I'm looking into getting a new HD/SHTF sidearm in full size 9mm. I really like the M9/92 series (specifically the M9A3) for ergs and shootability, but I am a little concerned about how it would hold up in adverse conditions/sub-optimal maintenance. The reports seem confusing.

On one hand.
- It obviously passed US military test/requirements in the 80's (supposedly ~20,00 rounds)
- Supposedly the fixed barrel/huge opening eliminates most ejection problems/stove piping.
- People say it will eat just about any 9mm

OTOH
- The exposed barrel design seems to be particularly vulnerable to debris/gunk getting inside.
- I've heard that the slide is too light and it often resets out of battery
- People in the military seems to HATE it (even official DoD docs rank it as the "worst firearm in all categories"). They claim it is a jam-o-matic, fills with dirt, is inaccurate and hard to use.
  - At the same time, many have reported that Army maintenance standards for handguns are atrocious: Only sent to depot after serious failures, little to non-existent preventative maintenance/cleaning, some pistols just live in a Humvee glove compartment and never leave, etc.
  - Also seems that many personel might be undertrained on it.

So is this a question of inherent design flaws, or just really bad firearm care or a mixture of both. What is the unvarnished truth about the 9 series reliability in the field.

Well I think the m9/92 series is great.
I have never been in the military or shot 20k through my gun.
I do know the military makes some pretty dumb decisions.  
They do not maintain the pistol like Beretta said it should be.  
Any gun need to have quality magazines and the spring replaced at the appropriate times.
I have ran the checkmate mags with the crappy finish.  They have been fine but I did not have sand in them either.  
I think you will be just fine with the beretta.

They are good to go if you can deal with the location of the safety. I wish a similar  "G" variant was common as the 92A1s around here.

Anything can have problems, if you like the ergos, go for it.


Joe is kind of dumb sometimes. I've also seen someone literally use an M9 to hammer tent stakes in, that's what you are dealing with. Never did any actual training with them besides qual.

The only issues I've ever heard of with this platform concern the locking blocks needing replacement, and the occasional slide cracking at the locking block lugs. (hence the 92fS replacing the 92f -- large head on the hammer pin, I think, to block the rear of the slide from flying off the back)
 

Overall, they are large and heavy, but they fit my hand well and the ones I've had tend to be accurate and reliable.

Heck, you can read stories about how horrible the military 1911's are as well. I know a few that used the M9 in the military that are shocked how a commercial one feels that has not been utterly abused.



I have an M9A1 that I purchased a few years ago just to have some fun with. I ran the gun in 3Gun and USPSA competitions for just over a year, about 15k rounds or so. I did replace the springs when needed.  The gun just ran, even in some blowing nasty talc like dust we have here. My only complaint is that I should have purchased the 92A1 so I could replace the front sight.

Mine runs like a champ.

Golly, The M9......... Here we go........

Depends on the shooter.... Are they great guns? When you buy a new one the answer is yes. If its a .mil issued gun the answer is no. Why is this you ask? because its the most least-used weapon system we have. Armorers don't change what needs to be changed on them. You have to remember that its almost exclusively a T/O weapon for high ranking officers outside of the infantry. Not that many people will get issued a pistol. Staff NCOs will have to qualify with them but they de-issue them as soon as they are done shooting.

Do/Would I own one? Yes, as a matter of fact I own both a 92a1 as well as a Taurus Pt92. (The better gun if you ask me......... Que the shit storm)

Go for it Op, you wont regret it

Almost all complainers in the military were troops with new handgun experience and some of the early gwot contract mags were a problem.
I carried one on two tours with complete confidence as well as being on a military shooting team. We shot ours much more than the average soldier but had no problems because we took care of them. Just as reliable as any thing else out there and a very inherently accurate pistol. It is not a fixed barrel it just locks at the bottom instead of the top. And the locking block has long since been redesigned.

I carried one for a year in Iraq with no problems.  Shot it every week or two weeks at a minimum.

It filled up with fine dust and sand, but so did everything else, it was an incredibly dirty environment. Just wiped it down every couple of days and it was fine.

Sounds pretty good, I think I am convinced by yall. Two questions though, if anyone could answer: (1) Is there any danger in having the slide milled to mount a red dot, structural integrity wise [i.e. since a lot of the slide is already missing] (2) how well will it handle somewhat regular use of +P and +P+ loads (is there a specific model that is better at this, e.g. 92G, or is it not really an issue). Thanks

Look at J Becker's photo above. The slide has very little material on the top, unlike a glock or sig, which have thick, square profiles. The beretta is much more slender, with a cross sectional profile that matches the barrel.

