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Posted: 9/6/2015 11:33:33 AM EDT
[#1]
I very much love the M9 (I have and love a 92FS myself) but I think it is a poor choice for a military sidearm. That open slide design is very sexy but not good for being the crap. I think the Military could find a much better option. I also think they are probably over thinking it.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 11:38:40 AM EDT
[#2]
I bet they stay with 9m.m.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 1:26:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Someone will get another star on their shirt and a cushy retirement job. Tons of taxpayers' money will be wasted. The Beretta will remain and a bunch of new designs will hit the civilian market. Same as the last several of these programs.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 1:31:22 PM EDT
[#4]
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Someone will get another star on their shirt and a cushy retirement job. Tons of taxpayers' money will be wasted. The Beretta will remain and a bunch of new designs will hit the civilian market. Same as the last several of these programs. Yup. Just like every other "program" to replace the M4 and M9...some cool new designs will be brought about...the Army will stagnate on their decision and ultimately say it's too expensive. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 1:54:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Well they do make changes sometimes. It just might not be now.......
 Would be interesting to see if they went with something polymer if it held up as good as the 1911 or M9. My guess is no. I know Spec Ops use Glocks, but it would be interesting if they would hold up for long periods as a general issue pistol.
But yeah, most of the time it's all just pissing in the wind at the expense to us. Also, I've heard it argued that the open slide is actually good in adverse conditions, even the desert. I don't really know first hand. Mine is usually pretty clean, living either in my drawer or in my holster. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 4:34:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Waste of time and money for a piece of equipment that will hardly be used, fired, or trained on.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 6:21:04 PM EDT
[#7]
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I know Spec Ops use Glocks, or 1911's, or Sig's, or FNH's, or... |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 6:27:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well they do make changes sometimes. It just might not be now....... Would be interesting to see if they went with something polymer if it held up as good as the 1911 or M9. My guess is no. I know Spec Ops use Glocks, but it would be interesting if they would hold up for long periods as a general issue pistol.
But yeah, most of the time it's all just pissing in the wind at the expense to us. Also, I've heard it argued that the open slide is actually good in adverse conditions, even the desert. I don't really know first hand. Mine is usually pretty clean, living either in my drawer or in my holster. Well, the bigger hole lets more stuff in... |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 6:29:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Dang it. I'm still running a SAA.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 6:53:00 PM EDT
[#10]
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or 1911's, or Sig's, or FNH's, or... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know Spec Ops use Glocks, or 1911's, or Sig's, or FNH's, or... USASOC is almost exculsively using Glocks, which have been adopted to replace the M9s, P226s, M11s, and 1911s in service. AFSOC is using Glocks MARSOC is using Glocks (while the Force guys had the new Colt M45A1s forced on them) NSW is using Mostly Sig P226s with some P239s and HK45CTs USCG (including DSF) is using the P229 Which service is using FNH? Or for that matter, who at all is actually using an FN handgun? There's like 3 local PDs in the US primarily issuing the FNP/FNS/FNX guns. No federal services, especially in the DoD, DoJ, or DHS are using FNs. As for 1911s, the Marines are the only ones still using them and that wasn't a choice of the guys who actually have to use them. OP, the main competitors at this point for the XM-17/MHS competition are: HK VP9 SIG P320 MHS Beretta APX S&W/General Dynamics M&P varient Glock While existing production handguns (like the Glock) may not meet all the requirements in their current production forms, all these companies are building models that comply with the requirements. (In other words, STFU about Glock not having a manual safety. If the US Army specifies it, Glock will deliver it). So far the P320 and the APX are the most fully modular, using a serialized trigger pack insert. However, I've heard rumors this is being capability is being developed for Glock pistols (no idea if it's Glock or a 3rd Party frame company), and it would not surprise me if the M&P went this direction too. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 7:03:31 PM EDT
[#11]
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Waste of time and money for a piece of equipment that will hardly be used, fired, or trained on. Well, the M9 contract is basically expired. At this point, the fleet needs to be fully replaced. If the MHS is not selected we'll be buying an antiquated 1980s era pistol we'll be using for the next 30 years. Those will be just for big army as well, so we'll still be dealing with the hodgepodge of M9s, parts box 1911s, P226, discontinued M11s, and varying sizes and calibers of Glocks. If a new pistol is chosen, part of the goal is to not only replace the M9, but the lot of other COTs and unit acquired pistols. This would reduce logistics while adding a modernized gun that could easily be put in a Fobbit's holster, or be tuned and upgraded with a mini-RDS for the USASOC guys who use Glocks. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 7:31:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Very few mil personnel actually train with rifles. Pistols are even less taught.
