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Posted: 7/26/2012 9:18:34 PM
[Last Edit: 7/26/2012 9:20:26 PM by justing344]
Not really an option for CCW but the 460 magnum would probably do the job
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ALPHAGHOST
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Posted: 7/26/2012 10:16:36 PM
better practice––FTS drills/head shots/small targets, and tactics, like flanking, etc
imo, there is no magic caliber that will fix ALL scenarios...and pistol bullets still suck in the end |
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Posted: 7/26/2012 10:22:45 PM
[Last Edit: 7/26/2012 10:24:12 PM by Buffman_LT1]
Originally Posted By jaqufrost: 5.7 is what is available and works. Wounding characteristics aren't quite as good as a 9mm, but wholes through the body work alot better than bruises on the chest. Here is a video of the commercially available hollow point and ballistic tip ammo penetrating a lvl IIIa vest.
No Not it won't.. SS197 will not go through level II, 195,198, 192 will. Neither will go through IIIA. That's reserved for SS190.. Wounding characteristics are another matter, that isn't worth the discussion point on this topic.. Body Armor must have a compressible media behind it, otherwise throwing it up against a stump, or over a piece of cardboard is not a valid test. SS197SR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPIx15JkMU0 SS198LF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8zlPlolpG4 |
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Posted: 7/26/2012 10:28:17 PM
Originally Posted By chewbacca: Guys blunt trauma is not going to do much if anything. Typical pistol rounds are approximately delivering 300-400 ft/lbs of energy, most of us are able to punch with more energy. Physics... its a bitch Vid Vid2 Moral of the story; shoot how you have trained. Aim for center mass, an arm or both will likely end up in the field of fire, and/or with the movement may result in a pelvic or head/neck shot. NIJ testing certification would disagree with you. Your fist has a lot larger surface area then a bullet. NIJ vest ratings take into consideration. If a clay backer exhibits more than 1.7x" of compression from a test, that vest fails to stop that round even if the round is captured.. However, these ratings often have a safety margin for penetration because blunt trauma is usually the limiting factor in certification. For example, Level II body armor would likely stop the III-A test standard, (9 mm submachine gun at 1400 fps) from actually PENETRATING through the Level II vest. But, the Level II vest would fail on blunt trauma impact (the NIJ deems any dent greater than ~1.7" (~44 mm.) on the soft clay test surface, a FAIL). |
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chewbacca
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Posted: 7/26/2012 10:54:31 PM
Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Guys blunt trauma is not going to do much if anything. Typical pistol rounds are approximately delivering 300-400 ft/lbs of energy, most of us are able to punch with more energy. Physics... its a bitch Vid Vid2 Moral of the story; shoot how you have trained. Aim for center mass, an arm or both will likely end up in the field of fire, and/or with the movement may result in a pelvic or head/neck shot. NIJ testing certification would disagree with you. Your fist has a lot larger surface area then a bullet. NIJ vest ratings take into consideration. If a clay backer exhibits more than 1.7x" of compression from a test, that vest fails to stop that round even if the round is captured.. However, these ratings often have a safety margin for penetration because blunt trauma is usually the limiting factor in certification. For example, Level II body armor would likely stop the III-A test standard, (9 mm submachine gun at 1400 fps) from actually PENETRATING through the Level II vest. But, the Level II vest would fail on blunt trauma impact (the NIJ deems any dent greater than ~1.7" (~44 mm.) on the soft clay test surface, a FAIL).
Duh. The blunt trauma from a typical pistol round is not going to kill somebody (okay, I can't say 'not' since there are no absolutes in life). I'm sure the NIJ has there reasons behind their testing protocol, but countless shootings have taken place since body armor has been adopted by police forces. Remember the North Hollywood shootout? Yeah... blunt trauma didn't phase those guys. |
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Posted: 7/26/2012 11:00:34 PM
Originally Posted By chewbacca: Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1: Originally Posted By chewbacca: Guys blunt trauma is not going to do much if anything. Typical pistol rounds are approximately delivering 300-400 ft/lbs of energy, most of us are able to punch with more energy. Physics... its a bitch Vid Vid2 Moral of the story; shoot how you have trained. Aim for center mass, an arm or both will likely end up in the field of fire, and/or with the movement may result in a pelvic or head/neck shot. NIJ testing certification would disagree with you. Your fist has a lot larger surface area then a bullet. NIJ vest ratings take into consideration. If a clay backer exhibits more than 1.7x" of compression from a test, that vest fails to stop that round even if the round is captured.. However, these ratings often have a safety margin for penetration because blunt trauma is usually the limiting factor in certification. For example, Level II body armor would likely stop the III-A test standard, (9 mm submachine gun at 1400 fps) from actually PENETRATING through the Level II vest. But, the Level II vest would fail on blunt trauma impact (the NIJ deems any dent greater than ~1.7" (~44 mm.) on the soft clay test surface, a FAIL). Duh. The blunt trauma from a typical pistol round is not going to kill somebody (okay, I can't say 'not' since there are no absolutes in life). I'm sure the NIJ has there reasons behind their testing protocol, but countless shootings have taken place since body armor has been adopted by police forces. Remember the North Hollywood shootout? Yeah... blunt trauma didn't phase those guys. I agree in regards to depending on what vest was tested. Those North Hollywood guys were wearing more than just one vest/armor. I thought they had rifle plates as well? |
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chewbacca
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Posted: 7/26/2012 11:06:13 PM
I don't remember. But since vests are NIJ rated anyway, it further proves that blunt trauma is not something to depend on in self defense.
