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Posted: 9/14/2013 9:17:58 AM EDT
So an Agent friend of mine, who is one of the Divisions firearms instructors recently returned from his re-certification process in Quantico. He said that the Agents in Quantico would not directly answer their questions about making the transition from .40 S&W to 9mm. However, each of the Agents that were there to re-certify their instructor certification was issued, ***just for their time on the range***, a new Glock 17 to shoot and qualify with. Furthermore, in the classroom portion of the re-cert there were videos and discussions concerning the ballistic properties of the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and other rounds. Also, it should be noted that the FBI's contract with Glock for the 22 pistol is either expired or about to expire. They will be or are now taking bids for new firearms to replace the Glock 22- allegedly in 9mm.
So what do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change? NOW I say allegedly - not because I do not trust my friend, but because there was no real confirmation made by any of the officials at the Firearms Training Unit in Quantico. However it does seem to be the conclusion of all of the instructors that have been to re-cert lately. As new information becomes available I will update this thread. |
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And the taxpayers go "Doot-da-doot-dadoot..."
Should have never left it, just explored better ammo. |
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So an Agent friend of mine, who is one of the Divisions firearms instructors recently returned from his re-certification process in Quantico. He said that the Agents in Quantico would not directly answer their questions about making the transition from .40 S&W to 9mm. However, each of the Agents that were there to re-certify their instructor certification was issued, ***just for their time on the range***, a new Glock 17 to shoot and qualify with. Furthermore, in the classroom portion of the re-cert there were videos and discussions concerning the ballistic properties of the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and other rounds. Also, it should be noted that the FBI's contract with Glock for the 22 pistol is either expired or about to expire. They will be or are now taking bids for new firearms to replace the Glock 22- allegedly in 9mm. So what do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change? NOW I say allegedly - not because I do not trust my friend, but because there was no real confirmation made by any of the officials at the Firearms Training Unit in Quantico. However it does seem to be the conclusion of all of the instructors that have been to re-cert lately. As new information becomes available I will update this thread. View Quote Ya...not happening. This rumor gets started every year. They are evaluating a change from Glock to HK so they can have the same platform as DHS/CBP, but it will ultimately depend on who can put the better deal together. They are absolutely not changing to the 9mm. They just acquired a fixed priced P.O. for 500,000 rounds of .40. Of course it does not help when people see RFP;'s like RFP-OSCU-DSU1301. These RFP's are for strictly labs and ballistic testing. |
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I'm not saying that it is set in stone, but it is definitely being explored...(at least at the Firearms Training Unit level). Also the 500,000 rounds of .40 is not enough to justify them not switching to the 9mm. You have to think that every Agent qualifies 4 times per year (50 rounds per qualification) or 2,600,000 for every agent to qualify 1 time each per quarter. Trust me on this one, they shoot a lot more than just one qualification course every three months. That is just a drop in the bucket.
ETA: Should have stated above that there are over 13,000 Special Agents Bureau wide. Also, I forgot to mention that it is more likely that they will not "over night" switch out every single Glock 22 if a "new" contract is reached. They will likely start issuing them to the new Agents first (whenever they start having New Agent Classes again) and then slowly start phasing out the Glock 22's. |
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I'm not saying that it is set in stone, but it is definitely being explored...(at least at the Firearms Training Unit level). Also the 500,000 rounds of .40 is not enough to justify them not switching to the 9mm. You have to think that every Agent qualifies 4 times per year (50 rounds per qualification) or 2,600,000 for every agent to qualify 1 time each per quarter. Trust me on this one, they shoot a lot more than just one qualification course every three months. That is just a drop in the bucket. ETA: Should have stated above that there are over 13,000 Special Agents Bureau wide. Also, I forgot to mention that it is more likely that they will not "over night" switch out every single Glock 22 if a "new" contract is reached. They will likely start issuing them to the new Agents first (whenever they start having New Agent Classes again) and then slowly start phasing out the Glock 22's. View Quote Ammo contracts are typical indefinite with a minimum value, the 500,000 round PO was processed yesterday. They will typicality have 25-50 PO's per year on a contract. This same rumor surfaced 8 months ago due to a RFP for 9mm. It has been an ongoing rumor for 10+ years now. They will also NEVER phase in a switch based on new hires, they would do so based on region. |
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These rumors always start off with "I have a friend..." . View Quote They typical always do start from someone with in an agency, but to perfectly honest most Agents have no idea what is going on 80% of the time. Since large decisions are never disclosed to them until after it has run it's course. |
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The idea of the FBI hanging pistols to be like somebody else is pretty funny.
