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Posted: 2/20/2015 9:06:01 PM EDT
I just got a delivery of ammo from freedom munitions and surprisingly the boxes were massively oversized for the round count to the box which some of the smaller boxes have had the packaging damaged.
When I pulled the rounds out I could see some of rounds look like they have been pressed father into the case than normal. The OAL on these rounds seem to be almost an ~1/8" shorter than the other rounds. Are these safe to shoot still or do I need to contact the manufacturer to say they were damaged on delivery? Middle round is like 50 or so rounds out of 1500. 
The other two are from other shipments of the same 147 gr new. *UPDATE* So while the replacement rounds took a little while to get. Customer service is friendly and nice. However they made it well worth the wait. I'll just leave it at that. Happy customer knowing they will replace damaged rounds. Fantastic company. |
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Posted: 2/20/2015 9:28:50 PM EDT
[#1]
NO.. The bullet seated too deep greatly increases the pressure upon firing and can cause a KABOOM. Contact the manufacturer Give them the lot number and the photo. They should send you a replacement or a check for replacement costs. Don't shoot it.
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Posted: 2/20/2015 9:50:13 PM EDT
[#2]
no, especially with 9mm. raises pressure a bunch.
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Posted: 2/20/2015 10:10:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks just wanted to check. I doubt I'll hear from CS until monday. I have 4~ k of their ammo so I can wait. Just wanted to make sure i did not break the gun or the suppressor attached to the end of it. Never had an issue with their service before.
Its just a pain cause about ~300 of the rounds have various degree of compression. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 6:09:59 PM EDT
[#4]
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says.
But if you can return them do that. |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 1:45:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Listen to this man. Pressure can be raised significantly by seating the bullet deeper in the case. Not internet rumor. Any decent reloading manual will confirm and explain this.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no, especially with 9mm. raises pressure a bunch. |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 11:09:19 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. Pressure test data contradicts your understanding. The figure below is from a Ramshot loading manual (http://www.tiropratico.com/ricarica/manuali/RamShot%20Reloading%20Data.pdf). 
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Posted: 2/22/2015 3:57:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. I guess you don't understand the physics very well. I have a reloading program called Quickload (the gold standard) that will show how much pressure increases as you set the bullet deeper in the case. Faster burning powders such as those used in pistol rounds shows high increases in pressure for small decreases in the space in which it burns. I have also seen guns blow up with highly set back bullets such as the one shown. |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 4:23:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. 
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Posted: 2/22/2015 4:55:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. funny |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 10:00:34 PM EDT
[#10]
I use ammo like that in my Uzi
 it never blinks
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Posted: 2/23/2015 10:10:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Damn it, I just bought ammo from these guys... Hopefullly mine arrives intact
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:04:18 AM EDT
[#12]
I've had a bunch of UMC .45 ammo look like that.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:30:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. Pressure does not increase when volume decreases? Or vice versa? On what planet? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 8:56:03 AM EDT
[#14]
ATK chart that shows setback raises pressure to a point and then it DECREASES in .357 Sig, so may not translate to 9mm (necked cart may alter the effect??) Even with the decrease it is above SAMMI average, but below "Proof" which I assume would be the dangerous area?