I just don't think there is enough metal in the slide to mill out a slot. As far as +P or higher Ammo?  I don't think it really buys you much except more muzzle blast and concussion.  Look at the lucky gunner website where they compare expansion and penetration for virtually every manufacturers ammunition.  The +P doesn't really get you much more performance, at least with premium Ammo like federal HSTs.

Yeah I don't think you could get a red dot on the slide of one of these, but who knows. Maybe there is something that mounts to the rail on the dust cover like the ALG mount for Glock's.


Regarding +P and +P+ use, the manual for my 92A1 states:




"Warning: the extended use of +P and +P+ ammunition may decrease component part service life expectancy. DO NOT use sub-machine gun ammunition because the chamber pressure may reach or exceed proof load pressure."


 

Side note - IMHO, this platform makes one of the most satisfying suppressor hosts around.

National guard aviation used them. we shot the crap out of about 10 of them for a day. There was some sort of error with the qualification ammo for the day and instead of and we ended up with CASES of extra ammo. you can actually get tired of shooting after about 50 mags and qualifying expert multiple times(42 of 40 targets, you can shoot the head of one pop up, over penetrate and get the one behind it with one bullet counting as 2 hits, double tap it and get a 42 of 40). After EVERYBODY qualified  expert we ended up having several cases of ammo left so we set up a reloading line and simply loaded mags till our fingers hurt, for about 3 hours, while people were shooting doing stupid stuff with them(run qualification with 2 guns one in each hand, repeatedly, it can be done but it is rough )

Good guns. The one I was issues in the academy had a ton of rounds through it but worked like a champ and was accurate enough to qualify with perfect scores.

The firing pin safety comes up also, so not sure even just mounting to the rear sight would work for a small scope mount.

As far as the slides open design, it does let more debris in, but of course it also lets more out. The danger was letting the stuff in, which got trapped in the rougher finish of the checkmate mags and thus jammed during feeding, from what I understand.

And yeah, as mentioned, easy to suppress without a booster and the barrel sticks out enough to thread.

Here's my experience with them…..

An American 92FS was my first gun. Shot ~16k rounds through it over 10 years, including lots of pistol competitions and as many as 600 rounds between cleanings. Sold it because I wanted to upgrade to a M9A3 (for the rail and night sights). That old 92 was very accurate (unsupported 6" groups at 25 yards). It never jammed, not even once, and never broke. I still have and regularly use the 15-round PB-marked mags that came with the gun. That gun had some sentimental meaning as it had been handled by every woman I've ever banged (Anne, Jennifer, Abby, Christa, LeAnne, Kelly, Ashley, Stacie, Noreen, Natalie, and the current one). It's now a nightstand gun for some dude's wife.

I also have an Italian 92FS. I bought it so I would have a carry gun thus allowing me to shoot the American 92 at-will without bothering with cleaning all the time. It is even MORE accurate than the American 92 was. People at the IDPA competitions make fun of it…. till I use it to kick everyone's butts! I upgraded to a D-spring, laser grips, and an extended mag release. No jams or breakages so far. I like it though MAY trade it in should my Wilson 92G Brig ever get here.

I have a M9A3. Have only put 40 rounds through it. Shoots fantastic. Great trigger, seems accurate. It is SEXY! Women swoon over it (like literally swoon over it).

My advice?  Want an accurate, fast, reliable, durable pistol?  Figure out what M9/92 variate you want, figure out what upgrades you want, and do it!  Replace the recoil spring ever 5k rounds. The D-spring makes a HUGE difference if your pistol doesn't already have one. Steel trigger also seems to make for a smoother trigger pull.

I generally kept my pistols kinda' wet (well oiled) though they never jammed even when pretty dry. Never had problems with debris getting in it (carrying in a holster, carried in my LL Bean backpack, carried in my glove compartment, fondled by hoes, etc.)