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The other RO and I would like to do the same for our office. Nobody on arfcom would give a shit though
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Based on region? What do you mean by region?
I was meaning that the new contract pistol, if it was different from the Glock 22, would likely begin to be issued to new Agents and slowly pushed out to the field. There was an agent in our local RA that continued to carry his FBI issued Sig 9mm up until about 3 years ago. Now he too carries a Glock 22. So a fixed rate ammo contract for .40 S&W ammo would still be needed until all Glock 22 service pistols were phased out completely. Also, the FBI has 9mm contracts not just for experiments and testing. They also issue the 9mm practice and duty ammo to agents who carry the Glock 26 as a personally owned backup gun. Look I'm not trying to argue that this is a done deal. They could end up staying with the .40 S&W round and Glock could retain the firearm contract with DOJ/FBI. BUT it is being explored and the main consensus of those firearms instructors returning from their re-cert are convinced that there is a strong possibility of this happening in the near future. I really don't have a preference over the two rounds, I own both 9mm and .40 S&W glocks. Nor do I care if Glock wins out the new contract with the FBI. I will still be and always will be a Glock fan. I started this whole thread to see what everyone else's opinion would be about the possible change. Is it a smart move for the FBI to change calibers? Is there some other reason for the change - more cost effective? Some other reason that I'm not thinking of? etc. |
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These rumors always start off with "I have a friend..." . View Quote You are entitled to that opinion, and I can see that some threads would be started by people who don't know or don't care and just want to throw poo just to start a rumor. I can tell you that I am not one of those people. I too am a LEO and wanted to hear from other like minded gun aficionados as to the pros and cons of such a possibility. FLAME ON! |
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Miami taught a few lessons.
5.56>handgun It took a while to get here, but here we are. As long as we don't go European and adopt the .32ACP we should be OK. A handgun should be adequate, but for the love of all that is holy get a rifle ASAP. |
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Miami taught a few lessons. 5.56>handgun It took a while to get here, but here we are. As long as we don't go European and adopt the .32ACP we should be OK. A handgun should be adequate, but for the love of all that is holy get a rifle ASAP. View Quote That doesn't have anything to do with carrying a 9mm as opposed to carrying a .40. |
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That doesn't have anything to do with carrying a 9mm as opposed to carrying a .40. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Miami taught a few lessons. 5.56>handgun It took a while to get here, but here we are. As long as we don't go European and adopt the .32ACP we should be OK. A handgun should be adequate, but for the love of all that is holy get a rifle ASAP. That doesn't have anything to do with carrying a 9mm as opposed to carrying a .40. Yea, I hear you. But I think the primacy of handguns for all occasions is starting to wane in the US. I have both 9mm and .40 Glocks. Which do you shoot better and quicker? Personally I see an advantage to 9mm. I am not enamored of pistols and what they can do. Hit first with an expanding bullet is how I see it. That said I saw a man shot multiple times with 9mm FMJ and the results were what you would expect. Not impressive, even with a lung perforated. I still carry a 9mm. If anything I am an optimistic fool. |
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Based on region? What do you mean by region? I was meaning that the new contract pistol, if it was different from the Glock 22, would likely begin to be issued to new Agents and slowly pushed out to the field. There was an agent in our local RA that continued to carry his FBI issued Sig 9mm up until about 3 years ago. Now he too carries a Glock 22. So a fixed rate ammo contract for .40 S&W ammo would still be needed until all Glock 22 service pistols were phased out completely. Also, the FBI has 9mm contracts not just for experiments and testing. They also issue the 9mm practice and duty ammo to agents who carry the Glock 26 as a personally owned backup gun. Look I'm not trying to argue that this is a done deal. They could end up staying with the .40 S&W round and Glock could retain the firearm contract with DOJ/FBI. BUT it is being explored and the main consensus of those firearms instructors returning from their re-cert are convinced that there is a strong possibility of this happening in the near future. I really don't have a preference over the two rounds, I own both 9mm and .40 S&W glocks. Nor do I care if Glock wins out the new contract with the FBI. I will still be and always will be a Glock fan. I started this whole thread to see what everyone else's opinion would be about the possible change. Is it a smart move for the FBI to change calibers? Is there some other reason for the change - more cost effective? Some other reason that I'm not thinking of? etc. View Quote They are never going to have agents with in the same operating unit or region caring two different calibers. So they are not going to have the "new" guys caring 9mm and the older guys caring .40, it goes against their current policies. If they make a switch it will be by geographical region. |
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They already have Agents in the same offices carrying at least three different calibers, at least theoretically.
