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Posted: 3/28/2014 6:16:30 AM EDT
[#1]
I didn't read everypost (just kind of skimmed) but for what it's worth my department went from the Ranger 147's to Hornady Critical Duty 135 +p last year. They said it's because the Hornady performed better when shooting through things like auto glass and other barriers.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 8:06:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't read everypost (just kind of skimmed) but for what it's worth my department went from the Ranger 147's to Hornady Critical Duty 135 +p last year. They said it's because the Hornady performed better when shooting through things like auto glass and other barriers. Even though Doc didn't put the 2 9mm loads on the list I would use them. but I'm happy with 50cal holes. They do penetrate nicely! They should of just went for the max 18inches and used 147gr |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 8:15:37 AM EDT
[#3]
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I was given a couple boxes of Winchester elite PDX1 Defender 147gr bj hp. What's the opinion on these? They will be out of a G19. I sell Ranger, Gold Dot, Golden Saber Bonded, Federal Tactical, and Critical Duty ammo. Right now my G17 is loaded with the 147 PDX. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 8:28:14 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was given a couple boxes of Winchester elite PDX1 Defender 147gr bj hp. What's the opinion on these? They will be out of a G19. Well my personal opinion is that the 147 PDX1 is a fine load. I prefer the HST but would not feel inadequate with the PDX1 147's |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 9:22:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I sell Ranger, Gold Dot, Golden Saber Bonded, Federal Tactical, and Critical Duty ammo. Right now my G17 is loaded with the 147 PDX. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was given a couple boxes of Winchester elite PDX1 Defender 147gr bj hp. What's the opinion on these? They will be out of a G19. I sell Ranger, Gold Dot, Golden Saber Bonded, Federal Tactical, and Critical Duty ammo. Right now my G17 is loaded with the 147 PDX. +1 BTW Can you find out any gel info on win defend 38spl 130gr B 9mm 147gr B 40S&W 180B all are down loaded for low recoil and marketed towards the ladies. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:02:13 PM EDT
[#6]
I generally prefer 124 gr. + P, either Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T, or Speer Gold Dot, whichever I am able to find. However, in the winter, to counter the heavier clothing (I live in the Northeast), I may switch to 147 gr. either Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T (non +P). Sometimes I just breakout my 45 acp. Glock 21.
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Posted: 3/29/2014 7:10:38 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1 BTW Can you find out any gel info on win defend 38spl 130gr B 9mm 147gr B 40S&W 180B all are down loaded for low recoil and marketed towards the ladies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was given a couple boxes of Winchester elite PDX1 Defender 147gr bj hp. What's the opinion on these? They will be out of a G19. I sell Ranger, Gold Dot, Golden Saber Bonded, Federal Tactical, and Critical Duty ammo. Right now my G17 is loaded with the 147 PDX. +1 BTW Can you find out any gel info on win defend 38spl 130gr B 9mm 147gr B 40S&W 180B all are down loaded for low recoil and marketed towards the ladies. I didn't request any of the .40, but I do have some of the .38 Spl and the 9mm Defend loads. I'm planning to do a gel comparison between the Defend and the PDX1 Defender in 9mm through a Clear Ballistics calibrated block in the next couple of months. I'll post a link to the write-up when I finally get it done (time is a commodity I haven't had a lot of lately  ).
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Posted: 3/29/2014 12:40:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't request any of the .40, but I do have some of the .38 Spl and the 9mm Defend loads. I'm planning to do a gel comparison between the Defend and the PDX1 Defender in 9mm through a Clear Ballistics calibrated block in the next couple of months. I'll post a link to the write-up when I finally get it done (time is a commodity I haven't had a lot of lately ).Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was given a couple boxes of Winchester elite PDX1 Defender 147gr bj hp. What's the opinion on these? They will be out of a G19. I sell Ranger, Gold Dot, Golden Saber Bonded, Federal Tactical, and Critical Duty ammo. Right now my G17 is loaded with the 147 PDX. +1 BTW Can you find out any gel info on win defend 38spl 130gr B 9mm 147gr B 40S&W 180B all are down loaded for low recoil and marketed towards the ladies. I didn't request any of the .40, but I do have some of the .38 Spl and the 9mm Defend loads. I'm planning to do a gel comparison between the Defend and the PDX1 Defender in 9mm through a Clear Ballistics calibrated block in the next couple of months. I'll post a link to the write-up when I finally get it done (time is a commodity I haven't had a lot of lately ).AWESOME I I |
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Posted: 3/29/2014 3:55:17 PM EDT
[#9]
So is Ranger Bonded 147 no good? I've been following this thread and I shelved my Ranger Bonded for the time being.
