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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:01:21 AM EDT
[#1]
If you want the science behind which are the most effective rounds go here. You will find that the hydra shocks aren't on the list, and haven't been for a long time.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:04:21 AM EDT
[#2]
Neither. They both suck.
124gr +P Gold Dots or 147gr HST depending on the season. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:11:29 AM EDT
[#3]
I'd sell what you have stockpiled and buy HSTs or Gold dots. Just my opinion.
Any particular reason you went with those rounds? |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:16:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Two words...
bullet placement. (Without good marksmanship no "scientifically superior" bullet matters) |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:42:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. They both suck. 124gr +P Gold Dots or 147gr HST depending on the season. THIS |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:55:35 AM EDT
[#6]
hydra shoks are ok i guess, if you consider 1990's hollow point design to be satisfactory
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:20:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. They both suck. 124gr +P Gold Dots or 147gr HST depending on the season. He's right, you know meme... |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:46:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Thanks all.
Only one comment regarding shot placement...... AMEN! When all is said and done, it is still just a pistol round As far as having the two rounds, been using Hydra Shoks for years. Once as an EMT saw first hand what they did to someone wearing a vest. The Critical Defense rounds were recommended I like the low flash and velocity from short barrel aspects. Thanks for the reminder to check out the ammo oracle.. FWIW, been using Gold Dot in 357 for a while. I am by no means married to any . My stash is by no means sell off worthy, usually keep a couple hundred of each carry / SD pistol round. I usually shoot what I am carrying when I practice then reload the magazines before I leave the range. R/ Mike Quote HistoryQuoted:
Two words... bullet placement. (Without good marksmanship no "scientifically superior" bullet matters) |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:54:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. They both suck. 124gr +P Gold Dots or 147gr HST depending on the season. This. I also use standard pressure 124 Gold Dots and 147+p HST. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 12:02:03 PM EDT
[#10]
So you're the reason Hydra Shoks are still sold at Walmart. Do you carry them in your Walther P38 to keep the technology handicap alive?
Ditch that shit and get rounds that work well, such as Gold Dots or Federal HST. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 12:11:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Only one comment regarding shot placement, AMEN! As far as having the two rounds, been using Hydra Shoks for years, saw first hand what they did to someone wearing a vest. For the Critical Defense rounds, I like the low flash aspect. I am by no means married to either round IF I can find something PROVEN to be more effective for my needs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Only one comment regarding shot placement, AMEN! As far as having the two rounds, been using Hydra Shoks for years, saw first hand what they did to someone wearing a vest. For the Critical Defense rounds, I like the low flash aspect. I am by no means married to either round IF I can find something PROVEN to be more effective for my needs. Quoted: Two words... bullet placement. (Without good marksmanship no "scientifically superior" bullet matters) They're both poor choices. The hydra shok is 30 year old technology and the critical defense is relatively new. They both fail at barrier tests. This doesn't mean that they fail to penetrate barriers, but that they fail to act as hollow points after passing through barriers. Read through the ammo oracle for recommended loads. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 12:15:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Good luck finding any 147gr HST's...
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Posted: 5/12/2015 12:26:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Generally for pistol caliber rounds, the middle range weight bullet driven at the highest velocity has the widest performance envelope .
For 9mm, that works out to be a ~124 grain bullet at 1200+fps After that, it comes down to bullet design and shooter ability |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 12:29:13 PM EDT
[#14]
I keep Gold Dots in my carry guns.
It is a happy little name. Prosecutors can't scare people on a jury like they can with hydrashock or Extreme or any other hyperbole type name. There may be better hollow points out there but unless they are given a cuter name than gold dot I'm not carrying them. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 1:00:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Guess I will start shopping for Gold Dots....