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Given the amount of .40 ammo they have procured I highly doubt it. My Aunt is issued .40 & certs with .40.
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Maybe this is off topic but from what I hear from the 9mm cult overwhemingly is it's all about shot placement and shot placement with a 9mm is waaayy easier to accomplish as opposed to a 40SW or 45 ACP. Using that argument why are are most service 9mms high capacity? IE more than 5 or 6 rounds.
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Maybe this is off topic but from what I hear from the 9mm cult overwhemingly is it's all about shot placement and shot placement with a 9mm is waaayy easier to accomplish as opposed to a 40SW or 45 ACP. Using that argument why are are most service 9mms high capacity? IE more than 5 or 6 rounds. View Quote Shot placement isn't a matter of caliber, but rather skill. So that argument from 9mm fanboys is just wishful thinking. On a side note, I have some Marshall buddies that are changing over to the Sigs from the Glocks. |
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Not with their primaries. It is often the subject of any IDIQ contract Q&A's. Their policy is no. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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They already have Agents in the same offices carrying at least three different calibers, at least theoretically. Not with their primaries. It is often the subject of any IDIQ contract Q&A's. Their policy is no. Don't regional SWAT guys have 1911s? And I'm told they have G19s for females. They also have MP5s in two calibers no? |
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Don't regional SWAT guys have 1911s? And I'm told they have G19s for females. They also have MP5s in two calibers no? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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They already have Agents in the same offices carrying at least three different calibers, at least theoretically. Not with their primaries. It is often the subject of any IDIQ contract Q&A's. Their policy is no. Don't regional SWAT guys have 1911s? And I'm told they have G19s for females. They also have MP5s in two calibers no? No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. |
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Unless things have changed, as I understand it, each time the FBI has made a change in duty gun or caliber agents have the option of sticking with the old gun they are used to - as in they are not forced to change to the new gun automatically. There were times in the past where there was a mix of 9mm 38/357 and 10mm at the same time. Even if they did switch - any reasonably accurate reliable gun in any service caliber will do the job.