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Posted: 3/29/2014 4:26:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In a word, NO. The 147 issues have been discussed a million times over, bullet design doesn't mask the problems inherent with the 147, a mid weight +P is the load for the 9mm. A 124/125/127 is where it's at. You were frozen 25 years ago and someone just unfroze you, didn't they? 147gr 9mmm is good to go nowadays. |
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Posted: 3/29/2014 6:01:15 PM EDT
[#11]
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So is Ranger Bonded 147 no good? I've been following this thread and I shelved my Ranger Bonded for the time being. With modern loads 147 is preferred especially with short barrel guns. |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 3:15:40 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In a word, NO. The 147 issues have been discussed a million times over, bullet design doesn't mask the problems inherent with the 147, a mid weight +P is the load for the 9mm. A 124/125/127 is where it's at. What problems are inherent to the 147? |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 6:52:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What problems are inherent to the 147? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In a word, NO. The 147 issues have been discussed a million times over, bullet design doesn't mask the problems inherent with the 147, a mid weight +P is the load for the 9mm. A 124/125/127 is where it's at. What problems are inherent to the 147? I would assume he's referencing the problems people talked about in the late 80s and 90s. Too heavy-for-caliber, doesn't expand, penetrates too much, jams all the time, etc. It was propagated by people like Sanow. Quite honestly, if it ever was true (most of those issues were suffered by most JHP 25 years ago...) it certainly isn't true now. And the Marshall/Sanow tests have been thoroughly questioned anyway because of some of the numbers they published being way out of line from other ballistic research published around the same time and later. I do still carry 124 grain +P stuff in a couple of full-sized guns, but I have no qualms about carrying 147 grain. As hotpig said, in a shorter barrel, you lose less velocity from the heavier round than the lighter one. I also prefer the recoil characteristics of the 147, and it expands very consistently now. I've never had any jam issues with it-- I think that was an operator/gun issue on the part of whoever started that myth. |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 11:01:40 AM EDT
[#14]
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With modern loads 147 is preferred especially with short barrel guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So is Ranger Bonded 147 no good? I've been following this thread and I shelved my Ranger Bonded for the time being. With modern loads 147 is preferred especially with short barrel guns. Sorry, I wasn't very clear but I'm talking specifically about the Ranger Bonded. I personally prefer 147 gr for my 9mm. |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 11:36:28 AM EDT
[#15]
There have been reported problems with the RANGER Bonded ! don't know lot numbers / or calibers
Mainly the case is the problem ? There wasn't a flash hole. so when the primmer was struck the flash couldn't reach the powder to ignite the powder charge. |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 11:51:24 AM EDT
[#16]
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Handgun ammo changed forever when the Ranger T-Series hit the streets back in 1998. HST followed in 2001 and Gold Dot SB in 2008. I bought a magazine a March issue. The article is about how recently the hadgun bullets have recently changed. And be able to be barrier blind and so on. The only new bullets I know of the is Critical Defense & Duty Barnes copper solid HP We had the standard Gold Dot and there revisions . same with the Golden Saber Only thing really NEW is people being informed of the FBI specs ! Thanks to the Doc. you and others here ! |
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Posted: 3/31/2014 9:44:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There have been reported problems with the RANGER Bonded ! don't know lot numbers / or calibers Mainly the case is the problem ? There wasn't a flash hole. so when the primmer was struck the flash couldn't reach the powder to ignite the powder charge. According to who and when? |
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Posted: 3/31/2014 12:21:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to who and when? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There have been reported problems with the RANGER Bonded ! don't know lot numbers / or calibers Mainly the case is the problem ? There wasn't a flash hole. so when the primmer was struck the flash couldn't reach the powder to ignite the powder charge. According to who and when? It goes back to November of last year when ICE told it's agents to not use the 147 grain Ranger bonded due to "reliability issues", and was quite frankly, much ado about nothing. There was NO recall, just to relegate the ammo to practice/qualification use, no lot numbers were reported. The ammo in question was a relatively small amount that was piggybacked off the FBI contract (FBI hasn't had any issues with theirs) to supplement ICE's needs when they were unable to procure enough of the 124grn +p Gold Dots that are the standard duty carry for ICE in 9mm. True, there were some failures to fire, but it was due to an extremely limited few rounds that were found to have damaged primers from the factory, one can see a "half moon" scarring across the primer and case where the press had been misaligned. Anyway, ICE has enough of the standard 124grn +p Gold Dots in inventory now, so instead of going through the trouble of having to try and track down the winchester rounds and have them sent back, it was just easier to relegate it to practice/qualification ammo. It is perfectly serviceable and quality ammo, you just have to look at the rounds you're loading into the magazine and ensure that there is no damage, which one should be doing anyway with every SD round loaded in your carry mags. I've personally fired off a bunch of this ammo without issue. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 8:20:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Chicken little strikes again.