My other gun is a tricked-out P30L (cerakoted white, Tritium sights, HK-made light hammer/lockblock springs, rail master pro green laser, and various holsters). I shoot the 92's much better but the P30L is easier to carry and the laser/light activation is more intuitive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mtgYhNl58

 

I can only speak from my first-hand experience. Over the years I have owned upwards of 20 92-series guns, including ones that I've assembled from piles of parts. They've proven to me, by far, to be the most reliable of all handgun platforms that I have personally owned. That includes weapons that I've owned from nearly every other major manufacturer. I was also issued a military-owned M9, as a civilian LEO working for the military, and it never failed me. I was a little sad when I turned it in.
The 92 variant that I presently use (an M9A1/92G Vertec hybrid) has yet to hiccup on me. I've been running it for about two years now, including duty use, high round-count classes with Chris Costa and Ernest Langdon, and routine range days that involve anywhere from 100-400+ rounds through it at a time, and it has functioned without failure of any sort. No other handgun that I've personally owned has performed at that level, after that many rounds. I run my 92's wet, and they never let me down.

I'm not attempting to pass my experience off as scientific evidence, belittle any other brand of firearm, or claim that the 92 series is better. I am saying though, that in my personal experience, no other gun has given me the confidence that the 92 has.

Mine runs like a bat out of hell.

You had all that work done and no G conversion? I am disappoint.

The 92-series Beretta is a very reliable gun.

I think that was the OP's question.

If you want to put a too-fine point on it, you can find reasons to dislike any piece of gear.
Similarly, you can use those same justifications to idolize a piece of gear.

This is reality:
If you need a FULL-SIZE 9mm pistol that can take a beating, and still give one, you won't be disappointed with the 92/M9.

Plus, if it ever does break, there are gazillions of spare parts available.
If you ever break one, please let us know.
I've been trying to break several of them, all to no avail.

Ive had my Beretta for 6 years now. Im not mil, so I just put it thru normal paces as a range and carry weapon. Im over 6k rounds and never had a failure of any kind. Ive went a long time without cleaning it and it never missed a beat. Just bought an AK so when the funds replenish, its going to Wilson to make it even better

I know, I know. My first Beretta so I didn't know what I would be missing with a G until I bought this -



Of course that only made me want to kick myself in the ass more for not getting it done on the first one when I had the chance.

Send it back. I was glad I had mine done, despite the extra wait for the G conversion.

I've had a number of 92 variants over the years - a lot of them new and many well used. They've all proven to be reliable and accurate for me. Of course, like most modern firearms from reputable companies, proper maintenance goes a long way toward keeping them reliable and trustworthy. I don't think you can go wrong with a 92 if they fit you.

A couple photos just because they're also some of the most handsome pistols around:

My dad has a 92F that was made in italy never had any issues with it no jams or failures,other than needing to be re-blued after like 25 yrs in south florida humidity

The Beretta generally runs well as long as it stays lubed. As the gun dries out, IME, it tends to start having Type 2 malfunctions.

I've owned several 9x pistols. I picked up a 92a1 and it quickly became my favorite pistol I own.

fwiw a loaded m9 weighs less than an empty 1911

I was going to post this.

Grease grease grease.

Good grease will last a thousand rounds with weeks and weeks getting sweated on.

Beretta 92FS owner since 1991 or after die hard 2, I wasn't even 21 yet and I had to have my dad get it for me and he gave it for my birthday at 19.

Never any issues..always went bang.....

round count is about 35k rounds now.....

replaced all of the springs and also the locking block.

No issues still.

Also

My issued m9s always worked fine. I had some mag issues in 03. I had attended several high round count schools and saw some broken guns. At the time I wasnt knowledgeable enough to know that the broken guns were the result if poor maintenance, not a faulty weapon.

I would feel very comfortable walking the wastlands with an m9.

I currently carry Berettas about 50% of the time (new holster should get here in about a month so I may up their carry time.) I carry glocks the rest of the time.

The +P and ++P ammo is why Berretta has redesigned the locking block several times.  The early pistol that saw a lot of ++P had locking block issues, the latest design handles it much better.

I have a FS, G and 9A3, all are very nice to shoot, Accurate, mild recoil and 100% reliable.

Police Surplus Beretta 92FS Centurion. Straight dust cover, earlier production. Hasn't failed me yet.











Another police surplus. Came from the University of Florida Police. Used it in the academy and beat the fuck out of it. Still going strong.











Another Police Surplus Gun.... seeing a pattern here?











Also another surplus buy. Ex Santa Rosa Sheriff's Office. Paid $199 for her.










I paid $300 for her. She's a Beretta Brigader 96G Elite II. No one wanted this poor lonely .40 S&W. So I adopted her and gave her a good home. Been shooting the shit out of her at Talon Range.... at least 6k in ammo through her alone.

