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Quoted: Somewhere, someway, one must learn or be taught the FUNDAMENTALS. Which I've said. View Quote After you grasp the fundamentals, one may train as he/she wishes, whether for CCW/competition/etc. Yup One could burn a lot of ammo and not be doing a damn bit of good if you're not employing the FUNDAMENTALS. Yup The quickest, easiest, cheapest (when you consider the cost of ammo one can burn just guessing at what you're doing) way to build a solid foundation is to train with someone who knows and can teach the most basic elements of pistol shooting and diagnose problems that a new shooter cannot diagnose for himself. Or, learn to do it yourself and dry fire spending nothing but time. OP is asking us why he got his arithmetic homework wrong and many IIT have responded by telling him he needs to practice differential equations. Only one person did that. Just my .02 It's not math. Shoot closer and dry fire a lot. Easy as pie, cheaper, fits schedules and budgets better. Then seek help as needed. |
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We've surely confused him enough by now, if he's still reading
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Quoted: Quoted: You are flinching. Have someone else load your mags and throw a random couple dummy rounds in there. You will see. This is a fantastic exercise Straight dry firing is much more effective. |
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That's been outdated for a long time. Straight dry firing is much more effective. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You are flinching. Have someone else load your mags and throw a random couple dummy rounds in there. You will see. This is a fantastic exercise Straight dry firing is much more effective. Perhaps you could post a video of you on the range you work at conducting live fire and conducting dry fire. This way the OP could see what you are writing about. Judging from the picture in the Op's original post he is all over the place. Another idea would be you arrange to spend some time with the OP and give them some instruction on the basic fundamentals of handgun shooting. |
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Quoted: Perhaps you could post a video of you on the range you work at conducting live fire and conducting dry fire. This way the OP could see what you are writing about. Judging from the picture in the Op's original post he is all over the place. Another idea would be you arrange to spend some time with the OP and give them some instruction on the basic fundamentals of handgun shooting. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: snip Perhaps you could post a video of you on the range you work at conducting live fire and conducting dry fire. This way the OP could see what you are writing about. Judging from the picture in the Op's original post he is all over the place. Another idea would be you arrange to spend some time with the OP and give them some instruction on the basic fundamentals of handgun shooting. |
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That's been outdated for a long time. Straight dry firing is much more effective. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You are flinching. Have someone else load your mags and throw a random couple dummy rounds in there. You will see. This is a fantastic exercise Straight dry firing is much more effective. I'll concede the fact that the drill I posted is probably a bit advanced but that "outdated" drill will help as much as straight dry firing. |
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I just got my g19 a couple months ago, and I have put right around 600 rnds through it. This was my target from Thursday. I am a lefty and I push right. On this target I'm drawing from my holster, concealed and firing one round and trying to keep it as close to 1 second as possible. I fill I have a very good grip and I don't flinch, but I still push right. Maybe it's my stuby hands it's like my trigger finger is trying to reach to far. I'm thinking about taking my tlr -1 off because I can't reach the actuation lever for the light without breaking my grip. The tip of my trigger finger just barely touches the back side of the lever. <a href="http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/TNcannons/media/20140417_175357_zps90fkujdv.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b613/TNcannons/20140417_175357_zps90fkujdv.jpg</a> View Quote Just thought of this... where is your support hand on the grip? Do you shoot "thumbs forward"? I use my support hand thumb for the lever on my TLR1. |
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Quoted: I'll concede the fact that the drill I posted is probably a bit advanced but that "outdated" drill will help as much as straight dry firing. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: snip I'll concede the fact that the drill I posted is probably a bit advanced but that "outdated" drill will help as much as straight dry firing. The brain only knows what's going to happen through repetition. Lots, and lots, and lots of dry fire will train your brain to not expect anything other than a click and a sight picture. During live fire, one random dummy round here and there isn't going to make a difference over the course of shooting. Stopping and dry firing multiple times will, and I'll often do that for students who start dropping rounds with anticipation to get their brain back into the "nothing is going to happen" mode. IMHO the only time dummy rounds should be mixed with live rounds is for immediate action drills. |
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I agree with everything you say about dry fire 100%.