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:24:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't read everypost (just kind of skimmed) but for what it's worth my department went from the Ranger 147's to Hornady Critical Duty 135 +p last year. They said it's because the Hornady performed better when shooting through things like auto glass and other barriers. I've seen gel tests with the Critical Duty (not to be confused with Critical Defense which is a totally separate and inferior design IMO) 135 +p. It looks like a solid performer. I wouldn't have a problem carrying this only issue is that typically it's more expensive than Federal HST. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:06:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen gel tests with the Critical Duty (not to be confused with Critical Defense which is a totally separate and inferior design IMO) 135 +p. It looks like a solid performer. I wouldn't have a problem carrying this only issue is that typically it's more expensive than Federal HST. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I didn't read everypost (just kind of skimmed) but for what it's worth my department went from the Ranger 147's to Hornady Critical Duty 135 +p last year. They said it's because the Hornady performed better when shooting through things like auto glass and other barriers. I've seen gel tests with the Critical Duty (not to be confused with Critical Defense which is a totally separate and inferior design IMO) 135 +p. It looks like a solid performer. I wouldn't have a problem carrying this only issue is that typically it's more expensive than Federal HST. IMO Critical Duty is similar to the XTP philosophy of penetration over expansion. It hasn't shown the expansion of the HST ammo (.880 in bare gel  ) but consistently penetrates deeper. I'd personally look very hard at Critical Duty if you're a police officer as it performs very well in all barrier tests, especially the autoglass portion.Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/4/2014 6:11:17 AM EDT
[#22]
Here is two 9mm 147 grain HST's I shot into gel. Bottom one was bare gel. Top one was 5 or 6 layers of denim. (folded up pair of pants of jeans)
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Posted: 4/4/2014 7:34:55 AM EDT
[#23]
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Here is two 9mm 147 grain HST's I shot into gel. Bottom one was bare gel. Top one was 5 or 6 layers of denim. (folded up pair of pants of jeans) http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_04688.JPG Provided the penetration was adequate, that appears to be ideal performance from a JHP. Thanks for sharing the photo. |
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Posted: 4/4/2014 8:14:55 AM EDT
[#24]
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Provided the penetration was adequate, that appears to be ideal performance from a JHP. Thanks for sharing the photo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Here is two 9mm 147 grain HST's I shot into gel. Bottom one was bare gel. Top one was 5 or 6 layers of denim. (folded up pair of pants of jeans) http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_04688.JPG Provided the penetration was adequate, that appears to be ideal performance from a JHP. Thanks for sharing the photo. I cant remember the penetration numbers, but I do remember they both made the minimum 12". I probably have it wrote down some where, I just don't remember where. It's been a couple years since I tested them. |
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Posted: 4/4/2014 10:14:19 AM EDT
[#25]
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I cant remember the penetration numbers, but I do remember they both made the minimum 12". I probably have it wrote down some where, I just don't remember where. It's been a couple years since I tested them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Here is two 9mm 147 grain HST's I shot into gel. Bottom one was bare gel. Top one was 5 or 6 layers of denim. (folded up pair of pants of jeans) http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_04688.JPG Provided the penetration was adequate, that appears to be ideal performance from a JHP. Thanks for sharing the photo. I cant remember the penetration numbers, but I do remember they both made the minimum 12". I probably have it wrote down some where, I just don't remember where. It's been a couple years since I tested them. Federal's testing shows 12" bare gel and 12.5" 4LD, most people seem to be getting very close to that. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/19/2014 5:08:02 PM EDT
[#26]
I normally carry Ranger 124gr +p t-series in my p226 and like the way they preform.
