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Posted: 6/14/2012 11:56:55 AM
[Last Edit: 6/29/2012 9:31:39 PM by THUNDERKISS]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT Quantitative Ammunition Selection and I am thinking of buying it. Has anyone read this book? Just looking before I leap. |
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Posted: 6/14/2012 7:26:02 PM
Well, you'll line someone's pocket by buying it. Truth is this. For a good self defense round, find a JHP from any of the major manufacturers that functions in your particular handgun and practice with it. Hitting your target properly is much more important that what you hit it with. Now, the ammo makers, authors and internet guru's will tell you that you need x bullet or y bullet (depending on whatever floats their boat) but it's all just verbose BS.
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Posted: 6/14/2012 7:43:23 PM
Or select an approved loading from this site's ammo FAQ , ensure that it works well in your gun, practice with it, and carry that round.
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Posted: 6/14/2012 8:05:41 PM
Originally Posted By THUNDERKISS: Has anyone read this book?
Originally Posted By jeepnik:
Well, you'll line someone's pocket by buying it. Truth is this. For a good self defense round, find a JHP from any of the major manufacturers that functions in your particular handgun and practice with it. Hitting your target properly is much more important that what you hit it with. Now, the ammo makers, authors and internet guru's will tell you that you need x bullet or y bullet (depending on whatever floats their boat) but it's all just verbose BS. I'll take that as a "no". Of course someone will make money if I purchase the book. That's how Capitalism works. |
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Posted: 6/14/2012 8:13:55 PM
[Last Edit: 6/14/2012 8:14:48 PM by THUNDERKISS]
Originally Posted By America-first:
Or select an approved loading from this site's ammo FAQ , ensure that it works well in your gun, practice with it, and carry that round. Fine advice, but I've already chosen a carry load. Just because I have done so doesn't mean that I must stop trying to learn about terminal ballistics. I was looking for the input of someone who has read the book. |
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Posted: 6/14/2012 9:37:00 PM
from the web page of http://quantitativeammunitionselection.com/
QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION presents a mathematical model that allows armed professionals and lawfully-armed citizens to evaluate the terminal ballistic performance of self-defense ammunition using water as a valid ballistic test medium. Based upon a modified fluid dynamics equation that correlates highly (r = +0.94) to more than 700 points of manufacturer- and laboratory-test data, the quantitative model allows the use of water to generate terminal ballistic test results equivalent to those obtained in calibrated 10 percent ordnance gelatin. The quantitative model accurately predicts the permanent wound cavity volume and mass, terminal penetration depth, and exit velocity of handgun projectiles as these phenomena would occur in calibrated 10 percent ordnance gelatin and soft tissue. The quantitative model is concisely explained using plain language and illustrated with clearly presented computational examples that provide guidance in every aspect of the model's application. I don't think he's going to tell you what to buy, but how to test it and why his theory of testing is correct. I have not read it, but he has a minor in physics so I would hope that he is following actual physics and science, not feelings or mis-used engineering and physics terminology. Looks like you might be able to find it for $10 in a few places |
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Posted: 6/14/2012 10:07:49 PM
Thanks for the link, Meche_03. I must've missed it.
That's pretty inexpensive so if I do end up buying it, it probably won't blow this month's grocery budget. |
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Posted: 6/15/2012 9:59:18 AM
The main problem I see is that generally you aren't shooting at water in self defense situations. Water is not ballistic gelatin, ballistic gelatin is not living tissue. Wolberg's classic study correlating penetration in gel to human tissue does ONLY that. It doesn't correlate expansion, for instance. (at least as far as I know that has not been conclusively tested). You can put as much math into it as you want, but if your premises are flawed it's garbage in, garbage out.
But it would be interesting to see his citations and how he applies them. One of the biggest sources of bullshit in research is the authors either not grasping or deliberately ignoring the nuances (or even main points) of the research they cite. Peer review is essential. Here's an interesting quote: Using a projectile's average recovered diameter, weight, and impact velocity to predict its penetration depth and the mass of permanently damaged tissue within the permanent wound cavity, the quantitative model produces a tangible measure of any projectile's terminal performance, permitting the direct comparison of all types of self-defense ammunition.