Read this about setback in .40's (again, not 9mm but pretty interesting read...) No data on pressure etc but he did check the chamber/barrel with penetrating dye to look for any cracks and found none. Haven't checked the source, but I assume the chart http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm was done with proper test equipment and shows a large increase in pressure in .40 with setback. Combine that data with the test done above about setback in a .40 and you would think it impossible that his Glock did not explode with bullets hammered all the way into the case, so something is amiss somewhere. If it were me I'd send them back and get them replaced. There is some conflicting data out there, but to be safe I'd replace them (or if not that many give a few whacks with a bullet puller to restore normal OAL. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 9:06:07 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pressure does not increase when volume decreases? Or vice versa? On what planet? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. Pressure does not increase when volume decreases? Or vice versa? On what planet? On this planet, per the ATK link in my above post: "After compaction, the propellant fails to ignite properly and the ballistics decrease." |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 4:50:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. This is the very reason that the age old saying "just because it is on the internet does not mean it is true" |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:39:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATK chart that shows setback raises pressure to a point and then it DECREASES in .357 Sig, so may not translate to 9mm (necked cart may alter the effect??) Even with the decrease it is above SAMMI average, but below "Proof" which I assume would be the dangerous area? Read this about setback in .40's (again, not 9mm but pretty interesting read...) No data on pressure etc but he did check the chamber/barrel with penetrating dye to look for any cracks and found none. Haven't checked the source, but I assume the chart http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm was done with proper test equipment and shows a large increase in pressure in .40 with setback. Combine that data with the test done above about setback in a .40 and you would think it impossible that his Glock did not explode with bullets hammered all the way into the case, so something is amiss somewhere. If it were me I'd send them back and get them replaced. There is some conflicting data out there, but to be safe I'd replace them (or if not that many give a few whacks with a bullet puller to restore normal OAL. No, there is no conflicting data. Just because one idiot didn't kill himself does not mean that it's safe, it's not like he actually measured chamber pressure. You also need to read the chart again, it says SAAMI MAXIMUM average pressure not SAAMI average pressure. Anything over the maximum pressure is considered unsafe if the pistol is not rated for it. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 1:12:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Wait so what is saami max pressure? And what oal will exceed that pressure?
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:32:04 PM EDT
[#19]
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Wait so what is saami max pressure? And what oal will exceed that pressure? For standard 9mm 35,000psi, for 9mm+p 38,500psi. The exact amount of setback that will cause the round to go over pressure depends on the bullet and powder used, I don't think anyone could give you a number without testing it first. I wouldn't use any round that was visibly further setback then the others in the case, no need to get out the calipers but if it looks fucky then don't shoot it. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 5:28:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For standard 9mm 35,000psi, for 9mm+p 38,500psi. The exact amount of setback that will cause the round to go over pressure depends on the bullet and powder used, I don't think anyone could give you a number without testing it first. I wouldn't use any round that was visibly further setback then the others in the case, no need to get out the calipers but if it looks fucky then don't shoot it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wait so what is saami max pressure? And what oal will exceed that pressure? For standard 9mm 35,000psi, for 9mm+p 38,500psi. The exact amount of setback that will cause the round to go over pressure depends on the bullet and powder used, I don't think anyone could give you a number without testing it first. I wouldn't use any round that was visibly further setback then the others in the case, no need to get out the calipers but if it looks fucky then don't shoot it. Some of the rounds are just the smallest part dented and wanted to know if I have to claim them as well. The image is one of the bad ones. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 6:11:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some of the rounds are just the smallest part dented and wanted to know if I have to claim them as well. The image is one of the bad ones. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wait so what is saami max pressure? And what oal will exceed that pressure? For standard 9mm 35,000psi, for 9mm+p 38,500psi. The exact amount of setback that will cause the round to go over pressure depends on the bullet and powder used, I don't think anyone could give you a number without testing it first. I wouldn't use any round that was visibly further setback then the others in the case, no need to get out the calipers but if it looks fucky then don't shoot it. Some of the rounds are just the smallest part dented and wanted to know if I have to claim them as well. The image is one of the bad ones. I wouldn't trust any of the lot you got. I'd bet it's more horrible QC then shipping that caused such differences in OAL. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 6:56:19 PM EDT
[#22]
NO.
The rounds are not worth your firearm, your hand, or the deductible on your med insurance. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 7:20:53 PM EDT
[#23]
After having a glock 20 kaboom in my hand, the last thing you want to do is have one.
My barrel hood peeled up, frame exploded, and I had polymer embedded in my face and hands. I was lucky I was wearing glasses as it sent them flying |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 9:13:43 PM EDT
[#24]
In case anyone is wondering.