I'm not saying he shouldn't dry fire at all. The random dummy round is helping him identify problems that he wouldn't be able to do so while dry firing, ie the explosion going off in front of his face changes quite a bit. It doesn't change what he should be doing but it probably will change what he's actually doing. I think its not only important to dry fire, but also dry fire while at the range, in between live fire drills. |
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you have to crawl before you walk. get closer..like 3,5,7 yards.. View Quote This. No shame in shooting at 3-4 yards while getting acquainted with the handgun. It's a good warm-up. If you can't hold a group at 3-4 then you'll be all over the place at 7-10. I typically start at 3-4 and decide how quickly I want to move the target out to a longer range. Take your time getting a sight picture and squeezing the trigger slowly. Figure out what it takes to get it right; then do that repeatedly. |
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Quoted: I agree with everything you say about dry fire 100%. I'm not saying he shouldn't dry fire at all. The random dummy round is helping him identify problems that he wouldn't be able to do so while dry firing, ie the explosion going off in front of his face changes quite a bit. It doesn't change what he should be doing but it probably will change what he's actually doing. I think its not only important to dry fire, but also dry fire while at the range, in between live fire drills. View Quote There's a great paper out, and I'll see if I can find it later that explains muscle memory and repetitions, and some of the numbers that get stated for how long it takes to create muscle memory (Typically states as 1000-4000 repetition). Boils down to, that's about how long it takes to overwrite bad habits/ muscle memory. It only takes a few hundred repetitions to create a habit/ muscle memory. So a few snap caps in a mag at best are going to tell people what they can see on paper or watch, but are going to do little to correct anything. |
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Quoted: This. No shame in shooting at 3-4 yards while getting acquainted with the handgun. It's a good warm-up. If you can't hold a group at 3-4 then you'll be all over the place at 7-10. I typically start at 3-4 and decide how quickly I want to move the target out to a longer range. Take your time getting a sight picture and squeezing the trigger slowly. Figure out what it takes to get it right; then do that repeatedly. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: you have to crawl before you walk. get closer..like 3,5,7 yards.. This. No shame in shooting at 3-4 yards while getting acquainted with the handgun. It's a good warm-up. If you can't hold a group at 3-4 then you'll be all over the place at 7-10. I typically start at 3-4 and decide how quickly I want to move the target out to a longer range. Take your time getting a sight picture and squeezing the trigger slowly. Figure out what it takes to get it right; then do that repeatedly. |
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That kind of the crux of the issue, if an anticipation of recoil or anything else shows up during live fire with snap caps, that's exposing an imprinted reaction/ muscle memory. (It will also show up on paper just as well, especially shooting close). That means they are already behind the curve, and have to dig themselves out at the cost of LOTS of dryfire. Much more to get rid of the bad habits than it took to create them. That's why to me, there is not much point in doing it. It seems like more of a carryover from the days before people started really getting into neurology advances, and applying them to sports. There's a great paper out, and I'll see if I can find it later that explains muscle memory and repetitions, and some of the numbers that get stated for how long it takes to create muscle memory (Typically states as 1000-4000 repetition). Boils down to, that's about how long it takes to overwrite bad habits/ muscle memory. It only takes a few hundred repetitions to create a habit/ muscle memory. So a few snap caps in a mag at best are going to tell people what they can see on paper or watch, but are going to do little to correct anything. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I agree with everything you say about dry fire 100%. I'm not saying he shouldn't dry fire at all. The random dummy round is helping him identify problems that he wouldn't be able to do so while dry firing, ie the explosion going off in front of his face changes quite a bit. It doesn't change what he should be doing but it probably will change what he's actually doing. I think its not only important to dry fire, but also dry fire while at the range, in between live fire drills. There's a great paper out, and I'll see if I can find it later that explains muscle memory and repetitions, and some of the numbers that get stated for how long it takes to create muscle memory (Typically states as 1000-4000 repetition). Boils down to, that's about how long it takes to overwrite bad habits/ muscle memory. It only takes a few hundred repetitions to create a habit/ muscle memory. So a few snap caps in a mag at best are going to tell people what they can see on paper or watch, but are going to do little to correct anything. You don't think the gun going off will have any effect? I can dry fire till the cows come home and, although it's imprinting good muscle memory, that doesn't mean I won't start flinching as soon as I start live fire again. |
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You're thinking about too much! You're shooting a 4" bbl auto for self defense. You're distances should be 5-10yds. If you have an encounter, it will probably be five feet or less! Put the front sight on target, the trigger control will come with practice. Focus on front sight! Take your time, speed will come. Most of all, have fun! Relaxing will help you most of all! I've been shooting handguns for 35+ yrs, I sort of know about this shooting thing. Practice and have fun, you'll achieve your goal!
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I developed quite a flinch for myself when I was a teenager while trap shooting.... (imagine... a 17 year old flinching while shooting 200 rounds of 12 gauge a week). . Now, I learned to work through it before I ever touched a handgun.