It'll be interesting. It's the Indian and not the arrow that matters. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 8:32:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Sorry, I meant H&K not FNH
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Posted: 9/6/2015 8:34:01 PM EDT
[#14]
I'd rather keep the M9 vs having a Sig P320 forced on me.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 9:50:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone will get another star on their shirt and a cushy retirement job. Tons of taxpayers' money will be wasted. The Beretta will remain and a bunch of new designs will hit the civilian market. Same as the last several of these programs. |
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Posted: 9/7/2015 12:24:11 AM EDT
[#16]
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or 1911's, or Sig's, or FNH's, or... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know Spec Ops use Glocks, or 1911's, or Sig's, or FNH's, or... I know that they use other pistols. I only mentioned glocks in this context because I was making the point about polymer framed guns and how they might hold up under hard use by the military. Most other pistols in use are either steel or aluminum framed. With the other exception being the mk23. Which you don't hear a whole lot about. |
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Posted: 9/7/2015 12:34:26 AM EDT
[#17]
I hope if they do replace it they replace it with a pistol as equally dependable and accurate. Beretta has had a pretty good run on the M9 series with the US military IMO.
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Posted: 9/7/2015 1:24:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Whether its for the better or not , FN will get the next pistol contract.
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Posted: 9/7/2015 1:32:32 AM EDT
[#19]
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Someone will get another star on their shirt and a cushy retirement job. Tons of taxpayers' money will be wasted. The Beretta will remain and a bunch of new designs will hit the civilian market. Same as the last several of these programs. Small, specialized units will always be able to field COTS weapons from discretionary funds, so what special operations units are using is meaningless. When you start talking about funding for hundreds of thousands of weapons, all sorts of factors other than "best" performance ("best" in whose eyes?) come to the fore. Now that the wars are winding down, funding the replacement of a tertiary weapon used by few is going to be an even lower priority. However, there are palms to grease and friends to take care of so the selection process will continue right until it's time to spend serious money. Then the M9 will be deemed adequate to the task. If there is an expenditure, it will be to acquire spare parts. But I've been told that I'm jaded, so who knows. 
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Posted: 9/7/2015 3:06:46 AM EDT
[#20]
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Well, the bigger hole lets more stuff in... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well they do make changes sometimes. It just might not be now....... Would be interesting to see if they went with something polymer if it held up as good as the 1911 or M9. My guess is no. I know Spec Ops use Glocks, but it would be interesting if they would hold up for long periods as a general issue pistol.
But yeah, most of the time it's all just pissing in the wind at the expense to us. Also, I've heard it argued that the open slide is actually good in adverse conditions, even the desert. I don't really know first hand. Mine is usually pretty clean, living either in my drawer or in my holster. Well, the bigger hole lets more stuff in... It also lets it back out... |
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Posted: 9/8/2015 1:51:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Beretta should convert the aluminum 92 frame to polymer with modular ergo backstraps, and add the combat bushing system to meet the 90% hits at 50 yards accuracy requirement, and offer it in 9mm and 40S&W. See what the army thinks of it.
