What are you saying, exactly?  That you use obsolete hollow points because their technological successors don't incapacitate when non-vital areas are hit?  You say you don't doubt that modern HP designs are effective, so why do you choose not to use them?  

Liberty Defense?

So, why develop a new round?

No, all I'm saying is that there are guys who literally say 115 +p+ rounds are ineffective and say they are obsolete. Obsolete in what way? They work today as they did 30-40 years ago. The same way the modern loads do.  They end the problem.
They are all prone to failure the same. When someone says the round is ineffective just because it is a 40 year old design, I often ask if they are willing to take a hit from one in a shooting scenario if the bad guy is so armed. The first reaction I get is pretty much a " fuck no". If the round is so obsolete and ineffective, why is it still feared? If you're afraid enough to get hit by one  then the other guy is in the same boat.

In other words, I have no problem carrying any of the loads listed because I am more than confident in them due to seeing actual results, not from clinical tests. I will put them where they need to go.
Right now, the biggest tragedy for me is I am forced to carry 147 Ranger T. At first, I was not comfortable, but as I researched actual use, I found out its a pretty good round. I had seen bad results from the original 147 loads years ago and the weight left a bad taste in my mouth, so I wasn't too happy. I still would not want to be hit by one of the old 147 rounds no matter what, but if I had to carry it, I would learn all I could.
Myself and another officer actually created as close to a human torso as we could with fresh meat ribs, whoopee cusions for lungs and a cow heart. We used gel for the rest. A trash can was used as a mold. We learned a little how the rounds would react. The only factor that could not be measured was the actual pain response and real persons reaction to the hit. We realized it was done in fun and did at least get to see the results.
Eerily, they matched some of the actual photos of expanded rounds and tissue damage we had seen.
We blew close to 100 bucks in edible meat. :(
We learned though that no bullet was consistent, even three rounds from the same box performed differently.
I have the notes of that in my shelves somewhere.
I will tell you though that one of the most destructive rounds was the Speer gold dot 115 +p+. Looked like a grenade went off inside. Would that round have done a one shot stop? I honestly can't tell you 100% every time.
Some rounds that failed miserably were rem 147 golden Sabre and Winchester 147 white box JHP.
The Remington value pack 115 JHP performed very well.
Again it was more of a fun project than anything else.

$$$$$$$$$$ and bragging rights.
It's what drives all these companies to come out with the exotic rounds.
The black Talon was a promising round, but after it was discontinued, there was a pause on the 147 weight development for a few years. 115 and 124 became the rage. 147 benefited from the technology used for the lighter bullets and that is what has made them effective.
They suffered due to low velocity, period.  
Velocity is needed for expansion.

Either way, use what you have. Have your skills sharpened and expect a handgun round to perform or fail as it is known that a handgun is not a 100% effective bolt of lightning.

That is not necessarily true. Improvements in jacket design have mitigated the need for increased velocity. Hence the reason SD loads are working better in shorter barrels.

Also, velocity of the Black Talon and the Ranger T are very close.

So that's why Speer came out with a +p short barreled load? Guess they felt velocity was needed for the short barrel loads for expansion then?
Black Talon was running below advertised speeds on the crony back then. Very inconsistent.
Today's loads are way more consistent velocity wise.

 
The 115 grain +P+ load is obsolete in that it is no longer preferred and has been replaced.  The same can be said about FMJs, LRNs, LFNs, round balls, wadcutters, etc.  Just because they are no longer cutting edge technology doesn't mean they are ineffective.  The "I wouldn't want to be shot with it" argument is meaningless because fear does not physiologically incapacitate.  


Ranger T is the direct descendant of Black Talon/SXT.  The meplat geometry was changed a small amount, but it is essentially the same bullet.  The best performing 9mm bullets today are 147 grains, and they are good, consistent performers, especially through barriers.  There is never going to be a bullet, rifle or pistol, that guarantees a one shot stop in a timely fashion, but there is no reason not to use all the tools available to you.

 
It is needed because of the design parameters of the bullet.  

The testing I have seen for Black Talon shows velocity in line with Ranger T. The issue with Black Talon and other rounds of the time was jacket design.

Pentration standards exist because you never know what will be between your pistol and the vitals. You may have to shoot through the arms to reach the vitals. or barriers like glass, steel, wallboard, ect.

The "modern" rounds are designed to reliably expand AND pentrate inspite of such barriers.  Not to improve the performance of a peripheral hit.

Testing you have seen.. Is that on the internet , in person or on paper. We ran them thru a chronograph and they were all running in the 870-890's range. That was from a distance of  3 feet to the chronograph. We saw it and didn't even proceed to try and adopt it. We also ran the .45 thru and it was doing what it should have. Maybe we got a bad batch, but when we spoke to the Winchester rep, he said it was probably a fluke.
No attempt was made to even try and research the round by the rep. Our confidence in Winchester was done.
We also ran federal 124 and 147 Hydra-Shoks and  115 +p Corbons. They were also doing advertised velocity. Our captain was adamant that we carry 147 , but the regular "Subsonic" rounds were causing stoppages in otherwise reliable pistols. This was Beretta, Glock, SiG, metal framed SW, and Ruger P-89's
The problems went away when using Federal loads in 115 and 124 weight.
He didn't care as he had bought a few thousand rounds of the 147 subsonic  at a good price. To us it meant that no one wanted them and the company. dumped them on us. His 92FS ran it ok, but some others didn't. We later found out he was giving 115 grain silver tips to his favorites.
He got pissed and told us to buy our own. Myself and a group got together and purchased Federal 124 grain Hydra-Shoks.
They served us well and confidence was high in that round.
Then BP gave us some BPLE since we would assist them and back them up. We loved that round and it was extremely accurate.

