I just watched a video with Kyle Lamb comparing the Glock to an M&P.  He said the Glock in 9mm and the M&P in 9mm are comparable. He said that with his experience the M&P wins out when you go to the .40 as the Glock is having issues.  What is going on with the .40's tribe? I'm not at a Delta Force round count with my .40 and I am not even first degree mall ninja yet....I havent had any problems. I would like to know some issues before I build an ammo fort though.

I have 4 Glocks in 40 cal and never had any problems.

I also have not heard of any issues with any of the .40 models lately - if anything the 9's have been the ones with some teething problems (Gen 4 - which seem to have been worked out).

I watched that video today with a look on my face the whole time. It was more rambling than facts ( still a big fan of Lamb).

ETA: I've had a Gen4 22 since 2010 with a TRL-1 on it and never had a failure.

The below info refers to Gen 3 Glock 22's....

If you shoot a 40 cal glock, keep an eye on the trigger pins and locking block pins.  I've changed out quite a few trigger pins that cracked in half and locking block pins that bent.  Even the most current upgraded recoil spring assemblies seem to loose enough poundage that by the 3,000-4,000 rounds mark they allow an excessive load to be transferred to the locking block, which induces flex in the pins, leading to their failure.  The tell tell sign that you have a broken pin will be inconsistent failure to feed problems. Most of the time the cracked pin will stay in the frame, at least in part, or you may notice it sticking out a bit on one side.

If you have a cracked or bent pin, make sure you install a new recoil spring when you replace the pins or you'll be replacing them again with in the next 500-1,000 rounds.

The problem stems from the fact that Glock essentially designed the 17 to handle 9mm all day long forever and ever.  Then the FBI went to 10mm and then went to .40 cal.  Glock saw the size of the 40 beside a 9mm and said lets just squeeze the 40 into the 17 frame with minor revisions and they didn't fully upgrade the pins/locking block and recoil assembly to take the extra load of .40 cal.  Yes they have a different recoil spring than the 17, but it doesn't have the round count life of the recoil springs used in the 17 and the 21.

Additionally, adding a weapon light to the front dust cover stiffened the frame enough to reduce the flex in the frame.  By reducing the flex, the slide's reward movement has less friction from the lower amount of distortion, which increased the slide speed/energy transfer to the frame assembly from the slide during recoil.  The failure to feed issues that were in the gun media a few years ago showed that older mag springs, with weaker/shorter springs couldn't move the rounds up fast enough to keep up with the slide speed.  Glock issued a notice to upgrade old mags with new mags that had the most up to date follower and spring set to correct that problem.

Wes

Thanks for the explanation of the very odd flashlight issue.  I have a Gen 2 23, bought in 1991, and very early on we had a pin that started walking out of the frame.  Called Glock, picked up new parts in Georgia, put the new pin in, never have had a problem since.

In before Glockreaper tells you that the Glock 22 is a new frame designed from scratch, there are not problems with the Glock 40 and Delta must have some other reason for dumping them.

Thanks Wes for the info.

Do you recommend aftermarket pins and recoil spring before the problems start?
or
Would you just count this as a necessary maintenance issue as I get into a higher round count?

I have a Gen 3 G23.

Beat me to it.

Guppy brass

Our local LEOs are carrying G22s and the Academy firing schedule is significant as over 50k rounds of 165 get fired in 3 weeks based on an average class size of 20.  The range master told me there was not a single failure of the components of the firearm during the last Academy.

The agency is 500 deep and a probably 400 of them have a G22 of Gen3 or Gen4 pedigree.

Also most of the surrounding counties also carry a G22.

If this was such a significant problem, I doubt they'd be issuing these out.

I'd roughly guess there are at least 1000 LEOs carrying a G22 in a 30 mile radius.

The northernmost county of mine actually carry 31s and 32s for the Police.

that's never stopped other agencies.

Someone should ask him about the M&P's greatness as it pertains to 357 Sig.