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Maybe this is off topic but from what I hear from the 9mm cult overwhemingly is it's all about shot placement and shot placement with a 9mm is waaayy easier to accomplish as opposed to a 40SW or 45 ACP. Using that argument why are are most service 9mms high capacity? IE more than 5 or 6 rounds. View Quote This is possibly the dumbest post I've read in a tech forum all year. 1) What what you're suggesting is that because the pistol manufacturers manufacture magazines that hold more than 6 rounds, that it proves 9MM sucks? So Glock makes the 17/19 with "high capacity" because they feel that 9MM will underperform? Even the G20 hold 15 rounds of 10MM. Does Glock do that because they feel the 10MM is inadequate? 2) Most of the 9MM hate comes from people who quote the military's observations, conveniently forgetting that the military shoots ball ammo. |
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. View Quote Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. |
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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They already have Agents in the same offices carrying at least three different calibers, at least theoretically. Not with their primaries. It is often the subject of any IDIQ contract Q&A's. Their policy is no. Don't regional SWAT guys have 1911s? And I'm told they have G19s for females. They also have MP5s in two calibers no? No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. Actually, you are wrong on this one... All division SWAT team members and members of the HRT can carry a FBI issued 1911 (Springfield Armory - not sure which model though) IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. Yes, a 9mm can be issued to a new Agent (male or female) that is having trouble managing recoil and/or unsuccessfully qualifying with a G22. Some Agents were issued the Glock 23 approximately 2 or 3 years ago on a trial basis. This was only done at the academy for new Agents. They stopped issuing them and went back to just issuing 22's. Those agents that were issued 23's had the option to swap back to a 22 or keep their issued 23. And all of the FBI's MP5's that I have seen were all of the 10mm flavor. NOT .40S&W or 9mm. (This goes back to when the FBI issued S&W 10mm pistols as the primary sidearm.) Also, I am not aware of any "policy" regarding the way that new pistol contracts are issued to Agents in the field. Can you reference said policy for me? If it is against policy then the entire FBI has been violating their own policy for years (which is not necessarily surprising to me). Historically, the FBI is slow to accept change and new firearms have never been changed overnight and bureau wide. They have always started with the new Agents at Quantico and then started to exchange the firearms in the field. (This was also confirmed by an Agent) |
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Ya...not happening. This rumor gets started every year. They are evaluating a change from Glock to HK so they can have the same platform as DHS/CBP, but it will ultimately depend on who can put the better deal together. They are absolutely not changing to the 9mm. They just acquired a fixed priced P.O. for 500,000 rounds of .40. Of course it does not help when people see RFP;'s like RFP-OSCU-DSU1301. These RFP's are for strictly labs and ballistic testing. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So an Agent friend of mine, who is one of the Divisions firearms instructors recently returned from his re-certification process in Quantico. He said that the Agents in Quantico would not directly answer their questions about making the transition from .40 S&W to 9mm. However, each of the Agents that were there to re-certify their instructor certification was issued, ***just for their time on the range***, a new Glock 17 to shoot and qualify with. Furthermore, in the classroom portion of the re-cert there were videos and discussions concerning the ballistic properties of the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and other rounds. Also, it should be noted that the FBI's contract with Glock for the 22 pistol is either expired or about to expire. They will be or are now taking bids for new firearms to replace the Glock 22- allegedly in 9mm. So what do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change? NOW I say allegedly - not because I do not trust my friend, but because there was no real confirmation made by any of the officials at the Firearms Training Unit in Quantico. However it does seem to be the conclusion of all of the instructors that have been to re-cert lately. As new information becomes available I will update this thread. Ya...not happening. This rumor gets started every year. They are evaluating a change from Glock to HK so they can have the same platform as DHS/CBP, but it will ultimately depend on who can put the better deal together. They are absolutely not changing to the 9mm. They just acquired a fixed priced P.O. for 500,000 rounds of .40. Of course it does not help when people see RFP;'s like RFP-OSCU-DSU1301. These RFP's are for strictly labs and ballistic testing. Why? The HK-DHS contract is over (thank god), so why would they want to get into a WORSE gun? |
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No more often than you hear of the FBI being involved in a gunfight, they could switch to Beretta Tomcats and it wouldn't matter. Being an investigative agency rather than one of enforcement, they hardly, if ever make an arrest without the local police, sheriff, or Marshall's office holding their hand. No reason to get that Brooks Brothers suit dirty.