The competition is a disastrous money pit potentially. Hats off to Ruger for bowing out. The Army isn't being specific enough. They are in essence saying, "I don't know what I want, but make me something and try to convince me it is what I need." This is a disaster for the military because they have a history of asking for things they don't buy. Companies are losing interest. They need to ask when they are ready to buy, and ask for exactly what they want so people have a reasonable chance of providing it at the end of expensive development programs. The accuracy requirement of this solicitation is extremely hard for any current systems to meet. I would go so far as to say it is bordering on unreasonable. I do like to see an accuracy requirement that is tough for a change, but as a manufacturer I would be saying, yeah right and losing interest. Nothing wrong with 9mm. the problems with the M9 are, no frame modularity for hand sizes, barrel wobble in battery contributing to early wear resulting in accuracy issues, trigger quality, the slide mounted safety decocker which should be one or the other and ideally frame located, excessive bulk, and excessive weight. Reliability is not the issue. The 9mm cartridge is not an issue. Why modular? Can't the military decide what caliber they want to use? That seems unprofessional on their end. |
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Posted: 9/8/2015 4:03:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Again?
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Posted: 9/8/2015 8:08:54 PM EDT
[#23]
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I'd rather keep the M9 vs having a Sig P320 forced on me. Please explain. |
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Posted: 9/8/2015 8:10:46 PM EDT
[#24]
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Waste of time and money for a piece of equipment that will hardly be used, fired, or trained on. ^^^This. Ex grunt. |
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Posted: 9/8/2015 8:14:13 PM EDT
[#25]
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It also lets it back out... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well they do make changes sometimes. It just might not be now....... Would be interesting to see if they went with something polymer if it held up as good as the 1911 or M9. My guess is no. I know Spec Ops use Glocks, but it would be interesting if they would hold up for long periods as a general issue pistol.
But yeah, most of the time it's all just pissing in the wind at the expense to us. Also, I've heard it argued that the open slide is actually good in adverse conditions, even the desert. I don't really know first hand. Mine is usually pretty clean, living either in my drawer or in my holster. Well, the bigger hole lets more stuff in... It also lets it back out... If you are cleaning it. Same logic can be applied to rifles, the ar is much more reliable rhan the m1 carbine or garand, because the garand and carbine are more exposed to debris than an ar |
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Posted: 9/8/2015 10:14:47 PM EDT
[#26]
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I'd rather keep the M9 vs having a Sig P320 forced on me. Lol, priceless.... |
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Posted: 9/9/2015 12:11:01 AM EDT
[#27]
Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy!
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Posted: 9/9/2015 7:29:33 PM EDT
[#28]
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Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy! And think of the millions in tax money saved..!! |
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Posted: 9/10/2015 6:15:27 PM EDT
[#29]
I have had 30 years behind an m1 and would disagree they are less reliable than an ar. Regarding the beretta ( which I carried in both Iraq and Afghanistan) there is nothing wrong with it and with the force draw down there should be plenty of serviceable pistols available for our current needs. A new pistol would be much less useful than actually teaching troops how to use them. Sending each soldier mtoe'd a pistol to a course like gun site or thunder ranch would do the trick.