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clickclickBOOM
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Posted: 7/26/2012 11:29:12 PM
5.7 Tridents in a 5.7 pistol or a PS90 are wicked! Get some REAL 5.7 ammo (not FNs weak stuff)if your worried about vests. I have this weapons platform, but I windup just carrying a Glock23 99% of the time.. http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/8450665/9240580.htm
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Posted: 7/26/2012 11:57:06 PM
Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By triburst1:
I doubt any conventional handgun bullet would be able to punch through IIIA. Best bet, aim for the pelvis and below or the face.
Originally Posted By godrilla47:
Aim for the head or legs? lllA stops 44 mag, I don't know if hot 10mm can do it. Yeah, I doubt it too, hence the 9x25. The hottest .44 mag load is around 1600fps while the 9x25 can run up to 2000 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile SS190 will, and so will the 28gr JHP when pushed fast enough.. Although the SS190 beats it at three panels to it's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk  want FN 5.7!!!!!! |
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Posted: 7/27/2012 4:54:34 PM
Originally Posted By MarcW:
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Soft armor is best defeated with multiple rounds on target causing it to fail. Thus the same rules apply - proper shot placement and do not stop shooting till the threat is terminated. Multiple rounds on the exact same spot? Good luck with that! I'd rather get a 7.62x25. +1 Plenty reasonable Tokarevs out there. OTOH, not the best round for home defense. Bill |
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PFC_Kramer
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Posted: 8/1/2012 8:18:01 AM
[Last Edit: 8/1/2012 8:18:46 AM by PFC_Kramer]
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By triburst1:
I doubt any conventional handgun bullet would be able to punch through IIIA. Best bet, aim for the pelvis and below or the face.
Originally Posted By godrilla47:
Aim for the head or legs? lllA stops 44 mag, I don't know if hot 10mm can do it. Yeah, I doubt it too, hence the 9x25. The hottest .44 mag load is around 1600fps while the 9x25 can run up to 2000 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile SS190 will, and so will the 28gr JHP when pushed fast enough.. Although the SS190 beats it at three panels to it's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk 5.7 is far from conventional lol and 9 x 25 is? At least you can purchase 5.7 ammo in some big box stores and well stocked gun shops. |
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SPTiger
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Posted: 8/2/2012 8:14:00 AM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 8:53:41 AM by SPTiger]
If an active shooter is wearing body armor I seriously doubt he's going to be hurt enough to stop if hit in the torso with a handgun round. Anyone remember a guy by the name of Mark Wilson? IIRC it was around 2005 when a guy had shot someone at a court house with an SKS or a MAK-90 I believe and Mark Wilson was a CCW permit holder that shot the perp with his carry piece, a 1911.45 ACP. Anyway he hit the guy multiple times but it didn't faze him and he was shot dead by the perp.
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Big_Jon
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Posted: 8/2/2012 1:02:32 PM
I remember a cartridge from the 90's that was designed to defeat body armor, the .224 Boz, think they had it on a Glock frame.
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chewbacca
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Posted: 8/2/2012 3:25:46 PM
Originally Posted By Big_Jon:
I remember a cartridge from the 90's that was designed to defeat body armor, the .224 Boz, think they had it on a Glock frame. Yeah, IIRC that was a 10mm necked down to .224. |
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Posted: 8/2/2012 11:19:24 PM
Original was 10mm, and i think now they use 9mm. It still destroys breach faces on the pistol, so you have to have one with replacable breache faces :)
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Posted: 8/2/2012 11:30:42 PM
Pretty sure center mass shots with hot 10mm will distract the shooter....
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Posted: 8/3/2012 7:37:51 PM
Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
better practice––FTS drills/head shots/small targets, and tactics, like flanking, etc imo, there is no magic caliber that will fix ALL scenarios...and pistol bullets still suck in the end awesome reply Tatics |
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Posted: 8/4/2012 5:48:50 PM
You know, I got to thinking about this and I've come to the conclusion that a grenade would be appropriate. Now you might have some collateral damage, but what the heck, you'll sure as hell stop the shooter.