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Maybe this is off topic but from what I hear from the 9mm cult overwhemingly is it's all about shot placement and shot placement with a 9mm is waaayy easier to accomplish as opposed to a 40SW or 45 ACP. Using that argument why are are most service 9mms high capacity? IE more than 5 or 6 rounds. View Quote Because quantity is a quality of its own and there's no reason to have less ammo than you can comfortably fit in a grip. By your "don't need quantity when you have stopping powah!" logic you should switch to a .45-70 Derringer. |
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Maybe this is off topic but from what I hear from the 9mm cult overwhemingly is it's all about shot placement and shot placement with a 9mm is waaayy easier to accomplish as opposed to a 40SW or 45 ACP. Using that argument why are are most service 9mms high capacity? IE more than 5 or 6 rounds. View Quote Shot placement for the first rounds is base on skill and training and does not mater what the caliber is. Caliber/recoil, might factor into follow up shots. I carry and use both 9mm and 40 S&W. I shoot both 9mm and 40 S&W and can't tell much difference with follow up shots based on the recoil. Some 9mm +P+ is as snappy to me as the 40 S&W. I think both calibers work well if the right ammo is used. Having said all that, I use a Gen. 3 Glock 19 and a Gen 4 Glock 22. I think that the Gen 4 Glock 22 recoil system helps manage the recoil better than the Gen 3 Glock 22. Regards |
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Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. |
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Why? The HK-DHS contract is over (thank god), so why would they want to get into a WORSE gun? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So an Agent friend of mine, who is one of the Divisions firearms instructors recently returned from his re-certification process in Quantico. He said that the Agents in Quantico would not directly answer their questions about making the transition from .40 S&W to 9mm. However, each of the Agents that were there to re-certify their instructor certification was issued, ***just for their time on the range***, a new Glock 17 to shoot and qualify with. Furthermore, in the classroom portion of the re-cert there were videos and discussions concerning the ballistic properties of the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and other rounds. Also, it should be noted that the FBI's contract with Glock for the 22 pistol is either expired or about to expire. They will be or are now taking bids for new firearms to replace the Glock 22- allegedly in 9mm. So what do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change? NOW I say allegedly - not because I do not trust my friend, but because there was no real confirmation made by any of the officials at the Firearms Training Unit in Quantico. However it does seem to be the conclusion of all of the instructors that have been to re-cert lately. As new information becomes available I will update this thread. Ya...not happening. This rumor gets started every year. They are evaluating a change from Glock to HK so they can have the same platform as DHS/CBP, but it will ultimately depend on who can put the better deal together. They are absolutely not changing to the 9mm. They just acquired a fixed priced P.O. for 500,000 rounds of .40. Of course it does not help when people see RFP;'s like RFP-OSCU-DSU1301. These RFP's are for strictly labs and ballistic testing. Why? The HK-DHS contract is over (thank god), so why would they want to get into a WORSE gun? True the HK is garbage in my opinion, they are all up for renewal. It all depends on who can put the best deal together. |
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They can carry a g21 as primary provided 1. They buy it and 2. They qualify with it. Totally different issue from the other 45s used by special units.
So whoever said their could be 3 calibers floating around at any given office is correct. The regular issued 40s, the 9s for the washouts, and the approved 45 (g21). |
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Miami taught a few lessons. 5.56>handgun View Quote But they blamed one 9mm shot that didn't quite penetrate enough, thus the call for a new caliber. Of course the same exact hit with a 147gr Federal HST or other modern 147gr hp would have expired Platt. Maneuver won or lost that gunfight. Not caliber. |
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There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. The publicly available statement on that is that the Pro model Springers are available to certain personnel who take a transition course. It is an issued weapon. Personally I don't care for 1911s as issue weapons in any capacity. The FBI seems to have a habit of keeping a lot of interesting stuff in their arms lockers at the regional level. If you watch local news reports when they take people to the range for PR reasons, you see interesting stuff. 9/10mm stuff, Thompsons, etc. How much of it is still issued to agents? I don't know. If anything, I would expect the FBI to start buying their Glocks in Gen4 flavor. It's what I would do. PS, found this: http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/fbi-plans-to-spend-100-million-on-ammo/ Earlier this year they were still buying 9mm. |