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Posted: 9/11/2015 12:31:02 AM EDT
[#30]
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Lol, priceless.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd rather keep the M9 vs having a Sig P320 forced on me. Lol, priceless.... Arent you the guy that has been singing the praise of the 320 since before they were available to the public? |
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Posted: 9/12/2015 1:26:27 PM EDT
[#31]
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Lol, priceless.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd rather keep the M9 vs having a Sig P320 forced on me. Lol, priceless.... I'm in the same boat. I'll keep my M9. |
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Posted: 9/12/2015 1:45:21 PM EDT
[#32]
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And think of the millions in tax money saved..!! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy! And think of the millions in tax money saved..!! Yep and they will melt in the hummers |
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Posted: 9/12/2015 2:34:01 PM EDT
[#33]
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I know that they use other pistols. I only mentioned glocks in this context because I was making the point about polymer framed guns and how they might hold up under hard use by the military. Most other pistols in use are either steel or aluminum framed. With the other exception being the mk23. Which you don't hear a whole lot about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know Spec Ops use Glocks, or 1911's, or Sig's, or FNH's, or... I know that they use other pistols. I only mentioned glocks in this context because I was making the point about polymer framed guns and how they might hold up under hard use by the military. Most other pistols in use are either steel or aluminum framed. With the other exception being the mk23. Which you don't hear a whole lot about. Ironically, a HG with the modularity & accuracy requirements as specified will prob wind up being something proportional to the Mk23. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 4:12:09 PM EDT
[#34]
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Yep and they will melt in the hummers Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy! And think of the millions in tax money saved..!! Yep and they will melt in the hummers You're ignoring that the M9 is currently coming with polymer parts (including the recoil spring guide rod). From what I've been able to find, the melting point for the polymer Glock uses is about 420 degrees F. The thermal index (when it starts to lose its physical properties) is somewhere around 280 degrees F. The dashboards of vehicles in direct sun in the Middle East probably can get about 210 degrees F. Water boils at 212 degrees F. I'm not sure that there is a problem with polymer pistols and any amount of heat that they are likely to be subjected to. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 7:12:08 PM EDT
[#35]
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You're ignoring that the M9 is currently coming with polymer parts (including the recoil spring guide rod). From what I've been able to find, the melting point for the polymer Glock uses is about 420 degrees F. The thermal index (when it starts to lose its physical properties) is somewhere around 280 degrees F. The dashboards of vehicles in direct sun in the Middle East probably can get about 210 degrees F. Water boils at 212 degrees F. I'm not sure that there is a problem with polymer pistols and any amount of heat that they are likely to be subjected to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy! And think of the millions in tax money saved..!! Yep and they will melt in the hummers You're ignoring that the M9 is currently coming with polymer parts (including the recoil spring guide rod). From what I've been able to find, the melting point for the polymer Glock uses is about 420 degrees F. The thermal index (when it starts to lose its physical properties) is somewhere around 280 degrees F. The dashboards of vehicles in direct sun in the Middle East probably can get about 210 degrees F. Water boils at 212 degrees F. I'm not sure that there is a problem with polymer pistols and any amount of heat that they are likely to be subjected to. The guide rod is the only polymer part and is easily replaced. They do have some polymer coated metal parts like the trigger. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 7:48:05 PM EDT
[#36]
I prefer Glock, plenty of them is use by SOF during the last tour in the SB.
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Posted: 9/13/2015 9:02:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Can someone show me a dead American due to the m9?
Former grunt here, and Security Force Marine. M9s work great if recoil springs are replaced. Now as a civy I can still shoot my 92fs faster and more accurate than my glocks or sigs. I do prefer to carry my glock 19 though. I have no problem going back and forth either. Some of you with how backwards the saftey is make me wonder 
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Posted: 9/13/2015 9:47:47 PM EDT
[#38]
I prefer the 92 style safety to any other I have shot. This is coming from a 1911 guy and owned 1911s before ever touching a beretta. My name even says it.
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Posted: 9/17/2015 9:46:46 PM EDT
[#39]
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The guide rod is the only polymer part and is easily replaced. They do have some polymer coated metal parts like the trigger. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy! And think of the millions in tax money saved..!! Yep and they will melt in the hummers You're ignoring that the M9 is currently coming with polymer parts (including the recoil spring guide rod). From what I've been able to find, the melting point for the polymer Glock uses is about 420 degrees F. The thermal index (when it starts to lose its physical properties) is somewhere around 280 degrees F. The dashboards of vehicles in direct sun in the Middle East probably can get about 210 degrees F. Water boils at 212 degrees F. I'm not sure that there is a problem with polymer pistols and any amount of heat that they are likely to be subjected to. The guide rod is the only polymer part and is easily replaced. They do have some polymer coated metal parts like the trigger. I think you missed the point. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 6:24:11 AM EDT
[#40]
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Dispense with the Bullshit! Issue the Glock G17, and get it over with! That was easy! I wonder. I've seen LE trade in G22s and G17s with frames that are chewed up and looking haggard. I suspect M9s are still issued that are pushing 15-20+ years? If you started with new guns and pallets of ammo and shot to failure I suspect the Glock (and other poly frame guns) would fair well, possibly best. But, I wonder if polymer frame degradation over time would really fair as well as a quality metal one- not from being fired a lot, but from being banged around and exposed to chemicals and the elements. I'm not talking safe queens, babied CCW guns, weekend or range rental blasters, or gamer guns, but guns that get used, neglected and/or abused year after year like (many) USGI issue firearms do. What handgun frame material would really best stand the test of time? |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 12:39:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Yeah. That's my thoughts too. The guy from the Henderson Defense thread is saying they're getting cracked slides. Well isn't that kind of funny how Beretta is practically labeled junk in the beginning because they got a few cracked slides from hard use and stiff ammo. But nobody is going to say anything about some Glock slides cracking from hard use......... In one ear and out the other.