Recoil spring assemblies are a wear item in every semi auto, run long enough without replacing and bad things almost certainly will happen

Without getting to much into my personal info, I am an armorer for an agency with over 100 G22 in the field every day and I disassemble those guns every year.  Many of the cracked pins are caught during annual service and often times the bent pins are found before a crack occurs.  We know if the "problem" BT its a lot cheaper to simply do maintenance and service the parts as needed vs buying new guns.  Had we known of the issues and had 9mm been fleshed out to where it is today we would have stayed with the G17.

Glock makes great products but the G22 gen3 pistols aren't quite as bomb proof as many of their other models.

As to the question on springs and pins...as a Glock Armorer I am obligated to tell you to only use Glock parts.

Also, if you think about a 3 week program with even 20 students, you are looking at well under the 3000 round mark per shooter with with 50k rounds being shot.

For comparison in a 5 day class earlier this year I put 3000 rounds though my G22.  Other than the pins and recoil springs the G22 runs like a champ.  The Gen4's resolved these issues with some revisions.

I'll add that when you consider the mechanics of shooting a weaker grip and stance will allow more of the recoil to be distributed to the shooter vs having the pistol well locked in, leading to some people seeing the pin issue come up than others. You tend to notice that those with Tue better grip and stance also shoot more so they get to the higher round counts quicker.

I can go with this but you either believe the facts I am providing from experience or you don't.

Wes

He gets paid when S&W sells a VTAC edition pistol, that's how.

Glocks are underweight and undersprung in .40, and also have more recoil than they ought to have.

Sure.  What does that have to do with a paid S&W spokesman determining that the M&P beats the Glock on nearly every point?

I really don't care either way, the rambling "honest assessment" video was funny though.

If he was just shilling, why say that the Glock 17 was as good as the M&P?

Regardless of the Glock's "shortcomings", you know this has some to do with it.  

Why have so many police agencies like Atlanta PD and others switched from M&P with the quickness if they are all that?  

Lots of agencies out there dumping S&W too.  

For the record I won both brands.  

MY Glock 23 is 15 years old with multi thousands of rounds through it and never had ONE malfunction of any kind,  

My M&P 9 wouldn't shoot 2 rounds without a jam NIB.  

Both are great designs but the Glock obviously has a better track record long term.

Interesting.  When I completed Glock Rep Jim Greene's Armorer's school in spring of 2013 I noticed that the Gen 4 adendum had a round count life for the Gen 4 springs of 5000 rounds.  I questioned Jim in the class on the expected life of the Gen 3 springs on the Glock 22.

Mr. Greene's response was at least 5000 rounds and to use the following test:
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I didn't want to side track the class so I waited for a break and then explained the repeated broken pin problems and that my agency saw and that the issues stopped when we started replacing springs that would still pass the above test.  Mr. Greene said that unoffically 3000-4000 rounds would be the limit of a recoil spring in the G22.

Tonight I pulled out the manuals again and reviewed them for any exact round life estimate for Gen 3 guns and I've yet to find anything.  Pg80 of the 2013 publication essentaily states to check the springs with visual inspections and function tests but it does not provide an exact round count.

I wasn't an Armorer when my agency had the 17's in service but I know the 17's weren't breaking pins and recoil springs weren't changed out often, if at all, for well over 5000 rounds despite training with +P+ rounds all the time (at least 200 rounds a month per officer).

So....If Glock published some hard numbers for armorer or public consumption since I went through in 2013, please share them!!!

Thanks
Wes

I carry a Glock everyday and recommend the Glock 19 as a first handgun to everyone who will listen. But Glock as a company has a history of lying, and I won't deny that.

i mean, we all know how popular those M&P .40 cals are...

I had an M&P .40 and it shot wildly large groups even when benched. Traded it in on Gen 4 G35 and haven't had any issues with it, but I don't shoot it that much either.