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But they blamed one 9mm shot that didn't quite penetrate enough, thus the call for a new caliber. Of course the same exact hit with a 147gr Federal HST or other modern 147gr hp would have expired Platt. Maneuver won or lost that gunfight. Not caliber. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Miami taught a few lessons. 5.56>handgun But they blamed one 9mm shot that didn't quite penetrate enough, thus the call for a new caliber. Of course the same exact hit with a 147gr Federal HST or other modern 147gr hp would have expired Platt. Maneuver won or lost that gunfight. Not caliber. Platt was expired, he just didn't know it yet. |
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There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. Digital_Damage: I have no doubt that you are more knowledgeable than I with regard to contracts, proposals, or other types of procurement methods by the US Government. However, I know for a fact that every FBI division SWAT team member and every member of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team has the option of carrying a FBI Issued 1911 pistol - which contradicts your forceful assertion, "None have been issued...". In fact the FBI has purchased in the past and continues to issue to this day 1911 pistols to those appropriate personnel who choose to carry one. (This is just one example) Again you continue to reference "FBI policy" concerning the distribution of said government contracts. Can you reference this policy for me? I have been unable to find any reference to it anywhere and everyone that I have talked with (who are directly affiliated with FBI) contradict your statements. I only ask because you are very forceful with your answers which to me imply that the decision is either yours to make OR that you are a member of the organization with intimate knowledge of FBI protocol. Your comments have continuously steered this thread away from its intended topic - which was listed in my first post: "What do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change?" I welcome the opinion of ALL members who want to participate discussing this topic, including yours! However, unless a specific policy can be referenced I will refrain from participating in any further discussions with you about the types of weapons issued, the manner in which they are procured or issued, and whether or not any these changes will or will not take place. Hopefully we can steer this thread back on track! John_A |
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There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. John A is right. Division SWAT SAs have the option of being issued Springfield Professionals as well as Glock 21, G23 and G22s. HRT seems to be carrying Glocks almost exclusively. With the exception of HRT which has a lot of guns in their arsenal, no SWAT teams are going to be using any handguns other than the above three issued. I think the Les Baers were HRT guns, but they've gone through a lot of different guns. MP5-10s are still issued to SWAT and regular agents, with the former not really using them much except for limited applications. Some 9mm MP5s and SDs are in the gun vaults along with Thompsons and other goodies. I believe 9mm Glocks were issued if new agents were having a hard time making through NAT, but I've never seen it personally. Can't say much about the 9mm switch other than John As buddy's experiences sound familiar. |
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True the HK is garbage in my opinion, they are all up for renewal. It all depends on who can put the best deal together. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So an Agent friend of mine, who is one of the Divisions firearms instructors recently returned from his re-certification process in Quantico. He said that the Agents in Quantico would not directly answer their questions about making the transition from .40 S&W to 9mm. However, each of the Agents that were there to re-certify their instructor certification was issued, ***just for their time on the range***, a new Glock 17 to shoot and qualify with. Furthermore, in the classroom portion of the re-cert there were videos and discussions concerning the ballistic properties of the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and other rounds. Also, it should be noted that the FBI's contract with Glock for the 22 pistol is either expired or about to expire. They will be or are now taking bids for new firearms to replace the Glock 22- allegedly in 9mm. So what do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change? NOW I say allegedly - not because I do not trust my friend, but because there was no real confirmation made by any of the officials at the Firearms Training Unit in Quantico. However it does seem to be the conclusion of all of the instructors that have been to re-cert lately. As new information becomes available I will update this thread. Ya...not happening. This rumor gets started every year. They are evaluating a change from Glock to HK so they can have the same platform as DHS/CBP, but it will ultimately depend on who can put the better deal together. They are absolutely not changing to the 9mm. They just acquired a fixed priced P.O. for 500,000 rounds of .40. Of course it does not help when people see RFP;'s like RFP-OSCU-DSU1301. These RFP's are for strictly labs and ballistic testing. Why? The HK-DHS contract is over (thank god), so why would they want to get into a WORSE gun? True the HK is garbage in my opinion, they are all up for renewal. It all depends on who can put the best deal together. PRAYING for the M&P or GLock, while I would kill to have a 1911, don't see that happening |