It was a few more years before I got into handguns, and a few more after that before I ever knew dry fire was a thing. Over the last year I got into competition shooting, so I've put way more rounds downrange than I have at anytime in the past and I've been doing a bunch of dry fire in between practicing. I can dry fire for days, but there are certain things very different. 1. I know without a doubt that the gun is not going to go off. 1a. Therefore, there is no recoil, no noise, no nothing. My muscles will stay relaxed because nothing is going to happen. 2. When I am live firing, I know that I need to do the same things I am doing while dry firing... however; 2a. I know there is going to be recoil. I know there is going to be noise. I know there is going to be an object jumping in my hands that I need to control. I don't think its possible that you can keep your muscles from tensing up when you know its for real. You have to learn to control it. And that is something that you can't do while dry firing. |
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The ball and dummy drill is one of the best diagnostic tools in your repertoire to check and see if you are employing the same sound techniques in live fire as you are in dry fire.
All three components are/should be present in a solid training regimen. 1. Dryfire (where you'll complete the most repetitions, typically) 2. Livefire 3. Diagnostic tests and benchmark drills
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Quoted: The ball and dummy drill is one of the best diagnostic tools in your repertoire to check and see if you are employing the same sound techniques in live fire as you are in dry fire. View Quote All three components are/should be present in a solid training regimen. 1. Dryfire (where you'll complete the most repetitions, typically) 2. Livefire 3. Diagnostic tests and benchmark drills Physiologically it only works before a shooter's subconscious develops a more refined recoil control. That's why results of paper IMHO are a MUCH better indicator. Plus, watching what the gun is doing means you're not watching the shooters face, which is a much better indicator of what's going on. For someone like the OP though, who's going to the range and doing it himself, at least for now, there's no one to watch him. If he does the ball and dummy drill, will he know if he was anticipating recoil? Will he know why? For him, results on paper will tell the story. If shooting at 10' all his hits are POA/ POI but when he hits the dummy round the gun drops then is he truly "flinching" or was it recoil managment? In my classes I just avoided it entirely by having student dry fire a bunch in the classroom, then moving out to the line, and shooting .22's with the more confident students shooting first, and the less watching getting used to the noise. Then when we moved to 9mm, I'd have them all dry fire a bit, the shoot one round at a time, then dry fire as I moved down the line handing out ammo round by round. Once they got used to that with tons of dry fire between individual rounds, I'd give them 2-3 at a time or whatever they were comfortable with. After everyone was confident (and by extension, safe) I'd let them do their thing, and then move the targets a bit farther out (but not real far) for those who were doing well. Of course that's a small part of the 6 hours, but that's just the relevant part. |
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Quoted: Yea, the problem with it, is that it is VERY limited, and has a short duration of usefulness in the course of a shooters learning curve. Physiologically it only works before a shooter's subconscious develops a more refined recoil control. That's why results of paper IMHO are a MUCH better indicator. Plus, watching what the gun is doing means you're not watching the shooters face, which is a much better indicator of what's going on. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Physiologically it only works before a shooter's subconscious develops a more refined recoil control. That's why results of paper IMHO are a MUCH better indicator. Plus, watching what the gun is doing means you're not watching the shooters face, which is a much better indicator of what's going on. I don't even know what any of this pretentious jargon means. I'm out. OP and others reading along, hope you get it straightened out. I'm in GA. If you ever want to shoot, send me a PM. |
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Quoted: I don't even know what any of this pretentious jargon means. View Quote I'm out. OP and others reading along, hope you get it straightened out. I'm in GA. If you ever want to shoot, send me a PM. It's exactly what we're talking about. It's not "pretentious" just because you don't understand it, it's based in the very science that allows people to train in the first place. |
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All three components are/should be present in a solid training regimen. 1. Dryfire (where you'll complete the most repetitions, typically) 2. Livefire 3. Diagnostic tests and benchmark drills Yea, the problem with it, is that it is VERY limited, and has a short duration of usefulness in the course of a shooters learning curve. Physiologically it only works before a shooter's subconscious develops a more refined recoil control. That's why results of paper IMHO are a MUCH better indicator. Plus, watching what the gun is doing means you're not watching the shooters face, which is a much better indicator of what's going on. For someone like the OP though, who's going to the range and doing it himself, at least for now, there's no one to watch him. If he does the ball and dummy drill, will he know if he was anticipating recoil? Will he know why? For him, results on paper will tell the story. If shooting at 10' all his hits are POA/ POI but when he hits the dummy round the gun drops then is he truly "flinching" or was it recoil managment? In my classes I just avoided it entirely by having student dry fire a bunch in the classroom, then moving out to the line, and shooting .22's with the more confident students shooting first, and the less watching getting used to the noise. Then when we moved to 9mm, I'd have them all dry fire a bit, the shoot one round at a time, then dry fire as I moved down the line handing out ammo round by round. Once they got used to that with tons of dry fire between individual rounds, I'd give them 2-3 at a time or whatever they were comfortable with. After everyone was confident (and by extension, safe) I'd let them do their thing, and then move the targets a bit farther out (but not real far) for those who were doing well. Of course that's a small part of the 6 hours, but that's just the relevant part. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The ball and dummy drill is one of the best diagnostic tools in your repertoire to check and see if you are employing the same sound techniques in live fire as you are in dry fire. 1. Dryfire (where you'll complete the most repetitions, typically) 2. Livefire 3. Diagnostic tests and benchmark drills Yea, the problem with it, is that it is VERY limited, and has a short duration of usefulness in the course of a shooters learning curve. Physiologically it only works before a shooter's subconscious develops a more refined recoil control. That's why results of paper IMHO are a MUCH better indicator. Plus, watching what the gun is doing means you're not watching the shooters face, which is a much better indicator of what's going on. For someone like the OP though, who's going to the range and doing it himself, at least for now, there's no one to watch him. If he does the ball and dummy drill, will he know if he was anticipating recoil? Will he know why? For him, results on paper will tell the story. If shooting at 10' all his hits are POA/ POI but when he hits the dummy round the gun drops then is he truly "flinching" or was it recoil managment? In my classes I just avoided it entirely by having student dry fire a bunch in the classroom, then moving out to the line, and shooting .22's with the more confident students shooting first, and the less watching getting used to the noise. Then when we moved to 9mm, I'd have them all dry fire a bit, the shoot one round at a time, then dry fire as I moved down the line handing out ammo round by round. Once they got used to that with tons of dry fire between individual rounds, I'd give them 2-3 at a time or whatever they were comfortable with. After everyone was confident (and by extension, safe) I'd let them do their thing, and then move the targets a bit farther out (but not real far) for those who were doing well. Of course that's a small part of the 6 hours, but that's just the relevant part. Thanks for posting the video. Would be nice to know the course of fire, weapon utilized and set up, ammunition used and score. A quality instructor will utilize any and all techniques to instruct their students to be better shooters. It would definitely help the OP to receive instruction from a quality instructor. Once he is taught the proper fundamentals, utilizing several available options and teaching techniques, he should spend time training. Additionally, I would suggest muscle memory for dry fire does not incorporate the same muscle memory as live fire. Dry fire muscle memory deals with proper sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. We could agree these are the most important parts of accurate shooting. Live fire muscle memory incorporates all of the dry fire muscle memory and introdcues recoil management and re-establishing sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. Obviously, proper grip, stance, body alignment, body / shooting position can also be trained utilizing both dry-fire and live fire. Being a wise instructor includes the ability to have an open mind and continue to educate oneself in order to be the best teacher possible. It was nice to see the members of this community try and help the OP. A task that is next to impossible without observing the OP shoot. Yet people were nice enough to try and help. Sad, when some helpful advice gets ripped apart, especially, advice that the OP should seek instruction. Glad to see the OP trying to self-educate by watching videos and scheduling himself for a handgun class later in the month. The OP can pay special attention in your video to your grip and body position, especially your arm extension and rolling of the shoulders forward. The OP should also pay attention in your video to watching the front sight flip up. This helps with speed of re-acquisition of the front sight and re-acquiring the target. It also demonstrates your not flinching. Dry-Fire pays off. To all that have posted trying to help the OP thanks. That is what a shooting forum should be about. I enjoyed reading all the posts, checking out the dot drill posted and watching the videos. To the OP happy shooting! Enjoy your Glock! |
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Still here and reading...watching vids, been dry firing. My official pistol class 1 in in a few weeks.
Haven't had time since last range visit to get back and get some shooting in. Will post pics once I get back to the range..hope next weekend. |
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Still here and reading...watching vids, been dry firing. My official pistol class 1 in in a few weeks. Haven't had time since last range visit to get back and get some shooting in. Will post pics once I get back to the range..hope next weekend. View Quote Glad to hear OP, good luck with the class! Several others have mentioned that you should shoot from a much closer distance on your next trip to the range. Good advice to consider. 3-5 yards would be ample, 7 yards max.If you can post a video of you shooting, that would be great. Team Glock has some good youtube clips. |
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