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ok... just watched the vid (didn't watch it before my last post) Jerry Miculek couldn't even have a more biased opinion about M&P pistols (actually, Jerry is pretty fair when comparing polymer pistols) but you get my point! wtf??? i understand Kyle Lamb has shot more than i will ever dream of, but 90% of that video was complete nonsense, unless you're a M&Paholic.....

the issues as i recall them:



when they first came out with .40 models they used the same frame and recoil spring as in the 9mm models.  spring was fine for 9's but undersprung for the .40 making recoil sharper.



when rails were added on the Gen3, the added rigidity reduced frame flex and sped up the slide and and caused misfeeds.  this seemed to affect the G22 the most and happened more when a light was mounted.  the fix was to add 1 coil to the mag spring so the rounds fed faster



when the Gen4 was released they increased the weight of the 9/40 springs to handle the .40 better but this resulted in cycling issues with the 9mm guns.  there was a spring recall and they finally separated the 9 and 40 springs to have their own weights



during the years there have been various redesigns of the 9 and 40 mag followers and ejectors  

I've been carrying Glocks in .40 since they were imported in the mid 90s.

My agency and the surrounding departments have issued G22s since approx 1996 with around 2000 sworn

I shoot.... A lot. My close friend is the Sgt over the range and SWAT guy. We speak often about high end gear and training.

There have been a couple of guns with issues over the years with the Gen3 and weapon light issue but it never shook my confidence and I've never had any issues with reliability.

I've worked in plain clothes for the past 13 + years so I can qualify and carry most any quality handgun on the market and I've owned most of them. When I go to work today I'll have on a personally owned gen4 G23 and a couple spare mags.

No disrespect to Mr Lamb but I select, test and train with my own gear. If it proves itself when I'm done with it I keep it.

I see a reoccurring trend that shooters look to large police or military units to T&E a specific model of weapon. They then buy that weapon and put minimal time into it. I've always thought it might be a better idea to use the info as a guide but ultimately test and shoot the hell out of the particular gun I own for it to prove its reliability to me.

In the end.... It's far more about the INDIAN than it is about the AAROW.

i'm still new, but i've got over 1,000 rounds through my glock 22 4th gen with no problems.

Yup, this right here. I took mine in 2012, also. Single recoil springs (3rd Gen and earlier) are to be replaced every 3000 rds (although 9mm could "go a little longer") and the dual recoil springs (Gen4 and the subcompacts) are to be replaced every 5000 rds (again, 9mm could "go a little longer"). The instructor stressed that the recoil springs NEED replaced according to this schedule or damage could result, especially in .40 and .357. The damage warned about was broken and bent pins and broken locking blocks.

Bub75

As of today they, Delta are still using the G22.

Last I heard they are on their way out, from a guy who has always been right before.

Since the recent FBI report on 9mm vs. 40 or more so the praise for 9mm current ballistics when compared to 40 there seems to be many agencies dumping 40's in mass and not just Glocks.

Delta is using the 17 now apparently as well if the internet reports are to be believed

Yes they are using the G-17.  They also are using the G-19.  But the G 22 is still in use.  Operators choice.  Some people don't want to give up the 40 cal.  A few people still run 1911A1s.  

Cheers

I have been through the Glock armorer class 4 times since 2003 and every time the instructor stated the RSA should be replaced every 2,000 rounds for Gen 3 guns.  For Gen 4 they changed it to 5,000.  But I have never heard anything more than 2,000 rounds from Glock for the Gen 3's.  The instructors have always made the comment, "If you are having problems of any kind with a Glock, the first thing to do is change the RSA and 90% of the time that will fix it."

Its becoming clear that Glock may have regional practices but no official round count.  You are reporting 2,000, AJE said he was told 3,000, I was to told function test but unofficially 3-4,000 and Glock had no published number in their 2013 manual.

If someone has an official Glock publication with replacement intervals by round count available for the recoil spring assembly in the various Glock models, please post it.

Thanks
Wes

Winner, I respect the SGM to the utmost of my ability but when you're being paid by the company then objectivity goes out the window. Ask the Texas DPS, NCHP, SCHP and many other agencies how their M&P's are holding up.

The main agency in my area uses Gen 3 G22s primarily (still a lot of Gen 2's and, as I recall, four Gen 4's so far). I know some of the range instructors, and they know of no non-shooter-induced malfunctions over the last few years. That said, all officers should have the latest magazine springs. And various lights are authorized and used.