Last week I picked up a g19 and a friend at the show gave me two boxes of the new Sig made ammo, its 124gr jhp and the review I seen showed it to pass the FBI test in bare gel but not penetrate as deep as heavier gold dots. I plan on shooting it this week and see how ot preforms and expands, until then I plan on keeping it boxed up till I know if its reliable in my firearms. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 9:49:38 AM EDT
[#27]
This thread makes me feel outdated. I don't carry my 226 much anymore but when I do
I'm still carrying federal 9mm bple. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 11:08:51 AM EDT
[#28]
9BPLE is still a wildly popular load. I can never keep it in stock. It has a excellent track record in real world shootings. Just because there are new technology bullets out there it can not diminish that loads history.
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Posted: 4/20/2014 11:18:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9BPLE is still a wildly popular load. I can never keep it in stock. It has a excellent track record in real world shootings. Just because there are new technology bullets out there it can not diminish that loads history. I have been preoccupied with other projects.....but making the short list, is a really good stock up on these. That load is really impressive. Good intel HP. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 9:15:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 9BPLE is still a wildly popular load. I can never keep it in stock. It has a excellent track record in real world shootings. Just because there are new technology bullets out there it can not diminish that loads history. I shoot quite a bit of it. Its a very proven round, and its a very accurate round. I also carry it in both of my 9mms. In 50rd boxes its much cheaper to practice with too.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:58:04 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
147 gr +P Federal HST This, minus the '+P' for me. Or the HST 124 gr +P |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 8:56:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Wow, I love this thread! (and no, I do not mean that sarcastically in the least) I have learned a ton--thanks for that.
Just ordered some HST from SGAMMO for my Glock 21, Glock 17 (wife's gun), and my Glock 19. (Quite a price per round difference when comparing SGAMMO's 50 rd. boxes to Cabela's 20 rd. boxes!) Got the 124 gr.(*not* +P) 9mm rounds. My concern is that my wife may have some issues with recoil from a +P round so I am going to try her out on the regular stuff first. For years now I have just carried ball ammo in my G21 because a 230 gr. bullet at 830+ fps with shots well placed is a force to be reckoned with whether it is JHP, FMJ, or even wadcutters for that matter. I'll try the HST and see how it works Thanks to all for the discussion and especially for the hair splitting. Threads like this are very educational. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 8:34:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Ideally I'd carry 147gr (non +P), but since I prefer to buy in 50rd boxes for less than $30, HST or Ranger are my top choices (over PDX1, which I haven't seen in 50rd boxes).
I think everyone should boycott boutique-marketed ammo (even PDX1) in 20rd and 25rd boxes unless they're half the price of 50rd boxes of good stuff like HST/Ranger/GD. BUT since all of my practice ammo is 115gr and 124gr (American Eagle FMJ or Freedom Munitions 124 fmj), I find myself buying whatever I can get at a good price from a respectable brand that is closer to what I shoot a lot of--this is everything from 124gr HST or GD to even 115gr Critical Defense (?!?). +1 for Hotpig's advice and CS. * -- speaking of FreedomMunitions--I ordered 250rds of NEW 124gr RN fmj on April 5th and it arrives tomorrow, 24 days later (it was free shipping, so I guess I can't complain that it took almost a month). |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 9:21:37 PM EDT
[#34]
I feel so inadequate with my 147gn XTPs.
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Posted: 4/29/2014 8:53:38 AM EDT
[#35]
I carry 147 Gold Dots regardless of barrel length (3"-5" and everything in between).