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Posted: 5/12/2015 1:31:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Gold Dots and HSTs are both good. I use the Winchester Ranger T which is also good.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 3:28:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want the science behind which are the most effective rounds go here. You will find that the hydra shocks aren't on the list, and haven't been for a long time. THANK YOU, SIR FOR THIS POST!! I have been looking for this info for a long time with out really knowing it existed  . It is an excellent compilation of a ton of info. Thank you, and all of those who have contributed to this "magnum opus"
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Posted: 5/12/2015 4:50:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck finding any 147gr HST's... |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 7:36:56 PM EDT
[#19]
You're running two of the worst rounds money can buy. Suggest you watch ammo quest on youtube. Long story short, federal hst and winchester ranger t are the best, followed closely by gold dots.
Out of the two you're running, I suppose the Hornady is the better round, but it's by no means a great round. Your OP states you don't want to hear about any rounds but these two, quite a match up you've put forth... |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:19:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you're the reason Hydra Shoks are still sold at Walmart. Do you carry them in your Walther P38 to keep the technology handicap alive? Ditch that shit and get rounds that work well, such as Gold Dots or Federal HST. Once upon a time, they WERE the shit. |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 12:12:46 AM EDT
[#21]
FEDERAL HST 147... One & Done!!
Low Recoil from standard pressure 9mm (not a +P or +P+) Excellent terminal performance on both bare and denim tests. If you are going to shoot 9mm, I'd recommend the minimum weight of either 124 or 147 for serious defense. 115 is not as effective due to expansion and penetration issues. BIGGER_HAMMER 
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Posted: 5/13/2015 12:12:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck finding any 147gr HST's... SGAmmo.com - They get em' in regularly. Sign up for their notification if they're out of stock. |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 12:18:00 AM EDT
[#23]
Pick one that functions the best... Or.. Just pick one. There are no magic Bullets ! Enjoy shooting them over time and don't worry about not having the latest craze. Yes. Gold dots have a better reputation as do some others but none of them are guaranteed 1 shot stops. NONE !
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Posted: 5/13/2015 12:38:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. They both suck. 124gr +P Gold Dots or 147gr HST depending on the season. This... My preference is for the 147 HST out of those two. I should be getting my order of them in sometime this week! |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 2:36:40 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I am carrying a G19 and S&W Shield, I have been using the 115grn Critical Defense rounds for the 9mm Shield since they are low flash and made for the shorter barrel. I have always carried 124grn Hydra Shoks in my G19, for years now. Sunday my wife asked why we have two different rounds? They both cycle perfectly in both guns and the gel tests all look to be satisfactory. So out of these two rounds any reason to dump one or the other? Just curious. Really not interested in hearing about Gold Dots, PDX or any of the others, all fine effective ammunition but would like to focus discussion on the two rounds I have stock piled so far... Thanks. Well, both are shitty rounds: -- The Critical Defense is too light and was designed to underpenetrate. -- The Hydrashock is an old Gen II HP that has poor probability of expansion, and often under-expands or doesn't open up at all. Of the two the HS is the much better round, since it actually can penetrate enough to hit the vitals. Gold Dots, HST, Winchester PDX/Ranger-B, and Win Ranger-T all outperform either of them, and actually meet the IWBA penetration/expansion criteria. |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 3:08:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck finding any 147gr HST's... This thread has helped me get HSTs twice so far. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_20/156761_Where_the_hell_is_all_the_147gr_HST__.html |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 9:30:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks all. Only one comment regarding shot placement...... AMEN! When all is said and done, it is still just a pistol round As far as having the two rounds, been using Hydra Shoks for years. Once as an EMT saw first hand what they did to someone wearing a vest. The Critical Defense rounds were recommended I like the low flash and velocity from short barrel aspects. Thanks for the reminder to check out the ammo oracle.. FWIW, been using Gold Dot in 357 for a while. I am by no means married to any . My stash is by no means sell off worthy, usually keep a couple hundred of each carry / SD pistol round. I usually shoot what I am carrying when I practice