But I also believe that anything can break if you use it enough. It's just that it sounded like the Glocks were failing in similar spots from one to another. Not just random. Towards the rear or something like that. Could be a design thing. Or weakness. But those guys shoot tons of rounds through them. My guess is the poly frames wouldn't hold up as well as aluminum or especially steel (1911). But I don't really know. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 1:54:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah. That's my thoughts too. The guy from the Henderson Defense thread is saying they're getting cracked slides. Well isn't that kind of funny how Beretta is practically labeled junk in the beginning because they got a few cracked slides from hard use and stiff ammo. But nobody is going to say anything about some Glock slides cracking from hard use......... In one ear and out the other. But I also believe that anything can break if you use it enough. It's just that it sounded like the Glocks were failing in similar spots from one to another. Not just random. Towards the rear or something like that. Could be a design thing. Or weakness. But those guys shoot tons of rounds through them. My guess is the poly frames wouldn't hold up as well as aluminum or especially steel (1911). But I don't really know. Plastic frames hold up better in a lot of ways because they aren't as rigid as metal frames. Provided the engineering and material are done correctly. Plus a gun like the P320 or APX cracking a frame isn't a huge deal as it can be tossed and replaced like a broken bolt. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 4:33:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah. That's my thoughts too. The guy from the Henderson Defense thread is saying they're getting cracked slides. Well isn't that kind of funny how Beretta is practically labeled junk in the beginning because they got a few cracked slides from hard use and stiff ammo. But nobody is going to say anything about some Glock slides cracking from hard use......... In one ear and out the other. But I also believe that anything can break if you use it enough. It's just that it sounded like the Glocks were failing in similar spots from one to another. Not just random. Towards the rear or something like that. Could be a design thing. Or weakness. But those guys shoot tons of rounds through them. My guess is the poly frames wouldn't hold up as well as aluminum or especially steel (1911). But I don't really know. Well lets be honest, Ron unequivocally says g17gen4 are the most reliable handgun he rents. The slide.is breaking at a much higher round cound too. That being said. The only thing he sees break on berettas are the locking block and they go back on the line after replacing. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 5:00:15 PM EDT
[#44]
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Well lets be honest, Ron unequivocally says g17gen4 are the most reliable handgun he rents. The slide.is breaking at a much higher round cound too. That being said. The only thing he sees break on berettas are the locking block and they go back on the line after replacing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah. That's my thoughts too. The guy from the Henderson Defense thread is saying they're getting cracked slides. Well isn't that kind of funny how Beretta is practically labeled junk in the beginning because they got a few cracked slides from hard use and stiff ammo. But nobody is going to say anything about some Glock slides cracking from hard use......... In one ear and out the other. But I also believe that anything can break if you use it enough. It's just that it sounded like the Glocks were failing in similar spots from one to another. Not just random. Towards the rear or something like that. Could be a design thing. Or weakness. But those guys shoot tons of rounds through them. My guess is the poly frames wouldn't hold up as well as aluminum or especially steel (1911). But I don't really know. Well lets be honest, Ron unequivocally says g17gen4 are the most reliable handgun he rents. The slide.is breaking at a much higher round cound too. That being said. The only thing he sees break on berettas are the locking block and they go back on the line after replacing. I think the discussion may be over different things. USGI guns don't need to be reliable for 100k rounds. Excluding elite units, they are carried far more and fired less than a range run. They need to remain reliable and serviceable after many years of USGI use, abuse and neglect. If not, (frame) replacement cost will be higher than the M9 in the long run, and poly frame degradation could effect reliability. Question is can a poly frame gun stand the test of time (e.g. chemicals, the elements, being banged around, etc.). |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 7:01:31 PM EDT
[#45]
I've talked to several folks who served in Iraq/Afghanistan and some loved the M9 while others hated them but they all had strong opinions about their issued sidearms, nobody ever said "I don't care" which is interesting. Personally, I'd like to see something more powerful than the 9mm, as the Gov originally hinted at, but I doubt they will change. When I was a LEO I started out with a 9mm S&W 59 but after some time on the job and seeing the data on real gun fights I switched to a G21 .45acp. If i ever went back into the LE biz or had to carry a full-size for everyday carry, I'd definitely go right back to carrying the G21.