Normal rounds: 1.142~ same box as damaged other 4 from other order. 1.150 1.148 1.147 1.148 Compressed rounds oal: 1.066 1.063 1.055 1.042 1.059 |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:14:32 PM EDT
[#25]
I'd shoot the 1.142's but not the 1.060's, in between you'll have to make the call yourself. If you have a high quality full size pistol that is rated for +p or +p+ it can handle a little abuse, if you have a cheap sub compact that says not to use +p ammo don't take a chance with it.
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:54:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Glock 17 and sig 226
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Posted: 2/26/2015 3:14:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On this planet, per the ATK link in my above post: "After compaction, the propellant fails to ignite properly and the ballistics decrease." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd shoot them. But then again i understand the physics of rds like that. The pressure does not increase contrary to what the internet says. But if you can return them do that. Pressure does not increase when volume decreases? Or vice versa? On what planet? On this planet, per the ATK link in my above post: "After compaction, the propellant fails to ignite properly and the ballistics decrease." Totally beside the point. Decrease in volume results in increase in pressure. "Failure to ignite properly" for ANY REASON means the pressure is going to be lower, regardless of the volume. |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 1:55:54 PM EDT
[#28]
The point I was trying to make is that is not necessarily a clear correlation between decreased volume and pressure, since the pressure actually decreases after a certain point based on the ATK chart (granted it is still above SAAMI's max).
Not trying to imply that a setback cart won't have higher pressure than normal, and will be above recommended pressures with too much setback. What would really be needed is some data to show what amount of setback will cause pressure to be above max safe level or max SAAMI standard. Is 0.001" under acceptable or does it need to be returned. I would think with any ammo there will be a variance, and issue comes up if you rechamber rounds. Nobody really knows how much is TOO much. I was not trying to imply that the pictured rounds are safe to shoot. |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 2:02:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, there is no conflicting data. Just because one idiot didn't kill himself does not mean that it's safe, it's not like he actually measured chamber pressure. You also need to read the chart again, it says SAAMI MAXIMUM average pressure not SAAMI average pressure. Anything over the maximum pressure is considered unsafe if the pistol is not rated for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ATK chart that shows setback raises pressure to a point and then it DECREASES in .357 Sig, so may not translate to 9mm (necked cart may alter the effect??) Even with the decrease it is above SAMMI average, but below "Proof" which I assume would be the dangerous area? Read this about setback in .40's (again, not 9mm but pretty interesting read...) No data on pressure etc but he did check the chamber/barrel with penetrating dye to look for any cracks and found none. Haven't checked the source, but I assume the chart http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm was done with proper test equipment and shows a large increase in pressure in .40 with setback. Combine that data with the test done above about setback in a .40 and you would think it impossible that his Glock did not explode with bullets hammered all the way into the case, so something is amiss somewhere. If it were me I'd send them back and get them replaced. There is some conflicting data out there, but to be safe I'd replace them (or if not that many give a few whacks with a bullet puller to restore normal OAL. No, there is no conflicting data. Just because one idiot didn't kill himself does not mean that it's safe, it's not like he actually measured chamber pressure. You also need to read the chart again, it says SAAMI MAXIMUM average pressure not SAAMI average pressure. Anything over the maximum pressure is considered unsafe if the pistol is not rated for it. thanks, I did edit my post to clarify that all were still above max levels. The conflicting data is when you look at things like this graph that another poster showed, and the ATK graph. The graph below shows a linear increase in pressure, but the ATK data shows that the pressure increase does stop at a point 
I'm not trying to imply that the bullets in the OP would be safe to shoot, I would not shoot them. ETA: SAAMI, go to page 156 The ATK data shows that pressure never exceeded the "Maximu Proof" pressure, which is based on a pressure that should not blow up the firearm (not a safe load to shoot, certainly more than once). Just interesting reading, as I wasn't sure about all the data points. ETA Again If you look at the chart above, and the ATK chart (below) I wonder if the first chart took the early data with the initial slope and just assumed it would continue. It is the effect you would get if you look at the ATK data up until the 1.035" OAL (a straight line going up). If you test 9mm/.40 etc past those points, would you see the same decrease in pressure??? If they had a data point past 1.11" for the .40, would we see a drop in pressure rather than the extrapolated continued increase? Who knows? ATK chart |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 2:49:29 PM EDT
[#30]
I've shot a few rounds pushed back like that before with no issues, but I tend to just toss them if they are really bad. But I rarely come across any.