then reload the magazines before I leave the range. R/ Mike Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks all. Only one comment regarding shot placement...... AMEN! When all is said and done, it is still just a pistol round As far as having the two rounds, been using Hydra Shoks for years. Once as an EMT saw first hand what they did to someone wearing a vest. The Critical Defense rounds were recommended I like the low flash and velocity from short barrel aspects. Thanks for the reminder to check out the ammo oracle.. FWIW, been using Gold Dot in 357 for a while. I am by no means married to any . My stash is by no means sell off worthy, usually keep a couple hundred of each carry / SD pistol round. I usually shoot what I am carrying when I practice then reload the magazines before I leave the range. R/ Mike Quoted:
Two words... Hydra shows were the heat way back when.... So was a colt peacemaker back I its time. Technology evolves- wouldn't you want to protect your family with the best possible tools? Shot placement is crucial, but a well designed round helps bullet placement. (Without good marksmanship no "scientifically superior" bullet matters) |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 2:01:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck finding any 147gr HST's... I always laugh my ass off at post like this. There are about 10 auctions on Gunbroker right now for 147gr HST. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 2:31:16 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always laugh my ass off at post like this. There are about 10 auctions on Gunbroker right now for 147gr HST. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good luck finding any 147gr HST's... I always laugh my ass off at post like this. There are about 10 auctions on Gunbroker right now for 147gr HST. Not to mention ammunition depot has them in stock right now as well... |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:14:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to mention ammunition depot has them in stock right now as well... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Good luck finding any 147gr HST's... I always laugh my ass off at post like this. There are about 10 auctions on Gunbroker right now for 147gr HST. Not to mention ammunition depot has them in stock right now as well... |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:15:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. They both suck. 124gr +P Gold Dots or 147gr HST depending on the season. This. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 9:28:18 PM EDT
[#32]
Unless the human body has magically evolved in the last 30 years, Hydra-Shok and any other load will still make you non-existent in this world. The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE.
I have personal knowledge on how the 124 grain Hydra -Shok performs and would not feel inadequate with it. True.. The HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot are great advances, but do not underestimate the use of the other rounds. They are more than adequate for civilian use as the newer rounds are designed for LE applications, which is something civilians will rarely encounter. Anytime someone starts bashing rounds, I ask them if they would be willing to take a round to prove the rounds are truly crap, I always get a "Hell No!!" Funny how they are scared to take a center of mass hit from a lowly 115 Winchester or Remington JHP for fear of not making it, yet they need these super advanced rounds for bad guys? Are the good guys bodies more fragile? 
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Posted: 5/15/2015 10:01:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless the human body has magically evolved in the last 30 years, Hydra-Shok and any other load will still make you non-existent in this world. The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. I have personal knowledge on how the 124 grain Hydra -Shok performs and would not feel inadequate with it. True.. The HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot are great advances, but do not underestimate the use of the other rounds. They are more than adequate for civilian use as the newer rounds are designed for LE applications, which is something civilians will rarely encounter. Anytime someone starts bashing rounds, I ask them if they would be willing to take a round to prove the rounds are truly crap, I always get a "Hell No!!" Funny how they are scared to take a center of mass hit from a lowly 115 Winchester or Remington JHP for fear of not making it, yet they need these super advanced rounds for bad guys? Are the good guys bodies more fragile? |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 10:46:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't want to be shot with a staple gun. Doesn't make it adequate for defensive use. Hydra shok will at best expand modestly, at worst act like Fmj. Civilian-grade, if you call it that, is leaps and bounds above what the military uses and equal to or better than what the police use. There is no reason that a person legally carrying a firearm should handicap themselves by carrying inferior ammunition, especially when the cost difference is essentially non existent. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unless the human body has magically evolved in the last 30 years, Hydra-Shok and any other load will still make you non-existent in this world. The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. I have personal knowledge on how the 124 grain Hydra -Shok performs and would not feel inadequate with it. True.. The HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot are great advances, but do not underestimate the use of the other rounds. They are more than adequate for civilian use as the newer rounds are designed for LE applications, which is something civilians will rarely encounter. Anytime someone starts bashing rounds, I ask them if they would be willing to take a round to prove the rounds are truly crap, I always get a "Hell No!!" Funny how they are scared to take a center of mass hit from a lowly 115 Winchester or Remington JHP for fear of not making it, yet they need these super advanced rounds for bad guys? Are the good guys bodies more fragile? What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 11:37:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. Here is what Doc had to say about it. 9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing. There are NUMEROUS better loads available today |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 12:01:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't want to be shot with a staple gun. Doesn't make it adequate for defensive use. Hydra shok will at best expand modestly, at worst act like Fmj. Civilian-grade, if you call it that, is leaps and bounds above what the military uses and equal to or better than what the police use. There is no reason that a person legally carrying a firearm should handicap themselves by carrying inferior ammunition, especially when the cost difference is essentially non existent. What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 12:10:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is what Doc had to say about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. Here is what Doc had to say about it. 9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing. There are NUMEROUS better loads available today I'll go with actual street results by multiple law enforcement agencies. Gelatin testing is fine and dandy under controlled conditions, but real life situations trumps the gel blocks any day. I personally saw a .45 Black Talon that went thru the rear window of a 90's ford Bronco thru the seat upholstery of the rear seat and enter and exit the perps chest crosswise to come to rest on the floorboard perfectly mushroomed. Fibers from seat and perps clothing hanging on the petal edges in blood. Range was about 20 yards and two of the perps were shooting 9MMs at the Deputy. Pretty damn good. This was in 95. Old technology that would probably have acted the same way today under similar circumstances. By the same token....I saw a perp take 4 hits from Remington 185 +P .45 at less than 7 yards and sit up like nothing while EMS tended to him. He was wearing a t shirt. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 12:50:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll go with actual street results by multiple law enforcement agencies. Gelatin testing is fine and dandy under controlled conditions, but real life situations trumps the gel blocks any day. I personally saw a .45 Black Talon that went thru the rear window of a 90's ford Bronco thru the seat upholstery of the rear seat and enter and exit the perps chest crosswise to come to rest on the floorboard perfectly mushroomed. Fibers from seat and perps clothing hanging on the petal edges in blood. Range was about 20 yards and two of the perps were shooting 9MMs at the Deputy. Pretty damn good. This was in 95. Old technology that would probably have acted the same way today under similar circumstances. By the same token....I saw a perp take 4 hits from Remington 185 +P .45 at less than 7 yards and sit up like nothing while EMS tended to him. He was wearing a t shirt. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. Here is what Doc had to say about it. 9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing. There are NUMEROUS better loads available today I'll go with actual street results by multiple law enforcement agencies. Gelatin testing is fine and dandy under controlled conditions, but real life situations trumps the gel blocks any day. I personally saw a .45 Black Talon that went thru the rear window of a 90's ford Bronco thru the seat upholstery of the rear seat and enter and exit the perps chest crosswise to come to rest on the floorboard perfectly mushroomed. Fibers from seat and perps clothing hanging on the petal edges in blood. Range was about 20 yards and two of the perps were shooting 9MMs at the Deputy. Pretty damn good. This was in 95. Old technology that would probably have acted the same way today under similar circumstances. By the same token....I saw a perp take 4 hits from Remington 185 +P .45 at less than 7 yards and sit up like nothing while EMS tended to him. He was wearing a t shirt. Please share this data. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 9:06:46 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unless the human body has magically evolved in the last 30 years, Hydra-Shok and any other load will still make you non-existent in this world. The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. I have personal knowledge on how the 124 grain Hydra -Shok performs and would not feel inadequate with it. True.. The HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot are great advances, but do not underestimate the use of the other rounds. They are more than adequate for civilian use as the newer rounds are designed for LE applications, which is something civilians will rarely encounter. Anytime someone starts bashing rounds, I ask them if they would be willing to take a round to prove the rounds are truly crap, I always get a "Hell No!!" Funny how they are scared to take a center of mass hit from a lowly 115 Winchester or Remington JHP for fear of not making it, yet they need these super advanced rounds for bad guys? Are the good guys bodies more fragile? What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. Then you should just use fmjs. They're cheaper for someone with your mentality. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 9:25:16 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please share this data. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. Here is what Doc had to say about it. 9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing. There are NUMEROUS better loads available today I'll go with actual street results by multiple law enforcement agencies. Gelatin testing is fine and dandy under controlled conditions, but real life situations trumps the gel blocks any day. I personally saw a .45 Black Talon that went thru the rear window of a 90's ford Bronco thru the seat upholstery of the rear seat and enter and exit the perps chest crosswise to come to rest on the floorboard perfectly mushroomed. Fibers from seat and perps clothing hanging on the petal edges in blood. Range was about 20 yards and two of the perps were shooting 9MMs at the Deputy. Pretty damn good. This was in 95. Old technology that would probably have acted the same way today under similar circumstances. By the same token....I saw a perp take 4 hits from Remington 185 +P .45 at less than 7 yards and sit up like nothing while EMS tended to him. He was wearing a t shirt. Please share this data. I just did. The Sergeant who was involved in this was my patrol Supervisor. I saw the end results of this. Back then, the forensics was not like today. No one measured the expanded diameter of the round and the autopsy report is who knows where now. It's been 20 years. This is my old department. It was declared a good shoot and life went on. He passed from cancer 3 years ago. The second shooting involved the city police. I was a Sheriffs Deputy, so I did not have access to the after action reports. I responded to the call for assistance and saw the bad guy sitting up on his own on the curb while the EMT's were tending to him. Obese and drunk, he was still being belligerent. Bloody t-shirt lying on ground next to him. I was good friends with the firearms instructor, so I knew what they were carrying. Two rounds to the stomach area one to the shoulder and the last one right below the right nipple. He survived. I was then transferred to the jail a few months later as my road time was up. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 9:37:29 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then you should just use fmjs. They're cheaper for someone with your mentality. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unless the human body has magically evolved in the last 30 years, Hydra-Shok and any other load will still make you non-existent in this world. The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. I have personal knowledge on how the 124 grain Hydra -Shok performs and would not feel inadequate with it. True.. The HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot are great advances, but do not underestimate the use of the other rounds. They are more than adequate for civilian use as the newer rounds are designed for LE applications, which is something civilians will rarely encounter. Anytime someone starts bashing rounds, I ask them if they would be willing to take a round to prove the rounds are truly crap, I always get a "Hell No!!" Funny how they are scared to take a center of mass hit from a lowly 115 Winchester or Remington JHP for fear of not making it, yet they need these super advanced rounds for bad guys? Are the good guys bodies more fragile? What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. Then you should just use fmjs. They're cheaper for someone with your mentality. The mentality of using only the "most modern" hollowpoints is far worse. Please understand, I am saying it does not matter what is used, shot placement is king in shooting situations. Some people think that "Golden Bullet" will somehow make up for their lack of accuracy. I have heard it first hand from both civilians and officers on the range. They think carrying rounds like extreme shock or the other exotic rounds will finish the job with one shot. This thinking of "Oh, one round will put them down." Will get people hurt. I teach double taps like a lot of other people and I make people I train shoot a whole box of their precious hollow points thru their gun. I get the bitching and moaning that the rounds are too expensive to do that. I have had multiple issues with students guns and their chosen defense rounds. One LC9 would feed anything put in it, while another had issues with 124 grain HST. Little gun would not feed them. We tried different magazines, grip, download a round...etc. this was their department duty round and he could not use it. It ran 147 and 115 just fine. It ran 124 Gold dots better, but it hated 124.. We swapped barrels and still it would not feed. Anyway, i got off path. Shot placement is above all else. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 10:45:51 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just did. The Sergeant who was involved in this was my patrol Supervisor. I saw the end results of this. Back then, the forensics was not like today. No one measured the expanded diameter of the round and the autopsy report is who knows where now. It's been 20 years. This is my old department. It was declared a good shoot and life went on. He passed from cancer 3 years ago. The second shooting involved the city police. I was a Sheriffs Deputy, so I did not have access to the after action reports. I responded to the call for assistance and saw the bad guy sitting up on his own on the curb while the EMT's were tending to him. Obese and drunk, he was still being belligerent. Bloody t-shirt lying on ground next to him. I was good friends with the firearms instructor, so I knew what they were carrying. Two rounds to the stomach area one to the shoulder and the last one right below the right nipple. He survived. I was then transferred to the jail a few months later as my road time was up. Please share the data that refutes what DocGKR had to say about 9BPLE. You know the actual street results from multiple law enforcement agencies. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 10:55:29 AM EDT
[#43]
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What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Unless the human body has magically evolved in the last 30 years, Hydra-Shok and any other load will still make you non-existent in this world. The top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE. I have personal knowledge on how the 124 grain Hydra -Shok performs and would not feel inadequate with it. True.. The HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot are great advances, but do not underestimate the use of the other rounds. They are more than adequate for civilian use as the newer rounds are designed for LE applications, which is something civilians will rarely encounter. Anytime someone starts bashing rounds, I ask them if they would be willing to take a round to prove the rounds are truly crap, I always get a "Hell No!!" Funny how they are scared to take a center of mass hit from a lowly 115 Winchester or Remington JHP for fear of not making it, yet they need these super advanced rounds for bad guys? Are the good guys bodies more fragile? What makes it inadequate? Dead is dead whether an FMJ, JHP, hydra-Shok, HST, etc.... Put them where they need to go. If rounds that didn't expand did not count in the demise of people, rounds like the. .25, .32, .380 would not hurt. The round responsible for the most deaths is the lowly .22. Doesn't expand much does it. Killing and stopping are very different things. I don't care if my attacker dies 2 hours later. I want to stop him right now. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 1:16:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please share the data that refutes what DocGKR had to say about 9BPLE. You know the actual street results from multiple law enforcement agencies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I just did. The Sergeant who was involved in this was my patrol Supervisor. I saw the end results of this. Back then, the forensics was not like today. No one measured the expanded diameter of the round and the autopsy report is who knows where now. It's been 20 years. This is my old department. It was declared a good shoot and life went on. He passed from cancer 3 years ago. The second shooting involved the city police. I was a Sheriffs Deputy, so I did not have access to the after action reports. I responded to the call for assistance and saw the bad guy sitting up on his own on the curb while the EMT's were tending to him. Obese and drunk, he was still being belligerent. Bloody t-shirt lying on ground next to him. I was good friends with the firearms instructor, so I knew what they were carrying. Two rounds to the stomach area one to the shoulder and the last one right below the right nipple. He survived. I was then transferred to the jail a few months later as my road time was up. Please share the data that refutes what DocGKR had to say about 9BPLE. You know the actual street results from multiple law enforcement agencies. How do you want me to share it? By typing on here? Send it to an unknown person? The ones I do have are all on paper. I am talking over the period of the last 25 years. Others were shared and read to be absorbed mentally. I have had contacts with USBP, and various departments in other states. Some were during training sessions and discussions. What I know is from experience and knowledge from other firearms instructors. While I have copies of the official reports, I don't share them out respect. I can quote the facts and it goes that way, but I won't break the trust of information that has been given to me by distributing actual copies. The Doc may have his information and I have mine. His is drawn from his experience and testing, while the ones I have knowledge were actual shootings, both OIS and those between perps. I have know of two cases of the Federal 9MM 124 +P HST. One where the 124 +p HST performed exactly as asvertised, but took three rounds to stop the attack. The other was a single 124 +P was a one shot stop, but with zero expansion. Both perps were coincidentally within an inch in height and 15 pounds of each other. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 1:35:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you want me to share it? By typing on here? Send it to an unknown person? The ones I do have are all on paper. I am talking over the period of the last 25 years. Others were shared and read to be absorbed mentally. I have had contacts with USBP, and various departments in other states. Some were during training sessions and discussions. What I know is from experience and knowledge from other firearms instructors. While I have copies of the official reports, I don't share them out respect. I can quote the facts and it goes that way, but I won't break the trust of information that has been given to me by distributing actual copies. The Doc may have his information and I have mine. His is drawn from his experience and testing, while the ones I have knowledge were actual shootings, both OIS and those between perps. I have know of two cases of the Federal 9MM 124 +P HST. One where the 124 +p HST performed exactly as asvertised, but took three rounds to stop the attack. The other was a single 124 +P was a one shot stop, but with zero expansion. Both perps were coincidentally within an inch in height and 15 pounds of each other. In other words, your claim that "the top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE." is pure conjecture based on your non-scientific study and cannot be reviewed by your peers. The evidence to the contrary, however, is widely available. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 2:03:31 PM EDT
[#46]
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In other words, your claim that "the top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE." is pure conjecture based on your non-scientific study and cannot be reviewed by your peers. The evidence to the contrary, however, is widely available. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How do you want me to share it? By typing on here? Send it to an unknown person? The ones I do have are all on paper. I am talking over the period of the last 25 years. Others were shared and read to be absorbed mentally. I have had contacts with USBP, and various departments in other states. Some were during training sessions and discussions. What I know is from experience and knowledge from other firearms instructors. While I have copies of the official reports, I don't share them out respect. I can quote the facts and it goes that way, but I won't break the trust of information that has been given to me by distributing actual copies. The Doc may have his information and I have mine. His is drawn from his experience and testing, while the ones I have knowledge were actual shootings, both OIS and those between perps. I have know of two cases of the Federal 9MM 124 +P HST. One where the 124 +p HST performed exactly as asvertised, but took three rounds to stop the attack. The other was a single 124 +P was a one shot stop, but with zero expansion. Both perps were coincidentally within an inch in height and 15 pounds of each other. In other words, your claim that "the top performing round is still a 115 grain regular JHP. The 9MM BPLE." is pure conjecture based on your non-scientific study and cannot be reviewed by your peers. The evidence to the contrary, however, is widely available. If actual documentation of facts is my non scientific study is not up to par, so be it. The BPLE round has been around way longer than the HST, gold dot, and other "modern" rounds. It was racking up results before the others came to fruition. It would probably shock you that there are still many departments that carry a simple JHP round. It would also shock you that the USBP was carrying a simple JHP load in both the 155 grain weight by both Remington and Federal. Both of which were performing extremely well. Just a few years ago did they switch to the HST round. Jello does not accurately show what a round will do in real life situations. It great for making pretty expanded bullets, but bones and internal muscles/ organs tend to throw a monkey in the wrench. No one fires a bb into a perp before they fire a round to see that the perp is calibrated. Shooters are trained to shoot center mass, no matter what round they carry. If the "modern" rounds were so good, there would be no worry where hits would be. I don't doubt the effectiveness of the HST or other modern rounds, but credit is needed where credit is due. The 115 +P+ round carried the torch for a while before modern technology came around. It earned its dues on the street like the rounds you all defend are doing right now. 9MM has become the round everyone has bickered over more and more. I admit I like the lighter rounds like 115 and 124. Light and fast is what I have trusted. I still have a disdain for 147' but seeing more after action reports is building my confidence in that weight. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 2:21:34 PM EDT