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Posted: 8/4/2012 9:10:10 PM
Originally Posted By triburst1:
No a likely scenario, but the mass murder in Colorado has me thinking. My primary carry guns are a GLOCK 19 and a GLOCK 20, both of which I load with hot middleweight Gold Dot HP, 124 +p in the 9mm and 165 grain in the 10mm. Is there a "magic number" in regards to velocity and penetrating IIIA armor? Will any of the hot loaded lightweight 10mm do the trick? The 135 grain rounds are pushing 1600 fps. I guess I could always pick up a 9x25 conversion barrel. Some of that shit is 2000 fps! 155mm HE M107 Shell 43 kg (90 lb) TNT, 6.86 kg (15 lb 2 oz) 564 m/s (1,850 ft/s) 14,955 m |
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Posted: 8/5/2012 12:28:30 AM
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Guys blunt trauma is not going to do much if anything. Typical pistol rounds are approximately delivering 300-400 ft/lbs of energy, most of us are able to punch with more energy. Physics... its a bitch Vid Vid2 Moral of the story; shoot how you have trained. Aim for center mass, an arm or both will likely end up in the field of fire, and/or with the movement may result in a pelvic or head/neck shot. You are right... a punch will deliver more energy. However... a punch is spread out over how many square inches? And a 9mm is delivering its force into how many square inches? Big difference in surface area of the force applied. Physics. are there cases of folks soaking up ridiculous amounts of hits and keep fighting? Sure. There are just as many, if not more cases of folks stopping a threat with a lot less... single hits of small caliber handgun.. pepper spray... taser... ect. So what? If faced with a threat that is wearing armor, I am going to keep dumping rounds into center mass. He may stop after the first few.. or after more. Its the rare person who can stand there soaking up rounds into soft body armor, and ignore it. Its better than not shooting.. or trying to make a miracle hit on a head. |
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Posted: 8/5/2012 1:56:04 PM
I have to ask since I have never seen there rounds in bin ratings. 50ae, 50gi, 500 s&w. I'm guess due to there blunt point and diameter they will be stopped. Thought can the kevlar handle the energy they have?
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Posted: 8/14/2012 3:22:36 PM
Mosin nagant. 7.62x54r will stop about anything....
Hitchhiker out |
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gunnut003
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Posted: 8/16/2012 3:18:25 PM
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
I still xont understand why he took a pistol to a rifle shoot....from the story he saw the situatuon from his Apartment, and went to the street.If an active shooter is wearing body armor I seriously doubt he's going to be hurt enough to stop if hit in the torso with a handgun round. Anyone remember a guy by the name of Mark Wilson? IIRC it was around 2005 when a guy had shot someone at a court house with an SKS or a MAK-90 I believe and Mark Wilson was a CCW permit holder that shot the perp with his carry piece, a 1911.45 ACP. Anyway he hit the guy multiple times but it didn't faze him and he was shot dead by the perp. 
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SPTiger
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Posted: 8/17/2012 8:10:51 AM
Originally Posted By gunnut003:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
I still xont understand why he took a pistol to a rifle shoot....from the story he saw the situatuon from his Apartment, and went to the street.If an active shooter is wearing body armor I seriously doubt he's going to be hurt enough to stop if hit in the torso with a handgun round. Anyone remember a guy by the name of Mark Wilson? IIRC it was around 2005 when a guy had shot someone at a court house with an SKS or a MAK-90 I believe and Mark Wilson was a CCW permit holder that shot the perp with his carry piece, a 1911.45 ACP. Anyway he hit the guy multiple times but it didn't faze him and he was shot dead by the perp.
I don't either. Maybe the 1911 was the quickest thing he could get to. Either way that guy had stones to jump into that mess with a handgun. |
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Posted: 8/18/2012 8:38:12 AM
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By gunnut003:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
I still xont understand why he took a pistol to a rifle shoot....from the story he saw the situatuon from his Apartment, and went to the street.If an active shooter is wearing body armor I seriously doubt he's going to be hurt enough to stop if hit in the torso with a handgun round. Anyone remember a guy by the name of Mark Wilson? IIRC it was around 2005 when a guy had shot someone at a court house with an SKS or a MAK-90 I believe and Mark Wilson was a CCW permit holder that shot the perp with his carry piece, a 1911.45 ACP. Anyway he hit the guy multiple times but it didn't faze him and he was shot dead by the perp.
I don't either. Maybe the 1911 was the quickest thing he could get to. Either way that guy had stones to jump into that mess with a handgun. He was just a bad ass that got pissed off at what he was seeing unfold in front of his eyes. He didn't think about taking a pistol to a rifle fight. He just did it. Unfortunately his bravery and willingness to go into harms way to protect others got him killed. Mark Wilson is a hero in my book. Thank God there are men like him. |
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