I have never had a problem with Beretta until last night. I picked up a new M9, when I got it home I noticed that when I pulled the trigger the firing pin block would come up and stay up. I had to press it back down. When doing so it was pretty stiff. I also noticed the decocker levers were stiff and hard to rotate. I broke down the slide and found the that the tolerances between the slide and the firing pin block were way tight. Additionally the bearings in the lever where covered in what I assume is some sore of preservative. After cleaning them and reinstalling they seem to work better but they were still stiff. I swapped the firing pin block out with a firing pin block from one of my other Berettas and this seemed to work. The tolerances are still tight but the block is functioning correctly now.

There were also some finish issues on this gun, on the right side where the roll pins are whoever installed those pins let the tool slip and mark up the slide. This is also present around the firing pin block roll pin. You can see where the tool slipped. Finally there is a mark on the top of the frame where the slide meets the frame. I saw this mark at the gun store but I am not OCD enough to worry about small marks on the finish of my guns. I guess I should have clued into the fact that the idiot mark is part of a bigger QC problem.

I bought this gun from a Beretta dealer in the area, it was the only one they had left outside of the display model. I contemplated sending it back but decided against it. While the finish issues are annoying, I shoot my guns enough that eventually I will leave my own marks here and there on it too. I ordered the steel replacement parts kit from Beretta last night, I am hoping swapping those levers out will sort out the rough operation.

I have owned Beretta's for years, this is the first new one I have bought that had issues. With as many guns as they make per year, plus they are currently moving their operation from MD to TN, I can understand if one slips out that is less than perfect. I just hope when I get an M9A3 it is flawless.

My 92FS Vertec is fantastic. I've never had a malfunction of any kind and its been with me at every range trip. And of course it's more accurate than I am.

Op, Berettas have a reputation for reliability and spare parts are everywhere. You won't be disappointed.

And those dual M9A3s...

Replace the wear parts (locking block, springs) before they break.  Use good (Beretta/MecGar) mags, not the shit-ass knockoffs the Army bought to save a few bucks.  Convert the safety to a G-model decocker and carry the gun the way it was designed to be carried: hammer down on a live round.

All guns are on their way to the scrap pile from the moment you first start shooting them. You're causing controlled explosions propelling hunks of metal at high velocity, not calculating Pi on your iPhone. Until we develop an alloy stronger than uranium that has the give and heat tolerance of steel and magic contactless barrels, wear will be a thing, period. Proper maintenance and replacement of parts as needed staves this off. Even an overengineered monster of a tank like the Mark 23 develops problems eventually, and fails utterly when poorly maintained over a long period of time, nevermind "normal" pistols. If you think military M9s are anything resembling bad, you're probably too young to remember or haven't asked around enough from guys who served in the 70s and 80s about what utterly atrocious condition the 1911s in the Army inventory were before it was replaced.

The M9/92 with competent care over its lifetime will stand up better than most, it's easy to strip and maintain, and it's the most reliable pistol I've used. Probably the best selling point is it gets you the accuracy and reliability of a $900-1000 pistol for $500-600.

my m9A3 has been perfect but so has been my sig mk25. I like both a lot, possibly the sig a hair more but both are top shelf.

The last time I fired a large amount from my Beretta, the gun started having small issues after about 125-175 rounds. I lubed the gun prior to firing but after the CLP burned off the slide felt sluggish and I started having failures to fully chamber the next round. Ammo used was M882 ball. after about 300 rounds the slide would rarely lock back on the last round.

Caveat: My M9 is beat to death, it's been rebuilt with a mix of original and "updated" M9 parts. I've got polymer and metal parts and original "snowman" style 2 dot sights.

Try using grease.

My vertec went through a handgun class about a month ago that I cleaned and lubed with grease beforehand, but not since. Ive carried it iwb and shot about a thousand rounds of tula through it with out a single malfunction that wasn't induced for training.

Ive taken the slide off to check the rails and the white lithium grease is still there.

I've got a 92A1 I can experiment with grease on. Sadly CLP is the only authorized lubricant on my work gun.

Another example of why .mil M9s get a bad rap.

Seems like one of the optic ready platforms might be a better choice

I really should get mine refinished

I feel bad because I hardly ever even shoot it any more. If it was purty like that I might give it more attention

What is a g conversion?

All cheap surplus and yet they all look 10x better than mine

My .mil owned M9 ran fine on CLP. I would "generously' apply CLP to the frame rails and locking block areas.

Use Breakfree LP.  Doesn't weep out all over the place like CLP.

It gets rid of the safety so the lever only decocks the pistol and then snaps back in place. Like a Sig P226.