It was meant sarcastically since it was said jacket design has mitigated the need for velocity , where I said you need velocity for consistent expansion. He said the loads are working better out of short barrels, yet they made a specific load for short barrels increasing velocity to ensure expansion.

True,I agree that is why modern loads exist, but I will go on what I have seen personally and seen in actual street cases.

Sounds like anecdote and drama.

How about 971 fps?

Interesting.

Just because their velocity exceeded doesn't mean ours was flawed. There were millions of rounds produced. Different lots. You are pulling other peoples testing. That's fine, but our own testing on the range was different. These velocities were obtained from  5 different guns and all were producing the same.
A Beretta 92FS, a Glock 17, SW 5906, and a Sig 226. Five rounds from each string.  The 5th gun was a SW 6906. This was 20 years ago.
I will look for my briefcase which I know has the notes from the testing we did. We were very disappointed in the velocity numbers and we also did fire some in a 55 gallon drum of water. We saw the expansion which was not totally bad for a few rounds, but some did not achieve full expansion.
When we ran the other loads including the +p+, we saw expansion and fragmentation. Being in the new age of bullet testing, we went with what we felt was the better rounds. We felt that expansion and fragmentation were going to cause more tissue damage than a un expanded round. As one guy who was in desert storm put it, " I want the thing to act like a grenade and fragment."
The +P Corbons round failed to expand in the water twice. It self destructed into pieces. We went with what we saw and learned. I realize that the time has brought advances, but I still would not feel under armed with a simple JHP.

Dupe post

Fragmentation does nothing to incapacitate and only serves to reduce retained weight. It's one reason the 9BPLE isn't a great round.

By your own opinion.. I know the effectiveness thanks to the OIS statistics from the agencies that utilized this round. You cannot provide anything other than youtube videos and bersa chat forum. Apparently you have not done any experiments of your own either, if not you might have mentioned it by now.
Either way, I have read and seen what works on actual records, not on the internet. If that was the case I would being bowing at the altar of the jello junkies.
Carry what you want, but don't expect the round to be a magic bullet.
Like you asked me to show data , show me something other than you find on the internet that shows BPLE isn't a great round like you say.

I've shown data. You've shown nothing.

I said BPLE data, not Black Talon data.

I will find my data on all the rounds I tested over the years. I don't need to post it on the internet for it to be taken as gospel. I know what I have done and what experiments we have done.
Now the testing we did with .38 special  was just as good. We really learned a lot. .38special was actually the second most carried round in our department as almost half carried revolvers in 1993 when I started.

This sums up 9BPLE nicely. Again, from DocGKR. A guy who's tested a lot more ammo than you or I.

Speer's short barrel loads are the same pressure as their standard barrel loads.  The HP is deeper and more squared off which makes it open at lower velocities.

If anybody has any of this so called "obsolete" ammunition laying around, I will gladly take it off your hands and use it as carry ammo. And i will sleep well at night.

deleted

My favorite is the Blackhills 124gr. +P XTP @ 1200fps. The Winchester 127gr. +P+ Ranger T and Speers 124gr. +P GDHP are also at the top of my list. I carry the Blackhills XTP's because I find them to be the most accurate round with my 9mm Glocks.

This will go on forever.

Anything you pick may fail.

Probably not much difference between the top loads.

I was required to use a 9mm.   I use the CorBon 115 gr.   Goes 1260 fps from a G26.   I have killed varmints with this bullet and know the wound it makes.  

The HST looks good to me.   Might try some.

If you are really  worried, switch to a 4 inch 357 Magnum and 125 gr HP ammo.

Not really sure you can trust the jell-o tests but people sure seem to put a lot of faith in them.

I think the gelatin testing is useful in generating relatively comparable data on the terminal characteristics of a particular bullet/load and allowing for comparison with other bullets/loadings. It is not infallable nor is it 100% consistent, just the closest we have since we can't shoot actual people. It still is only good enough for a rough idea of how the bullet may perform some of the time and gauge consistence. All bullets, even the best, do strange things sometimes. There are simply too many factors that come in to play.

As long as people realize that no bullet is perfect or 100% reliable and that pistols in general are poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber. It always makes me when I hear about "energy dump" or "shock transfer" in regards to pistol cartridges.

There's plenty out there -- ammoseek.com

its all currently +P though



 

Like everyone else said.





I'm not one to jump on bandwagons but HST is an awesome round. The Critical Defense does expand like crazy but from test Ive seen it under penetrates.
I know many guys knock the Hornady Critical Duty but I think they are great if you want something that will penetrate more than HST,Ranger,Gold dot