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Posted: 9/19/2015 8:53:13 PM EDT
[#46]
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I think the discussion may be over different things. USGI guns don't need to be reliable for 100k rounds. Excluding elite units, they are carried far more and fired less than a range run. They need to remain reliable and serviceable after many years of USGI use, abuse and neglect. If not, (frame) replacement cost will be higher than the M9 in the long run, and poly frame degradation could effect reliability. Question is can a poly frame gun stand the test of time (e.g. chemicals, the elements, being banged around, etc.). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah. That's my thoughts too. The guy from the Henderson Defense thread is saying they're getting cracked slides. Well isn't that kind of funny how Beretta is practically labeled junk in the beginning because they got a few cracked slides from hard use and stiff ammo. But nobody is going to say anything about some Glock slides cracking from hard use......... In one ear and out the other. But I also believe that anything can break if you use it enough. It's just that it sounded like the Glocks were failing in similar spots from one to another. Not just random. Towards the rear or something like that. Could be a design thing. Or weakness. But those guys shoot tons of rounds through them. My guess is the poly frames wouldn't hold up as well as aluminum or especially steel (1911). But I don't really know. Well lets be honest, Ron unequivocally says g17gen4 are the most reliable handgun he rents. The slide.is breaking at a much higher round cound too. That being said. The only thing he sees break on berettas are the locking block and they go back on the line after replacing. I think the discussion may be over different things. USGI guns don't need to be reliable for 100k rounds. Excluding elite units, they are carried far more and fired less than a range run. They need to remain reliable and serviceable after many years of USGI use, abuse and neglect. If not, (frame) replacement cost will be higher than the M9 in the long run, and poly frame degradation could effect reliability. Question is can a poly frame gun stand the test of time (e.g. chemicals, the elements, being banged around, etc.). Glocks have been in military service for 20+years. I just dont think its a very important factor. Ive seen some pretty knarly looking beretta and glock frames that both still work. Im not saying glock frames will last 100 years of military service but I wouldnt be surprised if they did. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 9:00:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've talked to several folks who served in Iraq/Afghanistan and some loved the M9 while others hated them but they all had strong opinions about their issued sidearms, nobody ever said "I don't care" which is interesting. Personally, I'd like to see something more powerful than the 9mm, as the Gov originally hinted at, but I doubt they will change. When I was a LEO I started out with a 9mm S&W 59 but after some time on the job and seeing the data on real gun fights I switched to a G21 .45acp. If i ever went back into the LE biz or had to carry a full-size for everyday carry, I'd definitely go right back to carrying the G21. If I reenlisted tomorrow id be happy with a glock, beretta, or sig and feel confident with plan old ball. People get so hung up up on brands when it is pretty irrelevant to the shooter. Software trumps hardware. Since warfighters hardly ever fight with a handgun the g19 would be my pic because of weight. Beretta for aesthetics, speed, and accuracy |
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