[#47]
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Jello does not accurately show what a round will do in real life situations. It great for making pretty expanded bullets, but bones and internal muscles/ organs tend to throw a monkey in the wrench. If 9BPLE performs poorly in gel, how will it perform against bone, etc.? The bottom line is that 9BPLE is inconsistent, but effective. Modern rounds are consistent and effective. There's no reason to use 9BPLE, if you have a choice. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 2:36:53 PM EDT
[#48]
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...I responded to the call for assistance and saw the bad guy sitting up on his own on the curb while the EMT's were tending to him. Obese and drunk, he was still being belligerent. Bloody t-shirt lying on ground next to him. I was good friends with the firearms instructor, so I knew what they were carrying. Two rounds to the stomach area one to the shoulder and the last one right below the right nipple. He survived... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll go with actual street results by multiple law enforcement agencies. Gelatin testing is fine and dandy under controlled conditions, but real life situations trumps the gel blocks any day. By the same token....I saw a perp take 4 hits from Remington 185 +P .45 at less than 7 yards and sit up like nothing while EMS tended to him. He was wearing a t shirt. ...I responded to the call for assistance and saw the bad guy sitting up on his own on the curb while the EMT's were tending to him. Obese and drunk, he was still being belligerent. Bloody t-shirt lying on ground next to him. I was good friends with the firearms instructor, so I knew what they were carrying. Two rounds to the stomach area one to the shoulder and the last one right below the right nipple. He survived... Wait... so you're disparaging the effectiveness of a round that performed poorly against a body-fat-padded, drug-fueled, enraged target as inferior... because it performed worse than testing under ideal conditions? 
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Posted: 5/16/2015 2:55:24 PM EDT
[#49]
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Wait... so you're disparaging the effectiveness of a round that performed poorly against a body-fat-padded, drug-fueled, enraged target as inferior... because it performed worse than testing under ideal conditions? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll go with actual street results by multiple law enforcement agencies. Gelatin testing is fine and dandy under controlled conditions, but real life situations trumps the gel blocks any day. By the same token....I saw a perp take 4 hits from Remington 185 +P .45 at less than 7 yards and sit up like nothing while EMS tended to him. He was wearing a t shirt. ...I responded to the call for assistance and saw the bad guy sitting up on his own on the curb while the EMT's were tending to him. Obese and drunk, he was still being belligerent. Bloody t-shirt lying on ground next to him. I was good friends with the firearms instructor, so I knew what they were carrying. Two rounds to the stomach area one to the shoulder and the last one right below the right nipple. He survived... Wait... so you're disparaging the effectiveness of a round that performed poorly against a body-fat-padded, drug-fueled, enraged target as inferior... because it performed worse than testing under ideal conditions? No, simply stating the fact that there is no wonder bullet and there is no guarantee any round will work 100% of the time. That shooting is why they moved away from the round. They went to ranger .45 230 JHP. Even I was a big proponent of that round and the other shooting with that round here was immediate. When a round fails after a good stop, you start looking at the round. Especially after 4 solid hits. There were no exits on those 4. Energy transfer was 100% as the rounds did not exit. They did not meet the 12 inch requirement in that case. If so, they would have exited. In a sheer run of luck, it is better the rounds did not exit as it was in a crowded neighborhood. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:02:13 PM EDT
[#50]
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If 9BPLE performs poorly in gel, how will it perform against bone, etc.? The bottom line is that 9BPLE is inconsistent, but effective. Modern rounds are consistent and effective. There's no reason to use 9BPLE, if you have a choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jello does not accurately show what a round will do in real life situations. It great for making pretty expanded bullets, but bones and internal muscles/ organs tend to throw a monkey in the wrench. If 9BPLE performs poorly in gel, how will it perform against bone, etc.? The bottom line is that 9BPLE is inconsistent, but effective. Modern rounds are consistent and effective. There's no reason to use 9BPLE, if you have a choice. The way it has all this time. So many variables. Also, modern rounds are just as prone to expansion failure. I have see three shooting reports where Gold Dot failed to expand. 2 .40 and a 9mm. If they were so consistent they would have expanded every time. |
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