higher than what you post there. Energy is also a function of mass and velocity so engagement distance is also important to think about and different barrel lengths will yield different velocities too. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:39:41 PM EDT
[#37]
I agree with those who say there isn't any one "best" round.
For myself, I prefer .45 and carry an M&P off duty. Recoil is more of a push rather than a kick, so follow-up shots aren't really difficult. And if I can't do what I need to do with 15 rounds of .45, 17 rounds of 9mm or .40 aren't going to do it either. Don' remember where I read this, but it sums up my take on the whole discussion: A 9mm or .40 may expand in the target, but it is an undeniable fact that a .45 will never shrink. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:33:12 PM EDT
[#38]
This is a technical forum. If you want to talk about your dick, post in GD - Eric802
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Posted: 6/25/2015 8:16:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Simple answer is that hits count. I can't shoot a glock 23 worth a crap but can produce one-hole groups with my 1911 in .45. My EDC is a glock 26 and I'd rather hit my target center of mass with 9mm than not with a .40... My G26 is freakishly accurate at CCW ranges. I shot patterns, not groups with my G23...
1DD |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:00:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Ignore all those charts of numbers. All "service" calibers work the same in the real world against bad guys.
Study anatomy, not "ballistics". |
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Posted: 6/27/2015 4:09:20 PM EDT
[#41]
.40-loving guy: "The .40 gives more rounds than a .45 and bigger bullets than a 9mm, so it's the only thing that makes sense."
.40-hating 9mm guy: "The .40 gives less rounds than my gun, without giving you the big bullet of a .45, so how does the .40 make sense..?" .40-hating .45 guy: "The .40 has neither the bullet mass of my gun, nor the capacity of a 9mm, so how does the .40 make sense..?" Unemotional guy: "Yep. But come to think of it, every one of those calibers is more powerful than my dad's .32-20 deer gun. And improved ammo performance in all those calibers over the decades has made them even more terminally effective than dad's old deer gun. So I suppose that means that any of them are probably acceptable as long as the shooter is competent." |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 10:33:09 PM EDT
[#42]
I shoot my 40 just fine. Yeah, recoil takes getting used to, but with practice it's no issue.
Oh, and you can find ammo when there are ammo runs in other calibers. You can also buy a 9mm or 357 sig barrel for it in most cases. I have a 9mm barrel to use in my SigPro 2340. |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 10:52:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sold all my .40 pistols and NEVER looked back. Enjoy my 9's and 45's by far. Ditto. .40 serves zero purpose in my handgun collection. .22, 9mm, .38/.357, .45......that's it, the end. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 7:57:04 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.22, 9mm, .38/.357, .45......that's it, the end. Strangely, that's exactly the same calibers I have in my handgun armory. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 8:14:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Your English teacher is crying. (Or if you prefer) i think your english teacher is crying and i like run on sentences and other people on the internet are squinting at my prose and i should have made a youtube video i think and i think a paragraph is too graphs side by side
j/k It is a compromise round and an OK police caliber. Although who cares? 90% of police demand very little from their guns. Police guns are are shot very little, and typically after 5 years they go back out on the civilian market because of the phenomenal deals that manufacturers give PDs. Forty is a hot round that does not really offer more than 9mm in terms of penetration and wounding, but DOES offer more recoil and wear on the gun. .45 of course is a classic, has great accuracy and it's a historical round. Forty was a great way to get police 9mm magazines back from PDs so gun makers could sell them at a premium to the (screwed) public after the 1994 "AWB". In short, lots of compromise ideas (multi-role military aircraft, minivans, your typical political candidate) basically do the job and bean counters like them, but experts don't because they tend to do nothing well. .40 is kind of in that category. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 9:49:28 AM EDT
[#46]
Strangely, Delta is using the .40.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 10:56:55 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Strangely, Delta is using the .40. Cite? |
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Posted: 7/2/2015 1:25:27 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Strangely Briefly, Delta is using used the .40. FIFY |
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Posted: 7/2/2015 1:32:23 AM EDT
[#49]
.40 sucks. It was an answer to a problem that did not exist. If you go that caliber go all the way to 10mm and forget the the 40 short and weak. Have I tried it? Yes, 9mm, 40, 10mm, and 45acp. No need for the .40. I turn 40 brass into 357 sig so I can use cheaper 9mm bullets and get real performance out of that case.
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Posted: 7/3/2015 3:40:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.40-loving guy: "The .40 gives more rounds than a .45 and bigger bullets than a 9mm, so it's the only thing that makes sense." .40-hating 9mm guy: "The .40 gives less rounds than my gun, without giving you the big bullet of a .45, so how does the .40 make sense..?" .40-hating .45 guy: "The .40 has neither the bullet mass of my gun, nor the capacity of a 9mm, so how does the .40 make sense..?" Unemotional guy: "Yep. But come to think of it, every one of those calibers is more powerful than my dad's .32-20 deer gun. And improved ammo performance in all those calibers over the decades has made them even more terminally effective than dad's old deer gun. So I suppose that means that any of them are probably acceptable as long as the shooter is competent." Rational guy: Every one of those calibers works the same on the street, and "improved ammo performance" is almost entirely advertising hype. And every one is a pipsqueak compared to a rifle or shotgun. Any of them are acceptable as long as the shooter is competent. |
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