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Posted: 2/26/2015 10:30:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thanks, I did edit my post to clarify that all were still above max levels. The conflicting data is when you look at things like this graph that another poster showed, and the ATK graph. The graph below shows a linear increase in pressure, but the ATK data shows that the pressure increase does stop at a point http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q656/38superdude/RamshotOALampPressure_zpse3a59f20.jpg I'm not trying to imply that the bullets in the OP would be safe to shoot, I would not shoot them. ETA: SAAMI, go to page 156 The ATK data shows that pressure never exceeded the "Maximu Proof" pressure, which is based on a pressure that should not blow up the firearm (not a safe load to shoot, certainly more than once). Just interesting reading, as I wasn't sure about all the data points. ETA Again If you look at the chart above, and the ATK chart (below) I wonder if the first chart took the early data with the initial slope and just assumed it would continue. It is the effect you would get if you look at the ATK data up until the 1.035" OAL (a straight line going up). If you test 9mm/.40 etc past those points, would you see the same decrease in pressure??? If they had a data point past 1.11" for the .40, would we see a drop in pressure rather than the extrapolated continued increase? Who knows? ATK chart Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No, there is no conflicting data. Just because one idiot didn't kill himself does not mean that it's safe, it's not like he actually measured chamber pressure. You also need to read the chart again, it says SAAMI MAXIMUM average pressure not SAAMI average pressure. Anything over the maximum pressure is considered unsafe if the pistol is not rated for it. thanks, I did edit my post to clarify that all were still above max levels. The conflicting data is when you look at things like this graph that another poster showed, and the ATK graph. The graph below shows a linear increase in pressure, but the ATK data shows that the pressure increase does stop at a point http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q656/38superdude/RamshotOALampPressure_zpse3a59f20.jpg I'm not trying to imply that the bullets in the OP would be safe to shoot, I would not shoot them. ETA: SAAMI, go to page 156 The ATK data shows that pressure never exceeded the "Maximu Proof" pressure, which is based on a pressure that should not blow up the firearm (not a safe load to shoot, certainly more than once). Just interesting reading, as I wasn't sure about all the data points. ETA Again If you look at the chart above, and the ATK chart (below) I wonder if the first chart took the early data with the initial slope and just assumed it would continue. It is the effect you would get if you look at the ATK data up until the 1.035" OAL (a straight line going up). If you test 9mm/.40 etc past those points, would you see the same decrease in pressure??? If they had a data point past 1.11" for the .40, would we see a drop in pressure rather than the extrapolated continued increase? Who knows? ATK chart No, again there is no conflicting information, you're trying to extrapolate from two different charts, with different scales, different starting positions, different cartridges, unknown bullets, and presumably different powders. It doesn't work like that, if you want to know the exact amount of setback that will destroy your pistol you will have to test it to failure and the next guy that does it with the same model pistol and the same ammunition will get a different result because of variation in manufacturing. Also, anything over the maximum SAAMI rated pressure can blow up a firearm, you won't know when or if it will happen with any individual round but it can. Proof pressure is a design and testing standard, firearms are rarely individually proofed these days, they are test fired only with normal ammunition. It would also only apply to a new firearm that is perfectly in spec, any fatigue in the material would render proof testing irrelevant. |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 10:39:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Glock 17 and sig 226 Those are both high quality, durable pistols rated for +p ammunition, I wouldn't worry too much about marginal setback, there is some safety margin in those pistols. Any significantly setback rounds I would send back though. |
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Posted: 2/28/2015 5:33:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Buying ammo from these "reman" sources is one or two steps above the "gun show reload". Why not just buy the steel case stuff?
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Posted: 2/28/2015 11:23:41 PM EDT
[#34]
They were the new and not the reman. And 147 is a pain to find.
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