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Digital_Damage: I have no doubt that you are more knowledgeable than I with regard to contracts, proposals, or other types of procurement methods by the US Government. However, I know for a fact that every FBI division SWAT team member and every member of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team has the option of carrying a FBI Issued 1911 pistol - which contradicts your forceful assertion, "None have been issued...". In fact the FBI has purchased in the past and continues to issue to this day 1911 pistols to those appropriate personnel who choose to carry one. (This is just one example) Again you continue to reference "FBI policy" concerning the distribution of said government contracts. Can you reference this policy for me? I have been unable to find any reference to it anywhere and everyone that I have talked with (who are directly affiliated with FBI) contradict your statements. I only ask because you are very forceful with your answers which to me imply that the decision is either yours to make OR that you are a member of the organization with intimate knowledge of FBI protocol. Your comments have continuously steered this thread away from its intended topic - which was listed in my first post: "What do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change?" I welcome the opinion of ALL members who want to participate discussing this topic, including yours! However, unless a specific policy can be referenced I will refrain from participating in any further discussions with you about the types of weapons issued, the manner in which they are procured or issued, and whether or not any these changes will or will not take place. Hopefully we can steer this thread back on track! John_A View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No 1911 have been issued in the FBI for the last 30 years. No G19's are issued to women, they can opt for the G23 over the G22. MP5's are of the .40 variant. Is the Springfield Professional Model Model not a 1911? Googling, I see that the 23 is sometimes in favor, sometimes withdrawn depending on reliability. The 19s were issued as late as 2009 at least but have been withdrawn. I know that until recently the MP5/10s were in use regionally because I know a cop from a different agency that horse traded for parts for his and he told me about it. The POW weapon program is almost all gone, the Sigs are gone or going, etc. Enlighten me. So we have at least three pistol calibers and that's if the 9mm MP5s have all been withdrawn. There have been no IDIQ's placed for 1911 in 30 years. There was an RFP that Les Baer and Springfield fulfilled for testing (around 75-100 guns were delivered), they all failed testing. Springfield tried to salvage the contract with a 50k warranty but ultimately the FBI moved on. None have been issued, some isolated teams may use them outside of policy no way of knowing that. I can only go off what has been fulfilled from a contract perspective and what is the current policy. You might be right on the 10mm version of the MP5, I would have to look it up. All the 9mm MP5's are gone, last fulfillment that I found was for .40. Digital_Damage: I have no doubt that you are more knowledgeable than I with regard to contracts, proposals, or other types of procurement methods by the US Government. However, I know for a fact that every FBI division SWAT team member and every member of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team has the option of carrying a FBI Issued 1911 pistol - which contradicts your forceful assertion, "None have been issued...". In fact the FBI has purchased in the past and continues to issue to this day 1911 pistols to those appropriate personnel who choose to carry one. (This is just one example) Again you continue to reference "FBI policy" concerning the distribution of said government contracts. Can you reference this policy for me? I have been unable to find any reference to it anywhere and everyone that I have talked with (who are directly affiliated with FBI) contradict your statements. I only ask because you are very forceful with your answers which to me imply that the decision is either yours to make OR that you are a member of the organization with intimate knowledge of FBI protocol. Your comments have continuously steered this thread away from its intended topic - which was listed in my first post: "What do you think about this potential change? Good, Bad, Indifferent? What do you think their reasoning would be for this change? Is there really an advantage in this possible change?" I welcome the opinion of ALL members who want to participate discussing this topic, including yours! However, unless a specific policy can be referenced I will refrain from participating in any further discussions with you about the types of weapons issued, the manner in which they are procured or issued, and whether or not any these changes will or will not take place. Hopefully we can steer this thread back on track! John_A Sections of the policy can be reviewed in the Q&A sections of the IDIQ. As for the policy documentation it self, it is FOUO/NOFORN. So dissemination is not going to come from me. I'll let the thread continue on its path, but I think any "potential change" is moot since it is not going to happen. |
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Agencies that have moved towards allowing weapon mounted lights are finding serious problems with the Glock 22 that the Glock fix of new mags and springs won't solve. Its common knowledge that a given percentage of Glock 22s will fail when you mount the light. The last time I was on an FBI range, we saw it first hand with their guys using the Streamlights on their Glocks...light on, gun fails...light off...gun works great.