What assumptions is he making to assert that his equations are accurately modelling terminal ballistic performance? |
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Posted: 6/15/2012 1:49:02 PM
[Last Edit: 6/15/2012 2:03:01 PM by THUNDERKISS]
Originally Posted By Bones45:
The main problem I see is that generally you aren't shooting at water in self defense situations. Water is not ballistic gelatin, ballistic gelatin is not living tissue. Wolberg's classic study correlating penetration in gel to human tissue does ONLY that. It doesn't correlate expansion, for instance. (at least as far as I know that has not been conclusively tested). You can put as much math into it as you want, but if your premises are flawed it's garbage in, garbage out. I'm not so sure of that, Bones. I was once attacked during spring break (very long ago) by a drunk girl holding a can of beer and we only dated briefly after that. IIRC, Duncan MacPherson, the author of Bullet Penetration (which is a very good read, BTW) validates the use of water as a ballistic test medium even going so far as to explain why it is suitable for this purpose on pages 69-71 of his book. Wolberg seems to go into the analysis of expansion pretty thoroughly in that article- he explains the strong correlation of expansion ratios in gelatin and soft tissue and even provides a graph on the third page of the article that shows how expansion effects penetration depth. He states on the third page that he got an expansion ratio of 1.2 for gelatin and an expansion ratio of 1.15 for human tissue and that both mediums had average penetration depths of 13 inches. Looks like he got both metrics (expansion and penetration) taken care of. Originally Posted By Bones45:
But it would be interesting to see his citations and how he applies them. One of the biggest sources of bullshit in research is the authors either not grasping or deliberately ignoring the nuances (or even main points) of the research they cite. Peer review is essential. Here's an interesting quote: Using a projectile's average recovered diameter, weight, and impact velocity to predict its penetration depth and the mass of permanently damaged tissue within the permanent wound cavity, the quantitative model produces a tangible measure of any projectile's terminal performance, permitting the direct comparison of all types of self-defense ammunition.
What assumptions is he making to assert that his equations are accurately modelling terminal ballistic performance? I agree- I'd like to see how he gets there, too. His correlation looks pretty decent, too, given what little I remember of my college stats classes. .94 aint too shabby. Taken from the author's website: Based upon a modified fluid dynamics equation that correlates highly (r = +0.94) to more than 700 points of manufacturer- and laboratory-test data, the quantitative model allows the use of water to generate terminal ballistic test results equivalent to those obtained in calibrated 10 percent ordnance gelatin.
I mean, proving the model's validity wouldn't be hard to do. Just run it against calibrated test data- either it works or it doesn't and it looks like Schwartz did that already. |
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Posted: 6/22/2012 10:48:07 AM
When I find a new book about terminal ballistics it's kind of like a kid finding a cookie jar full of DoubleStuff Oreos and being told by his mother that he can't open it 'til after dinner...
Bought a copy and it arrived today so now I have the whole weekend to read it. Work cannot end soon enough. For anyone interested- I'll post a review of the book as soon as I finish reading it. |
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Posted: 6/22/2012 8:06:01 PM
Cheap steel case for plinking and federal hst or ranger t for carry. Saved you some money.
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Posted: 6/22/2012 11:01:30 PM
Originally Posted By UrbancommandoX:Cheap steel case for plinking and federal hst or ranger t for carry. Saved you some money.
No trolling, please. Thanks. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:39:26 AM
Originally Posted By America-first: Or select an approved loading from this site's ammo FAQ , ensure that it works well in your gun, practice with it, and carry that round. Oh, stop with your crazy logic and common sense! |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 6:22:48 PM
I haven't read this book. I have read Duncan McPherson's book however, so what I have heard about this one makes some sense.
I might get a copy for some light summertime reading. Terminal ballistics can be fascinating. And yes, I know that excellently performing handgun bullets are readily available on the market. |
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Posted: 6/29/2012 3:07:30 PM
[Last Edit: 6/29/2012 3:16:38 PM by THUNDERKISS]
I finished the reading Quantitative Ammunition Selection about 5 days ago. It is “short” at 88 pages and took about a day and a half to complete. That includes re-reading certain sections that I found interesting. After that, I set up an Excel spreadsheet that allows me to use the model while saving me the trouble of punching calculator keys all day long. For those unfamiliar with Excel- all you have to do (once it is set up) is enter a couple constants, the expansion diameter, weight, and velocity of the bullet and you have your answer. I spent the last five days messing with the Schwartz model and, in a word, I am impressed.
When compared against the MacPherson model (long ago set up on Excel) using the same calibrated test data, the Schwartz model does an excellent job of “predicting” maximum penetration depth and mass of the permanent cavity. In every case that I used, it either matches or comes very, very close to the MacPherson model’s result. Unlike MacPherson, Schwartz has laid out his model’s equations all in one place and they seem to be extremely accurate. There is no need to dig through the book to find the equations and then rearrange them into usable form. They are “right there” (in Chapter 3) and they all are explained very clearly. In comparison, it took me almost 2 days to extract and rearrange MacPherson’s equations and my math (algebra, calculus) skills are solid. The reason for buying books like these is to use the models they offer and my guess is that many people are “left in the dark” when it comes to the way MacPherson presents his model. Schwartz even goes as far as to provide several examples of how to apply his model in Chapter 4 in a way that reminds me a lot of my high school algebra textbook. While I won’t be throwing out my copy of Bullet Penetration anytime soon, I will be using the Schwartz model as a quick and easy way to get the same answer that I’d get from the MacPherson model when I have to use a calculator to get it. It was definitely worth the price of admission. |
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Posted: 8/2/2012 3:51:08 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 3:54:42 PM by Intransigent]
After buying it last month, I finally got around to reading this book. Very informative and I couldn't put it down. Yeah, I like geeky science stuff like this.
Found it on the "New Releases" shelf at Barnes & Noble of all places.
There's definitely something for everyone in it. |
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