I prefer penetration over massive expansion, so this load was a no brainer for me. It performs adequately in a 3" and has a very proven track record in anything longer. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:25:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I carry 147 Gold Dots regardless of barrel length (3"-5" and everything in between). I prefer penetration over massive expansion, so this load was a no brainer for me. It performs adequately in a 3" and has a very proven track record in anything longer. That is good if you can find exact test data for a given load fired from the same pistol that you carry / defend with. But I encourage everyone to do their own ballistic gel and denim tests to see how each round reacts out of your handgun. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 3:13:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is good if you can find exact test data for a given load fired from the same pistol that you carry / defend with. But I encourage everyone to do their own ballistic gel and denim tests to see how each round reacts out of your handgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I carry 147 Gold Dots regardless of barrel length (3"-5" and everything in between). I prefer penetration over massive expansion, so this load was a no brainer for me. It performs adequately in a 3" and has a very proven track record in anything longer. That is good if you can find exact test data for a given load fired from the same pistol that you carry / defend with. But I encourage everyone to do their own ballistic gel and denim tests to see how each round reacts out of your handgun. 100% agree. And once I have the time I would love to do this. |
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Posted: 5/2/2014 10:33:42 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been preoccupied with other projects.....but making the short list, is a really good stock up on these. That load is really impressive. Good intel HP. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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9BPLE is still a wildly popular load. I can never keep it in stock. It has a excellent track record in real world shootings. Just because there are new technology bullets out there it can not diminish that loads history. I have been preoccupied with other projects.....but making the short list, is a really good stock up on these. That load is really impressive. Good intel HP. I thought I recalled reading about issues with fragmenting and poor barrier penetration. It looks good on paper if you're an muzzle energy aficionado. |
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Posted: 5/2/2014 10:07:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought I recalled reading about issues with fragmenting and poor barrier penetration. It looks good on paper if you're an muzzle energy aficionado. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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9BPLE is still a wildly popular load. I can never keep it in stock. It has a excellent track record in real world shootings. Just because there are new technology bullets out there it can not diminish that loads history. I have been preoccupied with other projects.....but making the short list, is a really good stock up on these. That load is really impressive. Good intel HP. I thought I recalled reading about issues with fragmenting and poor barrier penetration. It looks good on paper if you're an muzzle energy aficionado. Both loads were developed for the ISP and were the primary round for that agency and many other for over two decades. Still in use by many of their retirees and off duty guys plus many other smaller agencies. If you throw out the specs, tests and all of the other white noise and judge the ammo on real world flesh and blood shootings it was a felon slayer. It also worked through windshield glass and auto sheet metal. There are many newer loads that have more versatility since they are not velocity dependent like the older HP designs were. Straight from the academy this was my first duty load. I liked it then but now prefer a softer 147 load because I can put multiple rounds on target faster with that load. Multiple hits on target faster trump everything else. |
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Posted: 5/3/2014 6:12:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Multiple hits on target faster trump everything else. You really can't go wrong with that approach. |
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Posted: 5/7/2014 4:47:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is easy to get wrapped up in numbers and you tube amateur tests. The specs for the RA9115HP+ and the 9BPLE look great to the people that choose ammo by velocity. The flip side is in theory the ammo should have had the problems you listed. Both loads were developed for the ISP and were the primary round for that agency and many other for over two decades. Still in use by many of their retirees and off duty guys plus many other smaller agencies. If you throw out the specs, tests and all of the other white noise and judge the ammo on real world flesh and blood shootings it was a felon slayer. It also worked through windshield glass and auto sheet metal. There are many newer loads that have more versatility since they are not velocity dependent like the older HP designs were. Straight from the academy this was my first duty load. I liked it then but now prefer a softer 147 load because I can put multiple rounds on target faster with that load. Multiple hits on target faster trump everything else. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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9BPLE is still a wildly popular load. I can never keep it in stock. It has a excellent track record in real world shootings. Just because there are new technology bullets out there it can not diminish that loads history. I have been preoccupied with other projects.....but making the short list, is a really good stock up on these. That load is really impressive. Good intel HP. I thought I recalled reading about issues with fragmenting and poor barrier penetration. It looks good on paper if you're an muzzle energy aficionado. Both loads were developed for the ISP and were the primary round for that agency and many other for over two decades. Still in use by many of their retirees and off duty guys plus many other smaller agencies. If you throw out the specs, tests and all of the other white noise and judge the ammo on real world flesh and blood shootings it was a felon slayer. It also worked through windshield glass and auto sheet metal. There are many newer loads that have more versatility since they are not velocity dependent like the older HP designs were. Straight from the academy this was my first duty load. I liked it then but now prefer a softer 147 load because I can put multiple rounds on target faster with that load. Multiple hits on target faster trump everything else. That's the reason why I look at calibers like 357 sig and go "why?" More flash, bang and recoil but can you shoot it better? Misses don't count. I can shoot 9 far better than anything else and the modern 147 grain loads are reliable and easier to shoot than the hot loads - so that's what I go with. Plus the guns don't take a beating either. But with quality ammo there is no right or wrong answer if you can shoot it well and you're comfortable with it. |
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