So, many agencies that want to stay with the platform are looking at going to 9mm in order to adress that. Beyond that, pretty much everything DD wrote is incorrect. The Bureau loves their 1911s. They are issued to their regional SWAT guys and other special teams as well as former SWAT Agents who maintain current qual on the weapon. That doesn't mean those folks have to carry it...they can use their Glock...but its available. The Bureau actually has a very good firearms program with some great instructors and a willingness to learn and adapt. Their ballistics research facility is outstanding and sets the standards for LE body armor and ballistic performance. A lot of the high performance projectiles we have today are due to FBI testing and standards. Same for Body Armor. |
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Agencies that have moved towards allowing weapon mounted lights are finding serious problems with the Glock 22 that the Glock fix of new mags and springs won't solve. Its common knowledge that a given percentage of Glock 22s will fail when you mount the light. The last time I was on an FBI range, we saw it first hand with their guys using the Streamlights on their Glocks...light on, gun fails...light off...gun works great. So, many agencies that want to stay with the platform are looking at going to 9mm in order to adress that. Beyond that, pretty much everything DD wrote is incorrect. The Bureau loves their 1911s. They are issued to their regional SWAT guys and other special teams as well as former SWAT Agents who maintain current qual on the weapon. That doesn't mean those folks have to carry it...they can use their Glock...but its available. The Bureau actually has a very good firearms program with some great instructors and a willingness to learn and adapt. Their ballistics research facility is outstanding and sets the standards for LE body armor and ballistic performance. A lot of the high performance projectiles we have today are due to FBI testing and standards. Same for Body Armor. View Quote Love them so much that no new procurements have been made? For a contract that was originally suppose to be for 200 pistols per year and NONE have been fulfilled out side of the original testing group (which very detailed that they failed testing in the IDIQ's) where are they getting them? |
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My aim was not to "hate" on the 9mm. Just bringing up a point many 9mm shooters bring up as it's supposed superiority over the other major calibers. IE Soft Shooting They do but I'm not convinced shooting a 40SW or 45ACP is much more difficult. Unless we're talking compacts then I agree with the fact that you'd rather have a 9 mil. We're talking full size service guns here right?
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Love them so much that no new procurements have been made? For a contract that was originally suppose to be for 200 pistols per year and NONE have been fulfilled out side of the original testing group (which very detailed that they failed testing in the IDIQ's) where are they getting them? View Quote I don't know shit about contracts and procurements but I do know a couple other things. Bottom line is your info is wrong. There are way more than 200 Springer Pros in Bureau issue for starters. |
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I don't know shit about contracts and procurements but I do know a couple other things. Bottom line is your info is wrong. There are way more than 200 Springer Pros in Bureau issue for starters. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Love them so much that no new procurements have been made? For a contract that was originally suppose to be for 200 pistols per year and NONE have been fulfilled out side of the original testing group (which very detailed that they failed testing in the IDIQ's) where are they getting them? I don't know shit about contracts and procurements but I do know a couple other things. Bottom line is your info is wrong. There are way more than 200 Springer Pros in Bureau issue for starters. Let me guess, a "Friend" right? |
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Love them so much that no new procurements have been made? For a contract that was originally suppose to be for 200 pistols per year and NONE have been fulfilled out side of the original testing group (which very detailed that they failed testing in the IDIQ's) where are they getting them? I don't know shit about contracts and procurements but I do know a couple other things. Bottom line is your info is wrong. There are way more than 200 Springer Pros in Bureau issue for starters. Let me guess, a "Friend" right? Lol. Whatever man. |
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DD, you've strongly hinted that you are in the FBI, is that the case?
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